Sikh, Pathan and Gurkha soldiers in the eyes of Winston S. Churchill

[blain2]

The soldierly qualities ascribed to Sikhs also apply to the Punjabi Mussalman serving then for the crown and to this day in the Pakistani Army.

 

[Kataria]

gurkha, garhwali , dogri. nagas only they survive the toughest. their performance doubles when they are at plains as they get more air to breath and at heights the enemy's performance is halved. Even Chinese built oxygen chambers for their soldiers but our boys are raw and born and brought up there.

those people are all very different. you can't compare garhwali with gurkha or nagas with dogri lol

 

[Shahmir]

Afridis are more unruly and better fighters, one of the reason they got special attention was their location, they are adjacent to peshawer and control famous khyber pass. Afridis have attacked peshawer numerous times. Even in 1930s, when khudai khidmatgars were butchered by british, they came down from hills in numbers and created havoc in peshawer cantt, british reinforcements were too late to arrive.

In my childhood we had an Afridi family from FATA living in my neighborhood in Gujranwala, one of the Afridi guy from this family was the fastest bowler in our neighborhood with special tricky slow delivery in his overs that used to knock the batsmen out, I remember his name was Billa as he had blue eyes. He was indeed an agressive bowler. Those Afridis were all good tempered , I did not see any unruliness in them. Then I met an afridi guy in germany and he was also a nice guy. I have heard Shahid Afridi is not "Afridi" but a Syed shah but since their family lives in afridi area so he used afridi surname , is it correct?

 

[Screambowl]

those people are all very different. you can't compare garhwali with gurkha or nagas with dogri lol

you can find many garhwalis in gurkha regiment and many gurkhas in garhwal rifles. The point is they are born and brought at heights over 2000 meter. My own village is at 1800 meter

be it gurkha garhwali dogri or naga, no one is better than them. Be it Jat, Sikh, pathan, or some gujjar gunda of chakwal.

 

[Shahmir]

The soldierly qualities ascribed to Sikhs also apply to the Punjabi Mussalman serving then for the crown and to this day in the Pakistani Army.

Not true, The sikh soldiers were all from eastern punjabi jatt families whereas muslim soldiers were predominantly from Rajput pothoharis. There is no similarity between punjabi Majha/Doaba/Malwa Sikh jatts and Pothohari muslim Rajputs in terms of culture.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

In my childhood we had an Afridi family from FATA living in my neighborhood in Gujranwala, one of the Afridi guy from this family was the fastest bowler in our neighborhood with special tricky slow delivery in his overs that used to knock the batsmen out, I remember his name was Billa as he had blue eyes. He was indeed an agressive bowler. Those Afridis were all good tempered , I did not see any unruliness in them. Then I met an afridi guy in germany and he was also a nice guy. I have heard Shahid Afridi is not "Afridi" but a Syed shah but since their family lives in afridi area so he used afridi surname , is it correct?

Yes i am also told so by Afridis, they are sahibzada syeds.
Depend upon the angle you are looking at , For british Afridis were unruly, for pakistan they are not.
I have interacted with both wazir/mehsuds and afridis. Afridis are very refined and civilized compared to waziristan people and have very high tendency towards education. When you compare them with civilized yousafzais, afridis score higher marks in traits and pashtunwali.

 

[blain2]

Not true, The sikh soldiers were all from eastern punjabi jatt families whereas muslim soldiers were predominantly from Rajput pothoharis. There is no similarity between punjabi Majha/Doaba/Malwa Sikh jatts and Pothohari muslim Rajputs in terms of culture.

Having been around soldiers, and most of them from the Punjab, I challenge anyone to prove me wrong about the following:

"He does not shoot natural, but he learns by patient practice. He is not so tough as the Pathan, but he delights in feats of strength — wrestling, running, or swimming. He is a much cleaner soldier and more careful." barring the parsimonious part because the Punjabi mussalman spends openly.

Churchill was not too off in describing our soldiery from the Punjab.

 

[RazPaK]

Punjabi Mussalmans are also not beghairats.

On 27 January 1915, Colonel Martin announced that the 5th Light Infantry was to be transferred to Hong Kong for further garrison duties, replacing another Indian regiment. However, rumours were circulated among the sepoys that they might instead be sent to Europe, or to Turkey to fight against their Muslim co-religionists.[6] Three Indian officers, Subedar Dunde Khan, Jemedar Christi Khan, and Jemedar Ali Khan, were later to be identified by a court of enquiry as key conspirators in this matter.[7] When the final order to sail to Hong Kong aboard the Nile arrived in February 1915, these and other ring-leaders amongst the sepoys decided that it was time to rebel. On the morning of 15 February the General Officer Commanding Singapore addressed a farewell parade of the regiment, complimenting the sepoys on their excellent turn-out and referring to their departure the next day, without mentioning Hong Kong as the destination. At 3:30 pm on the afternoon of the same day, four Rajput companies of the eight companies making up the 5th Light Infantry[8] with 100 men of the Malay States Guides Mule Battery mutinied. The mostly Pathan sepoys of the remaining four companies did not join the mutiny but scattered in confusion. Two British officers of the regiment were killed as they attempted to restore order. The mutineers divided themselves into three groups. A party of 100 went to obtain ammunition from Tanglin Barracks, where 309 Germans, including crew members from the German light cruiser SMS Emden, had been interned by the British. The mutineers fired on the camp guards and officers without warning, killing ten British guards, three Johore troops present in the camp and one German internee. Three British and one German wounded survived the attack as did eight Royal Army Medical Corps personnel in the camp hospital, including one who managed to escape under heavy fire to raise the alarm. The mutineers tried to persuade the Germans to join them, but many of the latter were shaken by the sudden violence and reluctant to do so. Some German sailors and reservists wanted to join with the mutineers but the majority of internees adopted a neutral stance, refusing to accept rifles from the Indians.[9][10] Thirty-five Germans escaped but the rest remained in the barracks.[6]

1915 Singapore Mutiny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[khair_ctg]

The soldierly qualities ascribed to Sikhs also apply to the Punjabi Mussalman serving then for the crown and to this day in the Pakistani Army.

what are the real reasons Punjabis were comparatively recruited more heavily by the colonialists?

so "martial race" theory is supposed to be fake because any group that was loyal to the colonialists was "martial race". what the colonialists needed was loyalty. but were they also ensuring that anyone that got privilege should have also had like-able qualities in the eyes of the British? i have a general perception that Punjabis are at least minutely more extroverted and athletic than groups to the east in the subcontinent. was there any such perception and did that play any part? @asad71 and @Md Akmal any input?

 

[Shahmir]

what are the real reasons Punjabis were comparatively recruited more heavily by the colonialists?

so "martial race" theory is supposed to be fake because any group that was loyal to the colonialists was "martial race". what the colonialists needed was loyalty. but were they also ensuring that anyone that got privilege should have also had like-able qualities in the eyes of the British? i have a general perception that Punjabis are at least minutely more extroverted and athletic than groups to the east in the subcontinent. was there any such perception and did that play any part? @asad71 and @Md Akmal any input?

I think British also took into account the tribal or clan organization of any tribe for "martial race" designation in addition to "loyalty". I have noticed that most of the tribes designated as "martial" by the british were those who had good tribal organization and a concept of chieftain at some level in those tribes. Being athletic was not much of importance as people CAN be trained to become athletic.

So in my view British designation of martial race status was a sum of two qualities of a tribe,

(1) General loyalty towards british and reliablity
(2) Sound tribal organization of the tribe with some level of control over the tribe/clan in the form of chieftains

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Atleast 2.5 million soldiers of British indian army fought for Queen sahiba in WW2 . I am interested to know about the ethnic composition of british indian army in WW2, that how many of them died for farangis in such a dangerous and bloody war. I read some where that 250,000 gurkhas fought in WW2. What could be the contribution of punjabi musalman, sikh and others.? During my research on poonch uprising that 45 thousands sudhans, who were in the list of martial race, had served in WW2 and took advantage of battle experience and use it against dogra forces. Pashtuns contribution was small, 18 thousands only. They were mostly recruited for militia and scouts for frontier which constitute todays FC

Punjabi Mussalmans are also not beghairats.



1915 Singapore Mutiny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

5th light infantry mostly consisted of pathans and ranghars. Who are these ranghars?

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

what are the real reasons Punjabis were comparatively recruited more heavily by the colonialists?

so "martial race" theory is supposed to be fake because any group that was loyal to the colonialists was "martial race". what the colonialists needed was loyalty. but were they also ensuring that anyone that got privilege should have also had like-able qualities in the eyes of the British? i have a general perception that Punjabis are at least minutely more extroverted and athletic than groups to the east in the subcontinent. was there any such perception and did that play any part? @asad71 and @Md Akmal any input?

Pashtuns were by and large not loyal to british, i read it british report that one third of british indian army was stationed in north west frontier of india to deal with insurgency, each soldier had once served in north west. Still they were in the list of martial race.
In my opinion it was due to tribes like khattaks and peshaweris who were loyal till the last, and even today are major contributors among pashtuns to pak army.
@DESERT FIGHTER

 

[Shahmir]

Atleast 2.5 million soldiers of British indian army fought for Queen sahiba in WW2 . I am interested to know about the ethnic composition of british indian army in WW2, that how many of them died for farangis in such a dangerous and bloody war. I read some where that 250,000 gurkhas fought in WW2. What could be the contribution of punjabi musalman, sikh and others.? During my research on poonch uprising that 45 thousands sudhans, who were in the list of martial race, had served in WW2 and took advantage of battle experience and use it against dogra forces. Pashtuns contribution was small, 18 thousands only. They were mostly recruited for militia and scouts for frontier which constitute todays FC


5th light infantry mostly consisted of pathans and ranghars. Who are these ranghars?

Rangars were muslim Rajputs from Haryana, Delhi and western UP. They used to speak the khari boli dialect (parent dialect of Urdu language) as their mother tongue.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Rangars were muslim Rajputs from Haryana and western UP.

I do have heard about about muslim rajputs of mewat who joined alliance with rana sanga and lodhis against babur. So they are not punjabi rajputs.

 

[Shahmir]

Pashtuns were by and large not loyal to british, i read it british report that one third of british indian army was stationed in north west frontier of india to deal with insurgency, each soldier had once served in north west. Still they were in the list of martial race.
In my opinion it was due to tribes like khattaks and peshaweris who were loyal till the last, and even today are major contributors among pashtuns to pak army.
@DESERT FIGHTER

Loyalty and reliability is needed for recruitment in any field of employment. If I am an employer I will definitely give a lot of importance to loyalty and reliability aspects of a potential employee.