Sikh Light Infantry officers, soldiers clash during boxing match; 3 hurt

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

You are blind so I don't think any kind of eye opener is going to make you see the writing on the wall. But here goes nothing,

Bikram Singh’ Congo Sex Scandal | Indian Military News



All this when Bikram Singh, our current Chief was head of that congo mission. One can see the integrity, character and moral fiber of these 'officers'. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Just take a count of these Mini-Mutinies for the last 100 years and form you own conclusion. That might give you something to chew on.

Your foolish claim that jawans have no decision making ability is laughable. Its obvious to most that they have no decision making RIGHTS nor are they allowed to have more responsibility. The old British Raj treatment of jawan continues. NDA high castes have become the new masters, IAS has become the new babu's.

Continue with your blind hero worship. Don't let facts hit you on your way out.

Every organisation in this world has had scandals.

Oh great eye opened soul can you please enlighten this poor soul of a war fighting Army in this world which hasnt had scandals?

 

[MKI 30]

This is a problem I find in too many Indians. Fear to ask tough questions or take tough stands or make tough choices.

Study finds BSF jawans need better care as the security force fails to provide basic amenities to its men : North, News - India Today
Attari truckers union accuse CWC, BSF men of corruption - Times Of India
SC upholds sack of corrupt BSF officer - India - DNA

Thanks for the links. Indeed its worrying to see corruption in our forces. All I can say in this case is to be proactive and to spot such people before they do any more harm to the country. How it can be done remains a question. But do you think it has infected a large no of people in our forces? Or is it limited to a small number?

How do you think 3.2 million Bangladeshi's have entered India ? (these are official UN figures, real figures are Far Higher)

And this is where I think a need for a strong leader arises. If they are to enter our country it should only be through legal ways otherwise shoot them and if they cry ignore them. I can't think of any reason why our Govt cannot take strong stance on such issues?

How many Army officers have resigned or how many army chiefs have fought hard and Loud for the army jawans pensions ? ZERO.

You know why ? ....because these NDA 'Officers' are more concerned about their promotion and career advancement rather than the lives of their fellow jawans.

And guess what ? Today these Jawans know it too. Expect more such mutinies in the coming days. Don't say I did not warn you.

I am not doubting their courage, only their integrity, character and moral strength.

On the bright side we just saw a big rally of Ex-Servicemen and VK Singh was there too.

The thing is when ones tries to correct the system the Govt comes down heavily on them. Yes i agree Army men should try harder to bring change but it just cannot happen if our Govt is unwilling.

The closure of the intelligence system put in place by VK Singh is one just example.

How can anything be greater than national interests?

 

[Shankranthi]

Every organisation in this world has had scandals.

Oh great eye opened soul can you please enlighten this poor soul of a war fighting Army in this world which hasnt had scandals?

Oh good.... so you are now down to making excuses. Just what the doctor ordered.

 

[Shankranthi]

Thanks for the links. Indeed its worrying to see corruption in our forces. All I can say in this case is to be proactive and to spot such people before they do any more harm to the country. How it can be done remains a question. But do you think it has infected a large no of people in our forces? Or is it limited to a small number?

And this is where I think a need for a strong leader arises. If they are to enter our country it should only be through legal ways otherwise shoot them and if they cry ignore them. I can't think of any reason why our Govt cannot take strong stance on such issues?

On the bright side we just saw a big rally of Ex-Servicemen and VK Singh was there too.

The thing is when ones tries to correct the system the Govt comes down heavily on them. Yes i agree Army men should try harder to bring change but it just cannot happen if our Govt is unwilling.

The closure of the intelligence system put in place by VK Singh is one just example.

How can anything be greater than national interests?

There are orders to shoot in the Bangladesh borders, but that only means BSF can now collect more money for NOT shooting.

This is about have high tolerance for corruption by BSF Leadership a.k.a officers.

Public rallies by ex-servicemen are not a solution for anything.

The real point is about the failure of IA leadership. Failure of IAF leadership and to a much smaller extend, failure of IN leadership.

IA has shown no initiative in corrective its mistake and unless these failures are brought out in public, followed by public humiliation there is no chance of improvement. Transparency is the need of the hour.

 

[Indo-guy]

This is a problem I find in too many Indians. Fear to ask tough questions or take tough stands or make tough choices.

Study finds BSF jawans need better care as the security force fails to provide basic amenities to its men : North, News - India Today
Attari truckers union accuse CWC, BSF men of corruption - Times Of India
SC upholds sack of corrupt BSF officer - India - DNA

How do you think 3.2 million Bangladeshi's have entered India ? (these are official UN figures, real figures are Far Higher)



No. I do not agree. Govt. is responsible for everything that happen in India, but that does not mean they need to be blamed for everything that happen in India.

IA Leadership is squarely to be blamed for their spineless capitulations to the Babu's and politicians to further their career. Non had the character to create a scene, fight for their rights or even have the integrity to resign.

And when leadership fail, you get what you see today.



How many Army officers have resigned or how many army chiefs have fought hard and Loud for the army jawans pensions ? ZERO.

You know why ? ....because these NDA 'Officers' are more concerned about their promotion and career advancement rather than the lives of their fellow jawans.

And guess what ? Today these Jawans know it too. Expect more such mutinies in the coming days. Don't say I did not warn you.

I am not doubting their courage, only their integrity, character and moral strength.

I agree with you . The gap between soldiers and officers is too high . Army just like any other institution needs to remain unified despite division of labor . Hierarchy within instituition should be fair and largely based on principle of division of labour . It's purpose shouldn't be to create mere ranks superiority. Unfortunately all systems in India which are largely gift of British Raj are afflicted by this malice - army being sacrosanct among all institution have remained impervious to changes that have occurred post independence. Naturally the schism between old traditions deeply ingrained within army is in conflict with rapidly changing social scenarios.
We have forgotten to real purpose for such system which was meant for effective governance .

The growing gap between Officers and Jawans is one of the important cause for such incidents .

You nailed it correctly ! the average soldier despite long years of hard work can't aspire to progress beyond honorary Captain post ....this is when new pass out from IMA starts with post of captain ....how anybody can reconcile with inherent imbalance is anybody's guess .

At the same time serving in army has not remained a honorable job that it was once upon a time .

Given cumbersome life in army other job avenues with more profligate life style seem more attractive and cause for growing disillusionment with army personnel.

This is a recipe brewing for disaster ....

Army needs to address it at urgent basis !

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Oh good.... so you are now down to making excuses. Just what the doctor ordered.

I am not an officer of the IA that i will make excuses.I asked you a simple question and i repeat it again.

Can you name any war fighting Army which hasnt had scandals?

Let me help you..US Army?..British Army?...Pakistan Army?..PLA? etc

 

[MKI 30]

There are orders to shoot in the Bangladesh borders, but that only means BSF can now collect more money for NOT shooting.

This is about have high tolerance for corruption by BSF Leadership a.k.a officers.

Public rallies by ex-servicemen are not a solution for anything.

The real point is about the failure of IA leadership. Failure of IAF leadership and to a much smaller extend, failure of IN leadership.

IA has shown no initiative in corrective its mistake and unless these failures are brought out in public, followed by public humiliation there is no chance of improvement. Transparency is the need of the hour.

No initiative? You had the top man of Army coming out in open and yet you saw what happened to him? How do you see the leaking of so many crucial letters literally begging the Govt to be more active in acquisitions? IA is doing what it can and please remember the army takes orders from the Govt, if the Govt is not interested what can the Army do? Shoot the Ministers?

And as far as public rallies are concerned You tell what other option does one have? They have been to every court and exercised every option that the constitution offers and still nothing is being done what do you expect?

The only option left as far as i can see is for the officers to join politics. It already happened with Rathore and more would follow.

 

[Multani]

I wouldn't have jumped in if you hadn't dragged Pakistan into it with stupid comment about Pakistani Punjabis - You should first go and watch Jatt vs Chamar videos on youtube

yup, these non-Muslim Indians still don't know much about Pakistani Punjab or any part of Pakistan really. They don't know about Islam or Indian Muslims either. In Pakistani Punjab, there is no such things as a "jatt mosque", or a "Rajput mosque", or an "arain mosque"

THIS IS the prime difference between Islam and the casteism that exists in India. Even among Indian Muslims, there is no "Syed mosque", no "pathan mosque" etc etc

There can be mosques dominated by an ethnic-linguistic group.

In a Punjabi mosque, all Rajputs, JaTTs, Arain, Chamars, Syeds, Pathans, Gujjars, Kambohs, Shaikhs, Khatris, Buts , Baloch, Mughals pray TOGETHER. Always has been. While Hindus and Sikhs can divide their temples and gurdwaras into castes.

 

[Shankranthi]

I am not an officer of the IA that i will make excuses.I asked you a simple question and i repeat it again.

Can you name any war fighting Army which hasnt had scandals?

Let me help you..US Army?..British Army?...Pakistan Army?..PLA? etc

This is the problem. You see it as an scandal. I see it as a complete failure of leadership, breakdown of discipline, compromise on Integrity, Conduct unbecoming an officer. Just on that congo issue Bikram Sing should have been court martialed and given a dishonorable discharge. Instead he was made the chief of Army.

In fact a lot many officers and jawans should have been court martialed. Instead IA chose to find a few scapegoats and offer them as sacrifice.

After such an incident how much respect will a jawan have for an officer from that regiment ?

IA has a LONG history of sweeping court martial able offences under the carpet. It is one of the contributing factors to this situation.

Now to give a simple answer to your simplistic question, I don't care about Pak army or PLA, I am an Indian and I care about Indian Army and that is what I want to fix.

 

[Shankranthi]

No initiative? You had the top man of Army coming out in open and yet you saw what happened to him? How do you see the leaking of so many crucial letters literally begging the Govt to be more active in acquisitions? IA is doing what it can and please remember the army takes orders from the Govt, if the Govt is not interested what can the Army do? Shoot the Ministers?

And as far as public rallies are concerned You tell what other option does one have? They have been to every court and exercised every option that the constitution offers and still nothing is being done what do you expect?

The only option left as far as i can see is for the officers to join politics. It already happened with Rathore and more would follow.

If you want to know what real Leadership is all about and how Top Defense chief should behave, take a look at Admiral Vishnu Bhagavat.

Now that was an officer with Integrity who chose to say good bye to the institution that he served, rather than accept an order that went against his conscience.

If consistent Defense chiefs had shown such integrity such a situation would not have arisen. They can all still do the same, but they will not. Today's generation of chiefs and officers will always chose their career over reforming the forces.

Moral courage is always FAR greater and Better than Physical courage. IA needs to lean the difference and teach it to their officers.

I have already posted a list of things that can be done.

 

[MKI 30]

If you want to know what real Leadership is all about and how Top Defense chief should behave, take a look at Admiral Vishnu Bhagavat.

Now that was an officer with Integrity who chose to say good bye to the institution that he served, rather than accept an order that went against his conscience.

If consistent Defense chiefs had shown such integrity such a situation would not have arisen. They can all still do the same, but they will not. Today's generation of chiefs and officers will always chose their career over reforming the forces.

Moral courage is always FAR greater and Better than Physical courage. IA needs to lean the difference and teach it to their officers.

I have already posted a list of things that can be done.

What you have said is right but it ultimately brings us to the same point which i have been stressing on from the beginning. Ultimately it is the Govt who is the last and the only Authority to take decisions on such matters. And from Admiral's case what was done? He was sacked!

On one hand you put the blame on the Army but clearly you are not seeing the complete picture. In a way you are saying that our officers should fight with the govt and ultimately be sacked. Is this your definition of integrity? If this was the case soon none would be left to defend the borders.

And did the sacking of the Admiral help in any way? What did he do the change the situation? VK Singh is the only man from the Armed Forces who went as far as sharing stage with a political party although our forces are meant to be A-Political. Is that not significant for you?

If not consider the unit he set up to secure our borders. That is what you call real intent to make change. QUITTING IS NOT THE ANSWER.

If your definition of morals and values is to be sacked(knowing it would happen if they go against govt) rather than continue who would be left to do the job of the army?

In our country the only way to clean up the system is to clean it from inside by joining the system itself. Merely showing your protest and quitting is not the answer.

 

[Shankranthi]

What you have said is right but it ultimately brings us to the same point which i have been stressing on from the beginning. Ultimately it is the Govt who is the last and the only Authority to take decisions on such matters. And from Admiral's case what was done? He was sacked!

On one hand you put the blame on the Army but clearly you are not seeing the complete picture. In a way you are saying that our officers should fight with the govt and ultimately be sacked. Is this your definition of integrity? If this was the case soon none would be left to defend the borders.

And did the sacking of the Admiral help in any way? What did he do the change the situation? VK Singh is the only man from the Armed Forces who went as far as sharing stage with a political party although our forces are meant to be A-Political. Is that not significant for you?

If not consider the unit he set up to secure our borders. That is what you call real intent to make change. QUITTING IS NOT THE ANSWER.

If your definition of morals and values is to be sacked(knowing it would happen if they go against govt) rather than continue who would be left to do the job of the army?

In our country the only way to clean up the system is to clean it from inside by joining the system itself. Merely showing your protest and quitting is not the answer.

If IA Officers starts quitting in mass, the govt. will fall. This IS a democracy. What is more, they would have scarified their careers for a just cause and restored pride and honor to the IA.

And you are right, Admiral Vishnu Bhagavat action in my opinion was a act of Truly great Leader with tremendous Integrity. And by taking such a step he has already shown the path for future IA leadership to do the same. Only they do not have Bhagavat's courage or integrity. This is one of the reason IN is more respected than IA or IAF.

VK Singh's actions post retirement means nothing. Those are actions of an ambitious civilian. His actions when he was Army Chief is what matters.

Yes, for me and for the Rest of the World, Morality is when you protest and refuse to take part in any illegal, immoral or unethical action. That is true test of character.

Fight for a just cause is the answer, sacrificing your life/career/greed for a just cause is mark of a true leader. It is the very essence of inspirational leadership.

I am talking about cleaning the system from the Inside. Take decisions that are correct but unpopular and stick to your guns, come what may. Unfortunately that kind of real courage is missing in action. instead we see cowards leaking letters. Pathetic.

 

[Spring Onion]

They should NOT have schedualed the Match at 12 O, Clock.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

This is the problem. You see it as an scandal. I see it as a complete failure of leadership, breakdown of discipline, compromise on Integrity, Conduct unbecoming an officer. Just on that congo issue Bikram Sing should have been court martialed and given a dishonorable discharge. Instead he was made the chief of Army.

In fact a lot many officers and jawans should have been court martialed. Instead IA chose to find a few scapegoats and offer them as sacrifice.

After such an incident how much respect will a jawan have for an officer from that regiment ?

IA has a LONG history of sweeping court martial able offences under the carpet. It is one of the contributing factors to this situation.

Now to give a simple answer to your simplistic question, I don't care about Pak army or PLA, I am an Indian and I care about Indian Army and that is what I want to fix.

As far as i know about the Congo incident more jawans were involved than the officers.Why dont you see it as a failure of the training to train them properly and educate them about their responsibilities before sending them there?

If it was indeed failure of such a high level you wont be seeing IA always scoring well in tough times and dont you remeber the Uttrakhand floods where the officers lead the men from the front?

Each day we have officers leading from the front and jawans following in Kashmir and North East and infact its funny you say such things shouldnt happen and are a 'big failure' and on the other you say the IA is a vast organisation with 1.3 million souls.

 

[Shankranthi]

As far as i know about the Congo incident more jawans were involved than the officers.Why dont you see it as a failure of the training to train them properly and educate them about their responsibilities before sending them there?

If it was indeed failure of such a high level you wont be seeing IA always scoring well in tough times and dont you remeber the Uttrakhand floods where the officers lead the men from the front?

Each day we have officers leading from the front and jawans following in Kashmir and North East and infact its funny you say such things shouldnt happen and are a 'big failure' and on the other you say the IA is a vast organisation with 1.3 million souls.

Congo incident is only the symptom of a much larger disease. You can try to deflect the blame on the poor jawans for all you want, nobody will buy it.

IA officers has no choice BUT to lead from the front. The Privileges the officers get is so much more than the jawans (like their earlier British counterparts) that the jawans just do not trust their officers enough to go jump into fire just because the officer commanded them too. Where you see heroic effort, I see leadership failure.

No wonder IA officers die at such regular interval. They have become little more than cannon fodder.

The whole idea of US army is to keep the Brain alive (the officer) and use the soldiers to do the actual fighting. IA is more keen on killing the officers and avoid giving more responsibilities to the jawan. Then they cry about officer shortage.

There is nothing more to be said on this topic. There is none so blind as those who choose not to see.