Should the US continue support to Israel?

[500]

Jerusalem isn't complicated. The international world supports East Jerusalem as a Palestinian capital. Israel is alone in rejecting that.

Israel offered to share Jerusalem 3 times (although Arab citizens of Jerusalem would prefer to stay in Israel).

 

[Falcon29]

Israel offered to share Jerusalem 3 times (although Arab citizens of Jerusalem would prefer to stay in Israel).

Jerusalem doesn't belong to Israel. UN resolution 242 will explain this to viewers. Israel no legal right(other than it's own measure of legality) in the eyes of the international world to 'share' Jerusalem. It is an occupying power in Jerusalem. Israel rejects international control over Jerusalem and it rejects a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem. Your post contains nothing to deny that. Are you denying Israel views Jerusalem as its capital?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

He is lying everything.

First of all he says UN refugee sites aren't civilian areas. This is a joke that needs to be dismissed. The UN relayed coordinates of two refugee sites 17 ad 32 times for each.

He says UN proved schools to be military sites. No they didn't, there was a claim that an-ex UN empty facility in evacuated northern portion of Gaza was used for military purposes. No other incident has been claimed by the UN.

He says there fire from the immediate area, no there wasn't. There was fighting in the north in which Israel took losses and began indiscriminate shelling. He says Hamas fired from a hospital, again he's lying. There was no such incident.

No I am saying that they are not "Protected Areas" which is a special status according to the Geneva Convention.
The UN schools have not been properly declared as "Protected Areas".

UN has publicized three times during the conflict that they found rockets stored in schools, making
them a military target. Whether the existence of rockets inside one school affects the status of any other similar school is debatable. Since it has happened three times, some could claim there is a pattern.

I don't say that there was firing from the immediate area. i say that IF there was firing...
I don't say that Palestinians were firing from hospitals. i said that there has been videos released
showing Palestinians firing from hospitals. These videos may or may not be showing real incidents.
Do not put false claims in my mouth.

UN schools have no more protection in International Law than any other house in Gaza.
It has no less protection either, so if it can be shown that no military activity occured inside or in the vicinity
of a school, and that Israelis were aware of this, and the attacks were deliberately targetting the school, then
of course the attack was not legal

You sit in the US and have no way of knowing whether there was firing in the vicinity or not.
You can only base such comments on hearsay from people which has a bias.
The only trustworthy in this case would be fanatical Hamas supporters claiming there WERE firing
or die-hard Zionists claiming there WERE NO firing, or if both sides agree to anything.

Attacking a UN school will of course have a political cost, regardless if it is legal or not.

If Hamas really cared about the life of Palestinians they would have declared a "Protected Zone"
and evacuated ALL military equipment/personel from that area, after going through the neccessary paperwork.

 

[Falcon29]

@A.P. Richelieu

Your post is off topic and filled with rhetoric/misinformation. I will respond to it in a separate thread. Stay on topic and respond to the relevant discussion we were having.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Jerusalem doesn't belong to Israel. UN resolution 242 will explain this to viewers. Israel no legal right(other than it's own measure of legality) in the eyes of the international world to 'share' Jerusalem. It is an occupying power in Jerusalem. Israel rejects international control over Jerusalem and it rejects a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem. Your post contains nothing to deny that. Are you denying Israel views Jerusalem as its capital?

Israel has annexed Jerusalem and views it as its capital, but this has not been recognized by any other state.
Israel has control over Jerusalem.

Jerusalem on the other hand does not "belong" to the Palestinians either.

The Ottoman Empire signed away their rights to Great Britain, which handed
the rights over to the League of Nations, which in its turn gave Great Britain the Mandate.
Great Britain terminated the Mandate, and at the end of the resulting war, Israel
had control over West Jerusalem, and Jordan occupied East Jerusalem.
Jordan has since then relinguished claims to the West Bank, so there is noone with legal claim.

 

[Falcon29]

For viewers who want to see. I already responded to his off topic posts:
@A.P. Richelieu

You say UN refugee sites aren't protected areas? What do you mean by that and where is your source for that? They are civilian areas and it's a war crime, deliberate murder.

Where are these three times you're talking about? They said there was one incident in northern Gaza in an empty site. And that was being investigated by local authorities. What does that have to do with Israeli attacks on UN refugee sites(All examined/searched by UN employees) in which UN coordinated with Israel on locations 17 and 32 times? And which the US, EU, and UN all called 'unacceptable actions', etc...?

What videos are talking about? There has been no such video of firing from hospitals and there's no such thing as rocket fire from the vicinity where a ground operation is taking place. Israel had no excuse for it. There is a thread on fabricated photos/etc...:

UN: Israel is posting false pictures/videos to justify attacks on schools

And they also bombed a playground in the Shifa hospital. I already debunked false IDF contradictory claims for that.

...................
If you notice, Israel has made up four different lies regarding their attack on a playground which killed at least 10 children. Here are the four lies:

Five soldiers confirmed killed, four in mortar attack; Netanyahu warns op may take time | The Times of Israel

Gantz says Hamas responsible for Shifa Hospital blast: First lie

Second lie:
Islamic Jihad behind Shifa explosion — IDF
The army says that the Islamic Jihad is responsible for the blast at the Shifa hospital and at a nearby playground in the Gaza Strip, according to Ynet.

............

Army chief and army spokesmen contradict each other statement.

Lie number 3:
IDF ✔ @IDFSpokesperson Follow
A short while ago, militants in Gaza fired rockets at Israel. 1 of them hit Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza. The other hit Al-Shati refugee camp.

......................

Here they are saying a salvo of rockets were fired but one fell.... yet we know no such rocket can do such massive damage but another contradiction...

Lie Number 4:
Hamas rocket said to have 100 kg warhead
The Hamas Fajr-5 rocket aimed at central Israel, which was fired from a playground outside the Shifa hospital and exploded on the site causing casualties, had at least a 100 kg (220 lbs) warhead, Channel 2 reports
....................

They say a large rocket was fired and exploded on site. This is a lie, since earlier they said a salvo were fired and one fell. Again contradicting each their own statements.
.....

Big rockets don't fail like that and aren't anywhere near this hospital. They are deep north of Gaza.
.............
Notice how we went from story to another to cover up IDF crimes.
.............
Journalists at the hospital all said said it was an Israeli drone strike. Israel deliberately killed children to terrorize the children of Gaza and terrorize the civilian population.

..............
The rest of your post was meaningless 'no on knows for sure', etcc..evasive tactics to escape reality. But, when it comes to Israeli allegations proven to be false you claim they are one hundred percent reliable accounts while sitting in Sweden.

Israel has annexed Jerusalem and views it as its capital, but this has not been recognized by any other state.
Israel has control over Jerusalem.

Jerusalem on the other hand does not "belong" to the Palestinians either.
.

Don't add your meaningless opinions which have no direct relevance to the conversation. You said you prefer Jerusalem be controlled by the UN. I told you Israel opposes that. What do you make out of it?

Then you told us Israel controls Jerusalem, yeah it does, are you trying to get a point across?

And then you try evading the status of Jerusalem by claiming it doesn't belong to Palestinians. Everyone in the international community regards it to be occuipped territory and support East Jerusalem as a Palestinian capital.

 

[500]

Jerusalem doesn't belong to Israel. UN resolution 242 will explain this to viewers. Israel no legal right(other than it's own measure of legality) in the eyes of the international world to 'share' Jerusalem. It is an occupying power in Jerusalem. Israel rejects international control over Jerusalem and it rejects a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem. Your post contains nothing to deny that. Are you denying Israel views Jerusalem as its capital?

There is no mention of Jerusalem in Resoluton 242.

Israel offered to share Jerusalem 3 times (although people who live there prefer to live in Israel) and each time Palestinians rejected.

What videos are talking about? There has been no such video of firing from hospitals

Lie number 3:
IDF ✔ @IDFSpokesperson Follow
A short while ago, militants in Gaza fired rockets at Israel. 1 of them hit Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza. The other hit Al-Shati refugee camp.

https://twitter.com/x/status/494131918732926976

The only one who is lying is u.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

For viewers who want to see. I already responded to his off topic posts:
@A.P. Richelieu

You say UN refugee sites aren't protected areas? What do you mean by that and where is your source for that? They are civilian areas and it's a war crime, deliberate murder.

Where are these three times you're talking about? They said there was one incident in northern Gaza in an empty site. And that was being investigated by local authorities. What does that have to do with Israeli attacks on UN refugee sites(All examined/searched by UN employees) in which UN coordinated with Israel on locations 17 and 32 times? And which the US, EU, and UN all called 'unacceptable actions', etc...?

What videos are talking about? There has been no such video of firing from hospitals and there's no such thing as rocket fire from the vicinity where a ground operation is taking place. Israel had no excuse for it. There is a thread on fabricated photos/etc...:

UN: Israel is posting false pictures/videos to justify attacks on schools

And they also bombed a playground in the Shifa hospital. I already debunked false IDF contradictory claims for that.

...................
If you notice, Israel has made up four different lies regarding their attack on a playground which killed at least 10 children. Here are the four lies:

Five soldiers confirmed killed, four in mortar attack; Netanyahu warns op may take time | The Times of Israel

Gantz says Hamas responsible for Shifa Hospital blast: First lie

Second lie:
Islamic Jihad behind Shifa explosion — IDF
The army says that the Islamic Jihad is responsible for the blast at the Shifa hospital and at a nearby playground in the Gaza Strip, according to Ynet.

............

Army chief and army spokesmen contradict each other statement.

Lie number 3:
IDF ✔ @IDFSpokesperson Follow
A short while ago, militants in Gaza fired rockets at Israel. 1 of them hit Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza. The other hit Al-Shati refugee camp.

......................

Here they are saying a salvo of rockets were fired but one fell.... yet we know no such rocket can do such massive damage but another contradiction...

Lie Number 4:
Hamas rocket said to have 100 kg warhead
The Hamas Fajr-5 rocket aimed at central Israel, which was fired from a playground outside the Shifa hospital and exploded on the site causing casualties, had at least a 100 kg (220 lbs) warhead, Channel 2 reports
....................

They say a large rocket was fired and exploded on site. This is a lie, since earlier they said a salvo were fired and one fell. Again contradicting each their own statements.
.....

Big rockets don't fail like that and aren't anywhere near this hospital. They are deep north of Gaza.
.............
Notice how we went from story to another to cover up IDF crimes.
.............
Journalists at the hospital all said said it was an Israeli drone strike. Israel deliberately killed children to terrorize the children of Gaza and terrorize the civilian population.

..............
The rest of your post was meaningless 'no on knows for sure', etcc..evasive tactics to escape reality. But, when it comes to Israeli allegations proven to be false you claim they are one hundred percent reliable accounts while sitting in Sweden.






Don't add your meaningless opinions which have no direct relevance to the conversation. You said you prefer Jerusalem be controlled by the UN. I told you Israel opposes that. What do you make out of it?

Then you told us Israel controls Jerusalem, yeah it does, are you trying to get a point across?

And then you try evading the status of Jerusalem by claiming it doesn't belong to Palestinians. Everyone in the international community regards it to be occuipped territory and support East Jerusalem as a Palestinian capital.

First you are complaining about things beeing OT, and then you continue the discussion anyway,
even though you created a separate thread.

My response is in the new thread.

Arabic Coffee shop | Page 258

As for Israel opposing International Control over Jerusalem, I remain convinced that this is
the only viable solution, and if that differs from the opinion of the Israeli Government, so be it.

I do not believe that there is a solution which will make both people happy.
This is a solution which will make both people equally miserable, but less so
than any solution which would make the opposing party happy.

The fact that many states would recognize a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem
as its capital does not make any claim to the city legal according to International Law.

Once a state is established and Palestinians have assumed control over the territory,
and is recognized internationally, and especially by Israel and Jordan,
then the recognitions themselves establishes legal claims for the future.

 

[Falcon29]

There is no mention of Jerusalem in Resoluton 242.

Jerusalem is in the West Bank. UN resolution 242 addresses the whole West Bank. [/quote]

IDF videos are hysterical propaganda. The footage of rocket firings from Gaza are both from 2012. Anyways, it claimed it bombed the Wafa hopsital due to rocket fire, not gun fire. IN your edited video we don't see that. IDF made three different excuses to bomb the hospital. Which is different than the Shifa hospital attack I referenced above in my post. Already was debunked anyways:

Israel's video justifying bombing of Gaza hospital was from 2009; audio was from separate incident

First you are complaining about things beeing OT, and then you continue the discussion anyway,
even though you created a separate thread.

My response is in the new thread.

Arabic Coffee shop | Page 258

https://defence.pk/threads/arabic-coffee-shop.298944/page-258#post-6149298

Only did it for people to see my initial response. The rest can be seen on the thread you cited. Now, back to topic.

As for Israel opposing International Control over Jerusalem, I remain convinced that this is
the only viable solution, and if that differs from the opinion of the Israeli Government, so be it.

Only viable solutions are that or East Jerusalem as a Palestinian capital. Israel rejects both, so how are we going to get a viable solution?

The fact that many states would recognize a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem
as its capital does not make any claim to the city legal according to International Law.

International law says everything within the West Bank including present day Jerusalem(Which Israel drew borders of after 1967) are all occuipped Palestinian territory.

Once a state is established and Palestinians have assumed control over the territory,
and is recognized internationally, and especially by Israel and Jordan,
then the recognitions themselves establishes legal claims for the future

There's no 'claim', there are established facts. Saying the West Bank is occuipped Palestinian territory is not a claim but an established fact.

 

[VCheng]

Another evasive response.

Not at all. It is the correct response.

 

[500]

Jerusalem is in the West Bank. UN resolution 242 addresses the whole West Bank.

There is no mention of West Bank in 242 either.

Already was debunked anyways:

Forum post of RFS false flagger proves nothing.

IDF videos are hysterical propaganda.

Only hysterical propagandist is u.

I also brought u non IDF proofs that Hamas fired rockets from Shifa hospital and their misfired rocket killed kids in Shati.

You are a proven liar with zero credit. Just like ur false flag propagandist lover RFS.

 

[VCheng]

I have to admit, I have enjoyed reading the lively discourse between the minds here, specially the exchange of views (though sometimes very heated) between @Hazzy997 , @Syed.Ali.Haider , @AZADPAKISTAN2009 , @LeveragedBuyout , @500 and many more. There's so much history here, perhaps we can start a thread on the history of present day Israel / Palestine ? A comprehensive historical analysis thread that stretches back from ancient epoch to the present epoch.

There have been many such threads before too, but, if you want another one:

 

[Falcon29]

There is no mention of West Bank in 242 either.

Are you going full retard again?

Only hysterical propagandist is u.

I also brought u non IDF proofs that Hamas fired rockets from Shifa hospital and their misfired rocket killed kids in Shati.

You are a proven liar with zero credit. Just like ur false flag propagandist lover RFS.

Keep crying like a baby you IDF mouthpiece. I already proved Israel's account of Shifa hospital attack was contradictory. NBC correspondents were on ground right at the scene and supported Palestinian accounts. And there are thousands of others of cases of Israel deliberately targeting civilians which we all witnessed.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Only viable solutions are that or East Jerusalem as a Palestinian capital. Israel rejects both, so how are we going to get a viable solution?

Simple, Israelis vote in a Government which accepts Jerusalem as an international city,
not part of Israel, nor part of Palestine. Won't happen with the current government of course.

Obviously most of the government of this city would be handled by locals.

International law says everything within the West Bank including present day Jerusalem(Which Israel drew borders of after 1967) are all occuipped Palestinian territory.


There's no 'claim', there are established facts. Saying the West Bank is occuipped Palestinian territory is not a claim but an established fact.

Sources ?

The West Bank may be occupied legally, but does that give Palestinians any legal claim?

 

[500]

Are you going full retard again?

Neither Jerusalem nor West Bank is mentioned in 242. By the way this resolution was rejected by Arab League in Hartoum and Hamas still rejects it.

Keep crying like a baby

You should not cry.

I already proved Israel's account of Shifa hospital attack was contradictory. NBC correspondents were on ground right at the scene and supported Palestinian accounts. And there are thousands of others of cases of Israel deliberately targeting civilians which we all witnessed.

You showed nothing except ur lies. I proved that Gaza terrorists fired from Shifa hospital and that their misfired rocket killed kids in Shati. Just as IDF claimed:

https://twitter.com/x/status/494131918732926976