Should the U.S introduce Pakistan style Ahmadi law for U.S muslims?

[Indus Pakistan]

Guy's the central question is very simple. Can a state regulate, define citizens of a country. Clearly Pakistan has established the principle that a sovereign state can do that as in the case of the Ahmedi.

Therefore it follows USA is within it's sovereign right to define what a American exactly is in the same manner that Pakistan has decided to define what a Muslim is. The basic principle applies to both, that is definition of citizenship or religion.

If you accord the right of a sovereign state to define religion then that right also extends to definition of citizenship. Thus notwithstanding issues relating to US constitution USA has every right to define citizenship and exclude or deport those who fail the test.

 

[Hiptullha]

Interesting to see an "American" poster taking inspiration from a law forced into our constitution at gunpoint by a gang of right-wing religious parties. If Indians are setting these kind of bars for themselves, I don't want to see what India will look like 10 years later. High-caste Hindus selling low-caste Dalit body parts as cures for illnesses, since some Africans do the same thing. Banning Muslims and Sikhs from building religious buildings since some Arab countries are doing it. Shitting on the streets since...oh wait.

 

[Styx]

yes, ban the wahhabis/salafis and very religious sunnis from entering.. shia, ahmadi and non religious sunnis don't pose a risk anyway.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@yolo2016 The essence of this is simple. Do you want ( America ) to drop into the gutter like Pakistan has?

You have as a sovereign nation the legal right to categorize all Pakistani or people of Pakistan extraction or of Pakistani heritage into "others" and then throw them back to Pakistan. However you lose your moral right to any claim of being a civilized country.

Therefore you will lose lot more then gain. Which is why you know and I know this is not going to happen as that would be contrary to liberal democracy. The enforcement of the majority over the minority is not democracy but tyranny.

You want example of that? Go find out what is happening to the Ahmedi in Pakistan. Is that what you want America in 2015 to look like?

I don't think so,

 

[yolo2016]

Guy's the central question is very simple. Can a state regulate, define citizens of a country. Clearly Pakistan has established the principle that a sovereign state can do that as in the case of the Ahmedi.

Therefore it follows USA is within it's sovereign right to define what a American exactly is in the same manner that Pakistan has decided to define what a Muslim is. The basic principle applies to both, that is definition of citizenship or religion.

If you accord the right of a sovereign state to define religion then that right also extends to definition of citizenship. Thus notwithstanding issues relating to US constitution USA has every right to define citizenship and exclude or deport those who fail the test.

Yup, but with the additional caveat of not allowing immigrants from countries we deem high risk too.

 

[Adecypher]

Interesting debate...
Bill Maher Vs. Ann Coulter on Immigration debate

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Yup, but with the additional caveat of not allowing immigrants from countries we deem high risk too.

Not very clever. So you would shaft a Christian, a Athiest, a Zoroastrian, a secularist from Pakistan just to get rid of the Salafi garbage or anti Western nutters? This only makes you marginally better then those monkeys that muppet on about the Ahmedi's and other minorities.

What you need is a fine filter that sifts the chaff from the wheat. After all the chaff has no legal right to move into a country and then b*tch about it.

I am not American but by your standard you would not allow me in either. Not that I would move to America but I think that would be unfair. Don't you think?

Ps. Declaration - I am not a Ahmedi. I am trying to adhere to principle of equality.

 

[anon45]

Yup, but with the additional caveat of not allowing immigrants from countries we deem high risk too.

foreigners are one thing, but the government cannot legally annul the citizenship of any American and ignore their constitutional rights based on their religion. The constitution forbids it, and the courts would challenge it. A constitutional convention to amend it would have to be held first.

Likewise regarding hate speech or political speech. Calling America a terrorist country is allowed. Calling for attacks against the white house and shopping malls are jailable offense I believe, though I am unsure if those are specific enough in intent to warrant being considered a credible threat.

Would probably get you monitored though.

Frankly being caught plotting a terrorist attack against the US govt as an American is plotting treason, a bullet to the brain is an acceptable punishment imo.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

constitutional convention to amend it

Yes given the present climate I would not be surprised if the right wing could pull this off. In particular if any more terrorists acts hit USA.

And here is a thought of the day. The extreme right wing bigots in Pakistan when in the West become the biggest supporters of rights of minorities. Of course back in Pakistan they won't extend that to their minorities.

 

[yolo2016]

@yolo2016 The essence of this is simple. Do you want ( America ) to drop into the gutter like Pakistan has?

You have as a sovereign nation the legal right to categorize all Pakistani or people of Pakistan extraction or of Pakistani heritage into "others" and then throw them back to Pakistan. However you lose your moral right to any claim of being a civilized country.

Therefore you will lose lot more then gain. Which is why you know and I know this is not going to happen as that would be contrary to liberal democracy. The enforcement of the majority over the minority is not democracy but tyranny.

You want example of that? Go find out what is happening to the Ahmedi in Pakistan. Is that what you want America in 2015 to look like?

I don't think so,

Yes- I honestly do. I have a family, my children are precious to me.

Immigrants have no constitutional right to be allowed into the U.S. We can choose whom to allow entry. Our version of "acceptable" muslims. Look at the 3 Pakistani Americans in my original post. We would simply deport them- they are high risk to be radicalized along with Somalis, Bangladeshis, Yemenis as an example. Would you not do the same, and kick me out if I espoused such views in your country? So far post 911 we've had those 3 involved in several attacks or attempted major terror plots in the U.S

Ahmedis are killed and treated like 3rd class citizens in Pakistan for not being "real" muslims.. We won't do that, we will just deport those classified as high risk muslims

foreigners are one thing, but the government cannot legally annul the citizenship of any American and ignore their constitutional rights based on their religion. The constitution forbids it, and the courts would challenge it. A constitutional convention to amend it would have to be held first.

If not born here then a person granted citizenship can have it revoked. As far as born here, as trump says - we would do a constitutional amendment if it falls under national security threat

 

[anon45]

Yes given the present climate I would not be surprised if the right wing could pull this off. In particular if any more terrorists acts hit USA.

And here is a thought of the day. The extreme right wing bigots in Pakistan when in the West become the biggest supporters of rights of minorities. Of course back in Pakistan they won't extend that to their minorities.

Impossible, I don't believe the majority of the right wing wants it, look at how many have criticized Trump.

Regardless Democrats would never go along with it, nor would the media, or the people.

 

[yolo2016]

Yes given the present climate I would not be surprised if the right wing could pull this off. In particular if any more terrorists acts hit USA.

And here is a thought of the day. The extreme right wing bigots in Pakistan when in the West become the biggest supporters of rights of minorities. Of course back in Pakistan they won't extend that to their minorities.

Preach on brother, how true.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Yes- I honestly do. I have a family, my children are precious to me.

Immigrants have no constitutional right to be allowed into the U.S. We can choose whom to allow entry. Our version of "acceptable" muslims. Look at the 3 Pakistani Americans in my original post. We would simply deport them- they are high risk to be radicalized along with Somalis, Bangladeshis, Yemenis as an example. Would you not do the same, and kick me out if I espoused such views in your country? So far post 911 we've had those 3 involved in several attacks or attempted major terror plots in the U.S

Ahmedis are killed and treated like 3rd class citizens in Pakistan for not being "real" muslims.. We won't do that, we will just deport those classified as high risk muslims



If not born here then a person granted citizenship can have it revoked. As far as born here, as trump says - we would do a constitutional amendment if only it falls under national security threat

I can see where your coming from. I think you have absolute right to weed out the "chaff from the wheat". However I don't think you would want a blanket ban. I really don't think even you would. I think the shock and fear is driving your thinking right now which I can understand.

However I agree with you. You have absolute right as a sovereign state to trawl out any garbage. furthermore you also need to stop garbage coming to USA. You need to carefully vet any visitor. Many who give hate speaches or supported the murderer of Salman Taseer go to USA on tours from Pakistan.

The fact is broadly you must fit in within the society you move into.

 

[anon45]

If not born here then a person granted citizenship can have it revoked. As far as born here, as trump says - we would do a constitutional amendment if only it falls under national security threat

It can be stripped if they have joined a subversive group or concealed facts in the naturalization process, but being Muslim alone is not considered being part of a subversive group.
You would first have to classify the religion of islam as subversive.

It being a recognized religion, this doesn't strike me as possible under the 1st amendment.

 

[Adecypher]

@anon45 Sir in what category you would place this speech from Iraq War Veteran...? Is it free speech? Also, if American Citizens collectively finds their Govt. going against their Constitution and its core values, in your opinion is there ANY room given by the Constitution to a common Citizen to question such policies without being labelled as a Traitor or alike...?