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Should the Kurds have a referendum in Turkey?

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This infographic drives a lot of Turkish nationalists crazy:

main-qimg-fa617091e78c74edee00a042c02c50a4


A referendum for the Kurds will probably save Turkey if you think about it.
 
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The right question is (Why should not become an independent country?). I am surprised with this question, its like why should fish live inside water???

Kurd is a big nation divided among four countries Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria. They tried continuously to have an independent country for themselves, but these four counties didn’t let them. Killed them, used different type of weapons against them, tried to genocide them. But they are still fighting these four counties.

Why Turkish have independent country, why Persian have a country, why Arab have more than 26 countries. Kurdish needs a country as well.

Even the greatest Kurdish of our history... Salah ad-Din Al-Ayoubi didn't want never give to his OWN ppl a nation...
 
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The right question is (Why should not become an independent country?). I am surprised with this question, its like why should fish live inside water???

Kurd is a big nation divided among four countries Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria. They tried continuously to have an independent country for themselves, but these four counties didn’t let them. Killed them, used different type of weapons against them, tried to genocide them. But they are still fighting these four counties.

Why Turkish have independent country, why Persian have a country, why Arab have more than 26 countries. Kurdish needs a country as well.
Exactly.

All nations have a right to self-determination.

In any case, this will eventually happen. Borders aren't permanent.

Even the greatest Kurdish of our history... Salah ad-Din Al-Ayoubi didn't want never give to his OWN ppl a nation...
Um, the concept of the nation-state didn't even exist back then.
 
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That richness does not have to do with monarchy or republic, it has to do with stability. For the same reason Iraq was rich in the 70's (stability), I thought Libya under Gadhafi was no monarchy.

By coincidence the monarchies were allied to the US whilst the Arab republics were mostly with the Soviets, Americans won so the monarchies remained secure. Yes Kings/emirs are dictators.

The difference between monarchies in the Arab world (the first attested monarchs in world history can be found in our lands and also the oldest noble families - a testament to how strongly ingrained a monarchic/tribal system is in our lands) is that they are standard-bearers of tradition, religion and have legitimacy through an ancient connection to their land and people and a several generation long history of ruling. Including a tribal connection and having received bay'ah from all leading families, clans, tribes and leading circles in the society. Again a thing that has been the case from generation to generation in those circles be it in the military, clergy, business community etc.
They are mostly highly-educated and serve the country and people first and foremost as otherwise they risk losing their throne. All the military/populistic dictators in the Arab world since WW2 have largely failed tremendously because they were mostly from the lower classes and came to power to serve their own interests and that of their family because they knew that their rule would be temporary. They could only gain legitimacy through sheer violence, intimidation etc. as time was not on their side. They solely consolidated their power through violence, intimidation etc. You could argue that royal families did the same initially (however most Arab royal families that continue to rule today were elected by the people as represented by the leading tribes and leading communities and through military might against foreigners thus giving them legitimacy naturally - example being Napoleon) but it occurred so long ago that it is no longer relevant. Now they rule based on merit.

The Al-Assad dynasty in Syria is actually a monarchy (a young one though) that just uses the title president instead of Malik, Sultan, Emir, Sheikh, Imam etc. which is also why Al-Assad has managed to remain in power (due to the network of loyalties that he inherited in all sectors of Syrian society) despite everything that has gone on in Syria. Not only that he has attached his rule to an ideology (Ba'athism). An alliance that has lasted 40 + years. Saddam for instance on the other hand was a villager and a son of shepherd who left his mother shortly after his birth if I recall. He only knew power and was only loyal to power. It took him years to establish a network so it could even become possible for him to pass the throne to his two sons. Back to Bashar, had he been an ordinary person who took power in 2000 without any family history of ruling, he would have been toppled long ago.

For Western democracy to gain a foothold you need a generational change, an enlightened population (that actually knows what to vote for and why) and strong institutions outside of the state other than the clergy. We all know that Lebanon and Iraq are only democracies on paper like all other countries in the region except for maybe Tunisia although they have their own challenges which is logical.

Of course for a liberal conservative like me the perfect solution would be an elective democracy (if the people are enlightened enough and strong enough - I don't see that anywhere in the Muslim world currently, sadly) with an constitutional monarch that could remain as a standard-bearer and uphold the traditions and serve as a unifier in times of trouble.

I am sure that you would have preferred (looking back in history) a constitutional Iraqi monarchy (as was the case pre-1958) rather than the chaos that we have witnessed since 1958.

There would not be a bunch of useless politicians trying to get their 5 minutes of fame and selling themselves and by default their country and people to a bunch of foreigners depending on the sect they belong to and ideology.

Ask yourself why Southern Iraq is relatively safe despite all the political rivalries (very strong ones). It's the tribes of Southern Iraq that uphold the law and order.

As for Libya, we all see the results of Gaddafi's policies. That would never have happened after 2011 had the al-Senussis ruled until 2011.
 
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Ah the internet, you fantasize all you like here. :pop:
 
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Exactly.

All nations have a right to self-determination.

In any case, this will eventually happen. Borders aren't permanent.


Um, the concept of the nation-state didn't even exist back then.

It did... since before Ayoubi expension.. the Muslim world were fragmented in States/ kingdom and Caliphate... :)
What he did was simple... he got ride of all of those "entities" and made a big one... and it worked well for centurieS...
 
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The right question is (Why should not become an independent country?). I am surprised with this question, its like why should fish live inside water???

Kurd is a big nation divided among four countries Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria. They tried continuously to have an independent country for themselves, but these four counties didn’t let them. Killed them, used different type of weapons against them, tried to genocide them. But they are still fighting these four counties.

Why Turkish have independent country, why Persian have a country, why Arab have more than 26 countries. Kurdish needs a country as well.
Well they have been fighting for over 40years and they have not one single thing to show for it. Not even a single tree,
 
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It did... since before Ayoubi expension.. the Muslim world were fragmented in States/ kingdom and Caliphate... :)
What he did was simple... he got ride of all of those "entities" and made a big one... and it worked well for centurieS...
Yes, they were fragmented, but they weren't nation-states. They were competing dynasties, otherwise known as dynastic states. Back in those days, people identified vertically with their rulers instead of horizontally with their fellow citizens.

The concept of the nation-stated began in Europe after the treaty of Westphalia.
 
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That richness does not have to do with monarchy or republic, it has to do with stability. For the same reason Iraq was rich in the 70's (stability), I thought Libya under Gadhafi was no monarchy.

By coincidence the monarchies were allied to the US whilst the Arab republics were mostly with the Soviets, Americans won so the monarchies remained secure. Yes Kings/emirs are dictators.

That's the point, Libya was rich but living standards were poor, because Qadhafi he was a military general. As opposed to Jordan or Qatar.

It wasn't by coincidence, failure is attracted to failure.

USSR vs USA
Arab socialism vs Monarchism

Compare the current status of the two and you will get your answer.

You anti-Monarchy delusionals will keep squirming til the end of history, while monarchies keep developing and owning you in every front.
 
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Well they have been fighting for over 40years and they have not one single thing to show for it. Not even a single tree,
In the 1970s, the Kurds had nothing.

Ten years ago, they had Iraqi Kurdistan.

Today, they have Iraqi Kurdistan and Syrian Kurdistan.

As for tomorrow...
 
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Yes, they were fragmented, but they weren't nation-states. They were competing dynasties, otherwise known as dynastic states. Back in those days, people identified vertically with their rulers instead of horizontally with their fellow citizens.

The concept of the nation-stated began in Europe after the treaty of Westphalia.

Go say that to the Egyptian at that time... or the Iraqis at that Time or Even the Berbers at that time...

Nation like states existed at that time... :)

In the 1970s, the Kurds had nothing.

Ten years ago, they had Iraqi Kurdistan.

Today, they have Iraqi Kurdistan and Syrian Kurdistan.

As for tomorrow...

They can get neither of them... when you pull the dog tail too much, be rdy to get bitten back
 
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That's the point, Libya was rich but living standards were poor, because Qadhafi he was a military general. As opposed to Jordan or Qatar.

It wasn't by coincidence, failure is attracted to failure.

USSR vs USA
Arab socialism vs Monarchism

Compare the current status of the two and you will get your answer.
Libyan living standards were among the highest in Africa it was said?

You cannot take Qatar in this comparison, 250K people with all the gas there is. Jordan isn't rich it's poor and has been living on handouts from Iraq and elsewhere for decades, what kept them safe is the US presence. Without those 2 factors they'd be in a much worse state.

You anti-Monarchy delusionals will keep squirming til the end of history, while monarchies keep developing and owning you in every front.
History says different, create stability and the country will develop, create instability (caused by war mostly) and there will be problems. How did the Kuwaiti monarchy do when invaded?

GCC development rests on oil, the same Libya was rich under Qaddafi due to resources, the same Iraq was rich in the 70's due to resources and managed to launch wars due to this wealth. As for real development the GCC as well as the whole Arab world are far behind, the UAE is leading and that is simply because they're inviting westerners to do the thinking, might as well call the knowledge-based economy western run there.
 
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The Al-Assad dynasty in Syria is actually a monarchy (a young one though) that just uses the title president instead of Malik, Sultan, Emir, Sheikh, Imam etc. which is also why Al-Assad has managed to remain in power (due to the network of loyalties that he inherited in all sectors of Syrian society) despite everything that has gone on in Syria. Not only that he has attached his rule to an ideology (Ba'athism). An alliance that has lasted 40 + years. Saddam for instance on the other hand was a villager and a son of shepherd who left his mother shortly after his birth if I recall. He only knew power and was only loyal to power. It took him years to establish a network so it could even become possible for him to pass the throne to his two sons. Back to Bashar, had he been an ordinary person who took power in 2000 without any family history of ruling, he would have been toppled long ago.

First, a monarchy doesn't hide behind names or use "Taqyya" (calling itself a republic for example) otherwise it loses one of the most important elements in a monarchy, legitimacy.

Second, every dictator tries to pass the rule to his son, like Mubarak or Saleh. That doesn't mean it's a monarchy.

Third, The assad family (their name was changed from aljahsh btw) were a minority who lived at the highlands in Syria, and we all know the symptom of highlanders vs lowlanders and the insecurities that develop from that, add to that that they were from a different religion all together (Nusayriiah) and that Hafiz was a military general who commited a coup. And you will have a system that can't get furthest from being a monarchy.
 
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In the 1970s, the Kurds had nothing.

Ten years ago, they had Iraqi Kurdistan.

Today, they have Iraqi Kurdistan and Syrian Kurdistan.

As for tomorrow...
Syrian donkey land is still a dream. Assad want to settle a score with them so do the rebels and above all mighty Turkey would want to have a say
 
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Go say that to the Egyptian at that time... or the Iraqis at that Time or Even the Berbers at that time...

Nation like states existed at that time... :)
Well I can't ask them since they're dead lol. I can only rely on what academics say in their works and writings. The nation-state is a new concept, not an old one.

Nonetheless, centers of power almost always existed. Egypt was always a center of political power. In other words, there was almost always a polity based in the Nile River valley. The same goes for Iran, China, India, Japan, etc.

But that's not the same as having a country based on an ethnic identity. That didn't arise until the 1800s.

They can get neither of them... when you pull the dog tail too much, be rdy to get bitten back
It's too late to roll back the gains of the Kurds. They now have a voice in the region, and their voice can no longer be silenced.

What we're witnessing right now are the birth pangs of a new Middle East. Kurdistan is in an embryonic stage right now. One day, the Middle East will give birth to her new baby. :P
 
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