Should Pakistan try to obtain the Su-25 Aircraft for the CAS and COIN Role?

[Philip the Arab]

Sometimes a good Gun run, or a strafing run with rockets can flush out an enemy force. Sometimes enemy are well dug in on a mountain ridge, and while a PGM may destroy that position, there are friendlies nearby.

I give the scenario of 24 Spec. Ops troops assaulting a position, then finding out instead of 12 enemy forces in a mountain town, there are 120. the enemy is all around and you have to provide air support quick (hence the need for a jet) and close, so a CAS plane that can get in close. You maybe able to land bombs near enemy positions, but getting in close allow more effective fire, when you have to positively identify enemy positions.

CAS Planes can also loiter longer and cover an Landing zone with suppressing fire, using unguided rockets but using their ability to get close to hold back the enemy, while reinforcements either evaluate the 24 Spec. Ops troops or reinforce their position and finish off the enemy.

Helicopters can do all of this, but they cost cost several times as much as a simple well built CAS plane.

Imagine a battle like Wanat in Kunar province, Or the Pakistan Army operations in Swat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wanat

In a Indo Pak war nothing like this will happen I assume. Insurgents would have a hard time shooting down any aircraft without MANPADS. In Afghanistan they had F-18s strafing Taliban positions even if they are unarmored.


I heard a story in Afghanistan were two A-10s fired everything they had at a cave base and nothing happened. A few seconds later they heard a boom and found out it was a B-1B.
If troops have a clear target, and a laser designator many missions can be done from high altitudes by launching Mavericks, other lighter class PGMs to avoid friendly casualties.

In the battle numerous platforms were used that performed high altitude bombing.

AH-64 Apache attack helicopters and a Predatorunmanned aircraft drone armed with Hellfire missiles arrived over the base about 30 minutes after the battle began. During the battle, U.S. soldiers were resupplied by UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter with fire support from the AH-64 Apaches. Wounded troops were evacuated to nearby Camp Wright, where members of E Troop, 2/17th Cavalry, 101st Airborne Division would wait to rearm and refuel the UH-60s and AH-64s.[16] Later, a B-1B Lancer bomber, A-10, and F-15E Strike Eagle aircraft were called in. The militants withdrew about four hours later.[3] After the militants retreated, mop up operations followed, and the Taliban withdrew from the town.[8][28]

 

[FuturePAF]

In a Indo Pak war nothing like this will happen I assume. Insurgents would have a hard time shooting down any aircraft without MANPADS. In Afghanistan they had F-18s strafing Taliban positions even if they are unarmored.


I heard a story in Afghanistan were two A-10s fired everything they had at a cave base and nothing happened. A few seconds later they heard a boom and found out it was a B-1B.
If troops have a clear target, and a laser designator many missions can be done from high altitudes by launching Mavericks, other lighter class PGMs to avoid friendly casualties.

In the battle numerous platforms were used that performed high altitude bombing.

AH-64 Apache attack helicopters and a Predatorunmanned aircraft drone armed with Hellfire missiles arrived over the base about 30 minutes after the battle began. During the battle, U.S. soldiers were resupplied by UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter with fire support from the AH-64 Apaches. Wounded troops were evacuated to nearby Camp Wright, where members of E Troop, 2/17th Cavalry, 101st Airborne Division would wait to rearm and refuel the UH-60s and AH-64s.[16] Later, a B-1B Lancer bomber, A-10, and F-15E Strike Eagle aircraft were called in. The militants withdrew about four hours later.[3] After the militants retreated, mop up operations followed, and the Taliban withdrew from the town.[8][28]

If we have enough Attack Helicopters and Fighters to spare, as well as enough PGMs, I'll grant you they are better options then a CAS plane.

But the PAF will have a lot to deal with in a full blown war, (especially in areas where terrain can mask enemy forces) and may not be able to spare Fighters to deliver enough PGMs to make a difference against a large invasion force until days later when the initiative has been lost.

We also wont have enough Helicopters to deliver hellfire missiles or similar missiles. Drones can help out for a limited amount of time, until proper air support becomes available. they can be armed with the Chinese HJ-10 missiles to provide some always available cover to an armored unit.

The Pop-up threat such as a SAM system can destroy an attacking force of Helicopters, which can only pull up to 2 Gs to try to dodge the enemy missile. The A-10 while not a fighter, can turn and dive for the deck to try to doge the missile. A CAS jet can use the terrain, and fly low until it pops up and engages the enemy, and be able to take a few machine gun hits, and still accomplish the mission and safely return to base.

To stay out of this SAM threat you will either have to fire long range PGMs which are expensive, or get in close (and using a mix of tactics and electronics) and deal with the threat and use cheaper PGMs.

Funding or the Lack thereof is a huge issue for the PAF

 

[Philip the Arab]

If we have enough Attack Helicopters and Fighters to spare, as well as enough PGMs, I'll grant you they are better options then a CAS plane.

But the PAF will have a lot to deal with in a full blown war, (especially in areas where terrain can mask enemy forces) and may not be able to spare Fighters to deliver enough PGMs to make a difference against a large invasion force until days later when the initiative has been lost.

We also wont have enough Helicopters to deliver hellfire missiles or similar missiles. Drones can help out for a limited amount of time, until proper air support becomes available. they can be armed with the Chinese HJ-10 missiles to provide some always available cover to an armored unit.

The Pop-up threat such as a SAM system can destroy an attacking force of Helicopters, which can only pull up to 2 Gs to try to dodge the enemy missile. The A-10 while not a fighter, can turn and dive for the deck to try to doge the missile. A CAS jet can use the terrain, and fly low until it pops up and engages the enemy, and be able to take a few machine gun hits, and still accomplish the mission and safely return to base.

To stay out of this SAM threat you will either have to fire long range PGMs which are expensive, or get in close (and using a mix of tactics and electronics) and deal with the threat and use cheaper PGMs.

Funding or the Lack thereof is a huge issue for the PAF

In a war funding should probably be a low concern, private billionaires will give a lot of money to Pakistan and weapons bought illegally.

How about SEAD drones like Harop?

 

[FuturePAF]

In a war funding should probably be a low concern, private billionaires will give a lot of money to Pakistan and weapons bought illegally.

How about SEAD drones like Harop?

When war comes you need to have the weapons in place ahead of time, and months if not years of training with these weapons to perfect a strategy of defense and offense.

Harop would be a good drone for use against enemy air defenses and command posts.

Another factor to consider is the Indian Satellite observation capability. Known Fighter bases and helicopter squadrons will be watched. Rugged CAS planes can be disperse to rough landing strips (hundreds of km front the front) and quickly brought into the fight from tens of small landing strips as to not give away their position. The same can be done with CH-3 Burraq UCAVs from different parts of the road network.

Helicopters can also disperse to austere bases, but they have to be relatively closer to the battlefield (due to limited range and speed) and can be more easily detected and targeted by enemy rocket artillery or enemy fighters.

 

[denel]

Anything we can get on the fast and on the cheap right now, we should go for. I'd say right now we should be requesting China for a squadron of J-10 ASAP.

The benefit of the Su-25 is that it is cheap, and extremely rugged. Designed to be maintained by a farmer with basic tools. It is hard to shoot down even with a SAM! Fast and nimble, it can takeoff from almost anywhere.

yes but you may not remember Aghan war in the 80s'; it was also one the most shot down jets with stingers.

 

[TOPGUN]

Here is a crazy thought why not take older A-5's in storage and update/modify them to the teeth make changes to them and use them for COIN and even in war.

 

[Quwa]

Here is a crazy thought why not take older A-5's in storage and update/modify them to the teeth make changes to them and use them for COIN and even in war.

Depleted airframe life, will probably need to remanufacture or zero-hour them.

 

[TOPGUN]

Depleted airframe life, will probably need to remanufacture or zero-hour them.

True, just a thought.

 

[Armchair]

yes but you may not remember Aghan war in the 80s'; it was also one the most shot down jets with stingers.

There is a book called "Bear Trap" written by one of the ISI officers in charge that indicates why the Stingers were so successful - they were used in a very peculiar way, offensively not defensively. Basically seeing where the aircraft fly and hatching ambushes. 80 percent success rate for the Mujahideen.

The terrain helped, and the nature of these traps helped. In a conventional war over flat lands against India, the environment and scenario is so different that this may not be the case. Specially with standoff weapons, even if we mate it to CIRIT.

 

[Bengal71]

With the draw-down in Afghanistan expected over the next 15 months, the threat of ISIS and other insurgents attacking Pakistani posts along the border and inside of Pakistan may increase. To counter this threat, Pakistan could use its JF-17s for precision bombing and its K-8 for limited CAS, but the threat of enemy fire could damage these planes, which were not designed for this role.

While the first rebuttal to such a proposal will be cost. As stated in this old thread.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/su-25-attack-aircraft.82315/

The SU-25 not only gave deliver a punch, but take one as well. It was designed as a tank killer, so along with dealing with irregular forces, it can be used to repel a limited conventional attack by our eastern neighbor, especially if used in conjunction with EW JF-17s as top cover.

The Su-25 is a 50 year old design, and has recently been battle tested in Syria over the last few years. New Weapons and tactics will also be available to maximize its utility. Russia maybe willing to share its knowledge for a price or an arms sale of PGMs.

The Ukrainians are a Pakistani ally, and have sold 3-4 Su-25s (from their reserve stockpile of 30) to Macedonia. Should Pakistan approach them to buy, a decent number, such as 24 su-25s with a promise for a SU-25 refurbishment contract?

To make up for numbers beyond these 24 Su-25s, PAF fleet of JF-17s can be used from standoff ranges with PGMs. The Su-25s will really be used to get in close, and make sure effective firepower is used on enemy forces, and civilians are not harmed as much as possible.

The pilots need to be protected adequately, and the plane needs to fly for a long endurance to pick off targets of opportunity. It's ability to fly from unprepared fields will allow it to follow the troops any where they travel, shortening reaction times.

Buying from Ukraine opens up the option to customize the planes to use our munitions or any other munition open to us. for example, Arming them with modern precision rockets such as the Turkish one will minimize the cost over using expensive missiles like the hellfire, and allow more rockets to be carried, so more targets an be engaged in a single sortie.

It's out of production and Yak-130 is the replacement for it. If Pakistan wants something in that role then China has L-15 which is a direct competitor of the Yak-130.

 

[FuturePAF]

There is a book called "Bear Trap" written by one of the ISI officers in charge that indicates why the Stingers were so successful - they were used in a very peculiar way, offensively not defensively. Basically seeing where the aircraft fly and hatching ambushes. 80 percent success rate for the Mujahideen.

The terrain helped, and the nature of these traps helped. In a conventional war over flat lands against India, the environment and scenario is so different that this may not be the case. Specially with standoff weapons, even if we mate it to CIRIT.

What about war in the Kashmir region? If push comes to shove, we need to plan for that contingency, not just the Plains of Punjab or the Sands of Sindh.

It's out of production and Yak-130 is the replacement for it. If Pakistan wants something in that role then China has L-15 which is a direct competitor of the Yak-130.

Too Expensive, we are better off bringing back the A-5's, rebuilding them, and upgrading their sensors

 

[Bengal71]

What about war in the Kashmir region? If push comes to shove, we need to plan for that contingency, not just the Plains of Punjab or the Sands of Sindh.



Too Expensive, we are better off bringing back the A-5's, rebuilding them, and upgrading their sensors

What's the price of L-15? Is it more expensive than Su-25?

 

[FuturePAF]

What's the price of L-15? Is it more expensive than Su-25?

I'm not sure how much the L-15 costs, but it is probably at least in the same price range as the original Block I JF-17; and hence to expensive.

The L-15 has the perfect engine though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivchenko-Progress_AI-222

Maybe we should rebuilding the A-5s we have retired, new more modern engines, better armor, and putting a FLIR and a small modest (100-200 T/R modules) AESA for GMTI, SAR, and EW should be the way to go. Something like the IAF Jaguar, but more rugged and Cheaper.

Something build for UAVs or Targeting pods:
https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/products/picosar-1

or something like this pod; but built into the nose

With New Engines and Sensors, and better armor, this little bird could do the Job; sort of how the IAF is keeping its Jaguars and just upgrading the engines and possibly the sensors.
If this planes works out there are more than a 100 PLAAF Air Frames that can also be rebuilt for the PAF or Export, so it might be worth a joint venture with CATIC to consider.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Any one that even suggests PAF to go rebuild and fly the junk A-5 hopefully gets the chance to die flying in it as well. That would be much better than sending our pilots to their deaths in that POS

 

[FuturePAF]

Any one that even suggests PAF to go rebuild and fly the junk A-5 hopefully gets the chance to die flying in it as well. That would be much better than sending our pilots to their deaths in that POS

Why? What is so inherently bad about the A-5 or its design that it can be re-designed and upgraded to fit the CAS/COIN Roles?