Should Pakistan try to obtain the Su-25 Aircraft for the CAS and COIN Role?

[gangsta_rap]

Hell, even a turboprop can do CAS missions adequately like UAE B-250.

I was going to say the exact same thing. Given the range we are dealing with even a turbo prop would do us good.

https://twitter.com/x/status/961059425753612289

 

[Philip the Arab]

Sounds Good on LOC scenario actually
In terms of low rcs

If Pakistan could develop lightweight cruise missile with ok range like Delilah I could see this happening.

I was going to say the exact same thing. Given the range we are dealing with even a turbo prop would do us good.

https://twitter.com/x/status/961059425753612289

I saw that, they have been trying for years to get a customer with no luck but I like the CGI design. I think a cruise missile like Delilah would be needed and launched from behind LOC towards airbases and other strategic locations.

 

[Aasimkhan]

With the draw-down in Afghanistan expected over the next 15 months, the threat of ISIS and other insurgents attacking Pakistani posts along the border and inside of Pakistan may increase. To counter this threat, Pakistan could use its JF-17s for precision bombing and its K-8 for limited CAS, but the threat of enemy fire could damage these planes, which were not designed for this role.

While the first rebuttal to such a proposal will be cost. As stated in this old thread.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/su-25-attack-aircraft.82315/

The SU-25 not only gave deliver a punch, but take one as well. It was designed as a tank killer, so along with dealing with irregular forces, it can be used to repel a limited conventional attack by our eastern neighbor, especially if used in conjunction with EW JF-17s as top cover.

The Su-25 is a 50 year old design, and has recently been battle tested in Syria over the last few years. New Weapons and tactics will also be available to maximize its utility. Russia maybe willing to share its knowledge for a price or an arms sale of PGMs.

The Ukrainians are a Pakistani ally, and have sold 3-4 Su-25s (from their reserve stockpile of 30) to Macedonia. Should Pakistan approach them to buy, a decent number, such as 24 su-25s with a promise for a SU-25 refurbishment contract?

To make up for numbers beyond these 24 Su-25s, PAF fleet of JF-17s can be used from standoff ranges with PGMs. The Su-25s will really be used to get in close, and make sure effective firepower is used on enemy forces, and civilians are not harmed as much as possible.

The pilots need to be protected adequately, and the plane needs to fly for a long endurance to pick off targets of opportunity. It's ability to fly from unprepared fields will allow it to follow the troops any where they travel, shortening reaction times.

Buying from Ukraine opens up the option to customize the planes to use our munitions or any other munition open to us. for example, Arming them with modern precision rockets such as the Turkish one will minimize the cost over using expensive missiles like the hellfire, and allow more rockets to be carried, so more targets an be engaged in a single sortie.

R u In your senses? Do you know the logistical nightmares associated with induction of new aircraft that too Russian origin ones ?

 

[Philip the Arab]

Just imagine this plane with 7 cruise missiles.

These size missiles could surely fit on hardpoints on above aircraft. Indians wouldn't know what hit them due to ultra small RCS.

Data would be easy and could be input from GPS data gathered from Chinese and Pakistani intelligence.
To expand on this thought, even helicopters could launch these.
4 Hellfires is roughly the same size as one Delilah. This means 4 cruise missiles able to launch.

 

[Dubious]

dreams, imaginations...
Is Russia selling it to Pakistan?
Baseless Threads on shikh chilli dreams.
at least post a news/tweet something to start with.

Just my POV, you can allow in any case I just spread propaganda.
@The Eagle @waz @Arsalan @Dubious

It is a legit defense related question open for discussion on a defense forum

 

[Quwa]

If we're talking CAS for COIN/CT, then Turkish Aerospace's Hurkus can be an option. First, the Hurkus-A can work as a basic trainer (replacing the T-37), and the PAF (and/or PAA) can use the Hurkus-C with LGBs, PGBs, AGMs, etc for CAS.

If we're talking about conventional ops CAS (vs armour etc), I'd upgrade the JF-17 Block-1 or 2 with the LKF601E, and get a CBU-105-like weapon, radar guided AGMs (e.g. YJ-9E), SDB-like PGBs, and LD-10 ARMs.

 

[Philip the Arab]

If we're talking CAS for COIN/CT, then Turkish Aerospace's Hurkus can be an option. First, the Hurkus-A can work as a basic trainer (replacing the T-37), and the PAF (and/or PAA) can use the Hurkus-C with LGBs, PGBs, AGMs, etc for CAS.

If we're talking about conventional ops CAS (vs armour etc), I'd upgrade the JF-17 Block-1 or 2 with the LKF601E, and get a CBU-105-like weapon, radar guided AGMs (e.g. YJ-9E), SDB-like PGBs, and LD-10 ARMs.

Hurkus is actually worse than the UAE Bader in terms of carrying and hardpoint capacity.
4 hardpoints

7 hardpoints

Why can't this be used for armor ops? It can fly well above most MANPADS and AAA at 30000 feet. Also from what I understand it was made for use during the air superiority phase according to their own company representatives.

 

[undercover JIX]

It is a legit defense related question open for discussion on a defense forum

Thank you.

 

[khansaheeb]

Just imagine this plane with 7 cruise missiles.

These size missiles could surely fit on hardpoints on above aircraft. Indians wouldn't know what hit them due to ultra small RCS.

Data would be easy and could be input from GPS data gathered from Chinese and Pakistani intelligence.
To expand on this thought, even helicopters could launch these.
4 Hellfires is roughly the same size as one Delilah. This means 4 cruise missiles able to launch.

that is really stretching the imagination -"Just imagine this plane with 7 cruise missiles."

 

[Turan09]

Hurkus is actually worse than the UAE Bader in terms of carrying and hardpoint capacity.
4 hardpoints

7 hardpoints

Why can't this be used for armor ops? It can fly well above most MANPADS and AAA at 30000 feet. Also from what I understand it was made for use during the air superiority phase according to their own company representatives.

Well they both have the same engine power,
Hürkuş: 1600 Horsepower (Turkey)
Calidus B-250: 1600 horsepower (UAE)
So it is weird to see when both of them has the same power, one of them can carry all of this... I looked to Super Tucano to see if it is different.

Super Tucano: 1600 Horsepower (Brazil) it has 5 hard points... (two under each wing and one under fuselage centreline) So I believe 7 hardpoints is a little bit extraordinary and might cause some problems because of weight/power ratio. Of course I might be wrong and maybe enginners of UAE just created a great plane but like I said power/weight ratio is a little bit weird.
Note; It cant carry 7 Cruise Missiles. Not possible.

 

[Philip the Arab]

Well they both have the same engine power,
Hürkuş: 1600 Horsepower (Turkey)
Calidus B-250: 1600 horsepower (UAE)
So it is weird to see when both of them has the same power, one of them can carry all of this... I looked to Super Tucano to see if it is different.

Super Tucano: 1600 Horsepower (Brazil) it has 5 hard points... So I believe 7 hardpoints is a little bit extraordinary and might cause some problems because of weight/power ratio. Of course I might be wrong and maybe enginners of UAE just created a great plane but like I said power/weight ratio is a little bit weird.
Note; It cant carry 7 Cruise Missiles. Not possible.

B-250 is made of 100% composites to reduce weight by 1000kg. Thats why it can carry so much weapons.

that is really stretching the imagination -"Just imagine this plane with 7 cruise missiles."

It could happen. Israeli cruise missiles are 200 kg each and can go 250km. 7 would all definitely fit. You know if this Palestinian problem was solved we could have so much cooperation between us.

 

[Patriot01]

With the draw-down in Afghanistan expected over the next 15 months, the threat of ISIS and other insurgents attacking Pakistani posts along the border and inside of Pakistan may increase. To counter this threat, Pakistan could use its JF-17s for precision bombing and its K-8 for limited CAS, but the threat of enemy fire could damage these planes, which were not designed for this role.

While the first rebuttal to such a proposal will be cost. As stated in this old thread.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/su-25-attack-aircraft.82315/

The SU-25 not only gave deliver a punch, but take one as well. It was designed as a tank killer, so along with dealing with irregular forces, it can be used to repel a limited conventional attack by our eastern neighbor, especially if used in conjunction with EW JF-17s as top cover.

The Su-25 is a 50 year old design, and has recently been battle tested in Syria over the last few years. New Weapons and tactics will also be available to maximize its utility. Russia maybe willing to share its knowledge for a price or an arms sale of PGMs.

The Ukrainians are a Pakistani ally, and have sold 3-4 Su-25s (from their reserve stockpile of 30) to Macedonia. Should Pakistan approach them to buy, a decent number, such as 24 su-25s with a promise for a SU-25 refurbishment contract?

To make up for numbers beyond these 24 Su-25s, PAF fleet of JF-17s can be used from standoff ranges with PGMs. The Su-25s will really be used to get in close, and make sure effective firepower is used on enemy forces, and civilians are not harmed as much as possible.

The pilots need to be protected adequately, and the plane needs to fly for a long endurance to pick off targets of opportunity. It's ability to fly from unprepared fields will allow it to follow the troops any where they travel, shortening reaction times.

Buying from Ukraine opens up the option to customize the planes to use our munitions or any other munition open to us. for example, Arming them with modern precision rockets such as the Turkish one will minimize the cost over using expensive missiles like the hellfire, and allow more rockets to be carried, so more targets an be engaged in a single sortie.

F15 silent eagle is a way more better option for similar role and also for protecting our borders

 

[Philip the Arab]

F15 silent eagle is a way more better option for similar role and also for protecting our borders

Not going to happen and bad choice. Maybe if IK becomes bffs with Donald Trump Pakistan could try to buy used F-15s.

Well they both have the same engine power,
Hürkuş: 1600 Horsepower (Turkey)
Calidus B-250: 1600 horsepower (UAE)
So it is weird to see when both of them has the same power, one of them can carry all of this... I looked to Super Tucano to see if it is different.

Super Tucano: 1600 Horsepower (Brazil) it has 5 hard points... (two under each wing and one under fuselage centreline) So I believe 7 hardpoints is a little bit extraordinary and might cause some problems because of weight/power ratio. Of course I might be wrong and maybe enginners of UAE just created a great plane but like I said power/weight ratio is a little bit weird.
Note; It cant carry 7 Cruise Missiles. Not possible.

Even 200kg size ones?

 

[FuturePAF]

If not the older Su-25, why not build the planned US low-cost successor to the A-10 called the Rutan "ARES" aka The Mudfighter. ARES Stands for Agile Responsive Effective Support.

"ARES is a full-scale proof-of-concept demonstrator that was developed by Scaled Composites as a concept in support of a U.S. Army request for a Low Cost Battlefield Attack Aircraft (LCBAA). The LCBAA design goals were low-altitude, anti-tank, battlefield support with long endurance, and capable of operating outside of improved airfields environment. ARES first flew on February 16, 1990."

Top speed is 466 mph and combat radius is over 1000 km

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaled_Composites_ARES

Engine used is similar in thrust and other characteristics as the one used on the K-8.
In fact the K-8 has a more powerful engine, and the added thrust can allow anyone making an upgraded ARES to up-armor it, in somewhat similar manner as done to protect the pilot and the aircraft as has been done in the A-10.

What do you guys think? Its an actual low cost option built and tested by the USAF, for the very mission we have; Low-intensity as well as anti-armour.

@war&peace @Basel @313ghazi @AUz @Alternatiiv @Meliodas @The Eagle @waz @Arsalan @Dubious @undercover JIX @mingle @GIANTsasquatch @Aasimkhan @Quwa @khansaheeb @Turan09

 

[Mrc]

Develop your own with China and turkey

Initial investment but alot better and cheaper option in long run