Should Pakistan Tell America to Keep Its Aid?

[Mike2011]

More BS from you!

First: SOFT LOANS are easy loans with low interest rates and long repayment periods given to poor nations of the world like India by the World Bank and OECD countries. These are all considered ODA...official development assistance.

Second: You have a serious comprehension problem if you think I am advocating rejecting foreign aid when countries like "Shining India" are willingly accepting such aid in billions of dollars from whoever offers it to them...like the Brits, the Japanese, the Gates Foundation, etc etc.

All I am saying is please spare India from the begging business. We are not professional begger like pakistan.

Where army chief takes first fight to washington to get aid and freebies.
PM and President goes countless times to IMF and world bank for mere 3-5 billion.

 

[Rain]

Most of us have developed a habit of using hearts where we have to use Heads and use heads where we should use Hearts!

International affiars is a science in itself, Every little step we take today might cause a tornado in future, so we have t be very very careful of our moves on international scene.

Neither USA nor China is our chacha, we have relations with them to protect our interests, We need USA and China mainly not to give $$ for our day to day life but for defense equipements, trainings, for there help on internatioal fora to protect oourselves from reginal bullies.

Instead of Barking back on Mad Mullen and Angry Obama, we should put our best minds to work out a solution rather then going for an open confrontation with USA.

IMHO: we should take following steps,

1 first we digg out why Mullen is Mad at Pakistan, what if he is saying the truth, we should take ISI operatives who have Oversteped their mandate, If ISI did not overstepped, then there must be some double agent or black sheep in lower cader of ISI who orchestrated things that defamed Pakistan internationally. Top Brass should move fast and take out the culprit.

2. if Mullen is not factual, then still we need to reworke our approach with USA, because its Our approach with USA that failed to convince them that we are with them vis a vis Afghanistan.

3. No Network is indispensible if It comes to our natonal interest, if USA has some good carrots for US( that a long debate in itself) we should move in to do what the need from us.

4. severing relation with USA or Even downsizing will have a very long time effects. imagine for a moment, India in UN SC, Kashmir out of world fora, USA n EU decaring Kashmir ligitemate part of india, Reduction in world trade for Pakistan, Overeas Pakistani getting rough deal, USA n EU going to equipe India and Afghnaistan against Pakistan, When whole of the world became your enemy, China n KSA wont be able to help you much accept thy wont let you die of bullets, but to die from hunger, disease, poverty, even they cant do it any thing in this regard.

5. We should focus on our own agenda of Devlopment n growth, rather than championing muslims cause all our the world. if we can ensure of Growth rate of 6- 7 % annually, within 10- 15 years, we will be strong enough to take care of our naighbours ourselves.

Thanks

PS: Eritera does not have India as their Neighbour, but we have, India, Afghanistan, among others in our neighbourhood. And Pakistani people wont like to live like Eriterians too.

 

[RiazHaq]

To the ghairat brigade, here's a dose of reality: Pakistan's tax collection declined and fiscal deficit rose to a record 6.6% of gdp in 2010-11, according to Dawn News:

ISLAMABAD, Sept 29: The fiscal deficit during 2010-11 stood at a whopping Rs1.336 trillion — highest in the country’s history and almost 39 per cent of total expenditure and 59 per cent of revenue.

According to consolidated fiscal data released by the finance ministry, the fiscal deficit, excluding payments of electricity subsidies, was Rs1.194 trillion or 5.9 per cent of GDP. However, after inclusion of one-time off-budget electricity subsidy payments of Rs142 billion to Wapda’s power companies, the overall deficit worked out at Rs1.336 trillion or 6.6 per cent of GDP.

During 2009-10, the deficit was Rs929 billion, 6.3 per cent of GDP, and increased by Rs407 billion in a year.

Ironically, revenue collection showed a dismal performance. The total collection declined significantly to 12.5 per cent of GDP against 14.2 per cent in 2009-10, despite a series of additional tax measures introduced in March.

Tax revenue dropped to 9.4 per cent of GDP from 10 per cent achieved in the previous year.

In absolute terms, total revenues amounted to Rs2.253 trillion, an 8.3 per cent increase over Rs2.078 trillion last year.

The tax revenue increased to Rs1.699 trillion from Rs1.473 trillion, by 15.3 per cent.

The growth in total provincial revenue was slightly better at 17.8 per cent.

The total non-tax revenue also declined to 3.1 per cent of GDP from the previous year’s 4.1 per cent, showing widespread erosion of tax collection efforts against the potential.

Even in absolute terms, the non-tax revenue stood at 553.5 billion, about 8.5 per cent lower than the previous years’ Rs605 billion. The federal non-tax revenue declined to Rs491 billion from Rs537 billion — a drop of 8.5 per cent. The provincial non-tax revenues also dropped by 8.5 per cent to Rs62 billion, from Rs68 billion a year ago.

The finance ministry said the total expenditure during 2010-11 increased by 14.6 per cent to Rs3.447 trillion, from Rs3.007 trillion in 2009-10. But the revenue growth of 8.3 per cent did not keep pace with 14.6 per cent increase in expenditure, leading to the huge fiscal deficit.

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Defence expenditure increased by a massive 20 per cent to Rs451 billion from Rs375 billion in 2009-10. Total defence- and security-related grants amounted Rs682 billion (Rs232 billion for security), showing a nine per cent increase over Rs625 billion (Rs250 billion security grants) in 2009-10.

On the contrary, the development expenditure and net lending dropped from Rs653 billion in 2009-10 to Rs514 billion, showing a reduction of 21.3 per cent or Rs139 billion.

The expenditure on the public sector development programme (PSDP) dropped by 11 per cent to Rs461.5 billion from Rs517 billion.

This meant the expenditure on improving the lives of the people posted a sizable reduction when seen in the context of increased prices and deteriorating poverty situation.

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To meet the deficit, the government had to borrow a record Rs615 billion from the banking sector, up Rs311 billion from Rs304 billion in 2009-10.

The non-bank borrowing increased by 8.3 per cent to Rs472 billion from Rs436 billion.

Interestingly, external financing to bridge the deficit posted a reduction of 43 per cent to Rs108 billion from the previous year’s Rs189 billion, showing a falling international confidence to extend financing to an economy battered by a war-like situation and devastating floods.

As a result, domestic deficit financing increased by as much as 47 per cent (Rs311 billion) to Rs1.086 trillion from Rs740 billion.

Highest-ever fiscal deficit at Rs1.336tr | Newspaper | DAWN.COM

 

[Wadera]

Vietnamese had the Soviet and Chinese backing during the Cold War, and they were still decimated by the war. It's taking a long time for them to rebuild.

Iranians have an exportable commodity that earns them lots of petrodollars, and they are getting increasingly isolated.

North Korea is a basket case, isolated and starving its people.

I do not think Pakistan should copy their examples.

There is a saying in Texas: Big hat, no cattle. I think you and the rest of the "ghairat brigade" fit that description well.

I'm glad that your kind are not making policy in Pakistan.

Comprehension or ignorance is the issue with you.

For Vietnam - my point was that Your country did not use Nukes against them ... did you even read what I wrote? It seems not as you have provided answers to only selective points ..

Similarly for NK and Iran - my point is your country did not nuke them or did they? Both of these countries survive and Iran is doing quite well. As for vietnam its economy is growing ..

No one is suggesting Pakistan to copy their examples dude. However, we shouldn't be obliged to take $$ for US .. we have people like you in US .. that is sufficient.

Again - to your point that China did not support Pak as much as USA .. I put forth points which you (conveniently) ignored.

In Pakistan they have a term for people like you - 'parhey likhay jaahil'

As for ghairat brigade .. we are atleast in Pakistan on the ground - unlike someone like you who has happily taken following oath:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

So, at present Pakistan is your enemy boy .. which is why I said .. people like you should just shut it .. acha nahin lagta ..kuch to sharam kar lo ...

 

[RiazHaq]

US Senator Lindsey Graham threatened US military action against Pakistan after Adm Mullen testimony alleging that Pakistan supports attacks by Haqqanis in Afghanistan. Here are some comments by Prof Juan Cole of Univ of Michigan on Graham's statement:

Here are some problems with Graham’s startling suggestion.

The US does not have a prayer of succeeding in Afghanistan without a Pakistani partner. Pakistan is a complex place, and its civilian politicians have a different agenda than its conventional army, which in turn has a different agenda from the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI). Even within the ISI, there appear to be secret rogue cells. Some ISI officers appear to be hooked up with the Haqqani Network and with terrorist organizations such as the Lashkar-i Tayyiba. But Pakistan has lost thousands of troops fighting the more militant Afghan and Pakistani-Pashtun fundamentalist groups, and it is not a task the US could take on by itself.

Pakistan is a nuclear state. The United States has never fought a major military engagement with a nuclear-armed country, and it would be unwise to begin now. Would you really want to take the risk that they might feel cornered and find a way to deliver a warhead against an American target? In the Cold War, the nuclear standoff was called ‘Mutual Assured Destruction’ (MAD). There is no reason to think that such considerations have lapsed or do not obtain when the US is facing a state with a smaller nuclear arsenal.

Pakistan is a close ally of China as well as trying to keep an alliance with the US. Graham’s sort of talk will have the effect of pushing Islamabad further into the arms of Beijing. China is unlikely to stand idly by as one of its major geopolitical assets in its contest with India is taken out by the United States. That is, US-Pakistan war would very likely become US-China war.

Pakistan has a regular army of 610,000 men, and can call up about 500,000 reserves if it needs to. Some 15,000 Taliban in Afghanistan have been pinning down tens of thousands of US troops, so what would happen if they faced over a million?

Pakistan’s population is at least 170 million. The US was defeated by an Iraqi insurgency in a small country of 25 million; imagine how a country 7 times more populous could tie it down.
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So now Iraq has been devastated and made supine and the US has to be on a war footing with Iran in order to “protect” Iraq from the latter. But Iraq’s Shiite government likes Iran and doesn’t see it as a threat, so Graham would be “protecting” Iraq against the will of Iraqis. Moreover, Graham doesn’t seem to think he needs to ask the Iraqi parliament whether it will permit any US troops to remain in Iraq at all.

Graham keeps trying to find a pretext for the next war, dismayed at the prospect of the US slipping into peace. He had tried to get up a war against Iran, but hasn’t had any takers.

Just as Graham wants to keep a division in Iraq because of Iran, he wants permanent bases in Afghanistan. And now he is looking for a fight with Pakistan, representing himself as “protecting” the US-installed Afghan government from Islamabad. But most Pashtuns would choose Pakistan over Graham any day of the week.

Pakistan’s alliance with the US is a marriage of convenience. Pakistan wants to see some groups, such as the Old Taliban and the Hikmatyar Hizb-i Islami, much weakened. But cells within the Inter-Serices Intelligence appear determined to retain the Haqqani Network, based in North Waziristan, as a means of projecting authority into Afghanistan. That emphasis makes Pakistan both an ally to the US in fighting some Taliban, but makes it only a partial ally, since it has its own reasons to use some of those Taliban to project its own authority and prepare for the peace after the US leaves. This difficult kind of alliance is nothing new in US history. Abruptly turning on such a complex ally and starting yet another war is madness.

Lindsey "Dr. Strangelove" Graham & War with Pakistan | Informed Comment

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

the aid is counter-productive; the country does not require it anways

the lobbyists and chambers of commerce between USA and Pakistan should work towards trade promotion; both countries gain that way

---------- Post added at 08:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 PM ----------

All I am saying is please spare India from the begging business. We are not professional begger like pakistan.

Where army chief takes first fight to washington to get aid and freebies.
PM and President goes countless times to IMF and world bank for mere 3-5 billion.

begging business? your country has the greatest number and concentration of beggars in the world....what are you talking about

---------- Post added at 08:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 PM ----------

You will see them if you just open your eyes for eg.

Recently two projects your US aid got you got blown up by TTP at Mehran base.

those (along with the 4-5 others) were paid for, idiot.

 

[Mike2011]

the aid is counter-productive; the country does not require it anways

the lobbyists and chambers of commerce between USA and Pakistan should work towards trade promotion; both countries gain that way

---------- Post added at 08:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 PM ----------



begging business? your country has the greatest number and concentration of beggars in the world....what are you talking about

---------- Post added at 08:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 PM ----------



those (along with the 4-5 others) were paid for, idiot.

Here is the link.. Now Pasha has leading the job with famous bowl.

http://www.dawn.com/2011/07/13/army...-resources-isi-chief-going-to-washington.html
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Gen Pasha’s visit, his first to the US after the May 2 Abbottabad raid that put the relationship into free fall, follows US Centcom Commander Gen James Mattis’s meetings with army chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee Chairman Gen Khalid Shameem Wynne in Rawalpindi on Tuesday.

The exchanges are taking place against the backdrop of a US move to withhold $800 million military aid for Pakistan.

Military sources say Gen Pasha will stay in Washington for a day. Although the exact nature of the visit and its agenda are not known, it is being said here that he is travelling to the US for intelligence coordination.
----
ISI chief in Washington as US warns Pakistan to cut ties with Haqqani network | The News Tribe

Washington: The United States has sharply warned Pakistan that it must cut ties with the Haqqani network based in its tribal region along the Afghan border and help eliminate the militant group’s leaders, according to officials from both nations.

In what amounts to an ultimatum, Obama administration officials have indicated that the US will act unilaterally if Pakistan does not comply, The Washington Post reports.

The message has been delivered to Pakistan in high-level meetings and public statements over the past several days, the report said.

Amidst growing pressure on Pakistan to act against the Haqqani Network, Pakistan ISI chief General Ahmed Shuja Pasha visited Washington DC quietly on Tuesday for a one day visit to meet with his CIA counterpart General David Petraeus.

As first reported by the Post, the CIA officially declined to comment on whether the meeting had taken place. However, sources said that General Pasha had met with David Petraeus, CIA officials at the CIA headquarters in Langley and separately with senior White House officials at Ambassador Husain Haqqani’s residence in Washington before leaving for Islamabad. The Haqqani Network was the focus of their discussions.

The meeting between the intelligence chiefs was the third high level meeting in a week to discuss the Haqqani Network and its presence in Pakistan with US officials urging Pakistan to take action.

On Tuesday, Admiral Mullen had said that he had no doubt that the Haqqani Network was responsible for the attacks on the US Embassy and NATO HQ in Kabul on September 13, and the attack on US soldiers in Wardak on September 11 in Afghanistan. Admiral Mullen also said that the ISI, supporting proxies, must disengage from this part of their strategy.

On Friday, US Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen met COAS General Kayani in Seville, Spain for four hours, where he reiterated his desire for Pakistan to take action against the group.

On Sunday, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton met with Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar in New York, where the first and last thing discussed was the Haqqani Network.

 

[RiazHaq]

There is some backpedaling in Washington on Mullen accusations against Pakistani after a strong reaction in Islamabad. Here's an excerpt from a Reuters' report:

Mullen, the outgoing chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, softened his rhetoric on Friday, telling a ceremony marking the end of his tenure that the U.S. relationship with Pakistan was "vexing and yet vital."

"I continue to believe that there is no solution in the region without Pakistan, and no stable future in the region without a partnership," said Mullen, who sometimes referred to himself as Pakistan's best friend in the U.S. military.

Obama acknowledged on Friday that Pakistan's relationship to the militant Haqqani network, believed responsible for the Embassy attack, is murky. But he urged Islamabad to tackle the problem anyway.

"The intelligence is not as clear as we might like in terms of what exactly that relationship is," Obama said in a radio interview, when asked about the Haqqani network.

"But my attitude is, whether there is active engagement with Haqqani on the part of the Pakistanis or rather just passively allowing them to operate with impunity in some of these border regions, they've got to take care of this problem," he said.

U.S. reassures Pakistan amid anti-American protests | Reuters

 

[Mike2011]

There is some backpedaling in Washington on Mullen accusations against Pakistani after a strong reaction in Islamabad. Here's an excerpt from a Reuters' report:

Mullen, the outgoing chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, softened his rhetoric on Friday, telling a ceremony marking the end of his tenure that the U.S. relationship with Pakistan was "vexing and yet vital."

"I continue to believe that there is no solution in the region without Pakistan, and no stable future in the region without a partnership," said Mullen, who sometimes referred to himself as Pakistan's best friend in the U.S. military.

Obama acknowledged on Friday that Pakistan's relationship to the militant Haqqani network, believed responsible for the Embassy attack, is murky. But he urged Islamabad to tackle the problem anyway.

"The intelligence is not as clear as we might like in terms of what exactly that relationship is," Obama said in a radio interview, when asked about the Haqqani network.

"But my attitude is, whether there is active engagement with Haqqani on the part of the Pakistanis or rather just passively allowing them to operate with impunity in some of these border regions, they've got to take care of this problem," he said.

U.S. reassures Pakistan amid anti-American protests | Reuters

ISI chief in Washington as US warns Pakistan to cut ties with Haqqani network | The News Tribe

We should see recording of ISI chiefs meeting with CIA. That would be fun.

 

[MilSpec]

If Pakistan cuts ties with US what happens to
1.replacement p3c orion?
2.request for Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate?
3. Missiles and ordinance for F16's?
4. Radars and system support and upgrades?

 

[RiazHaq]

Here's a Daily Times report on US aid to Pakistan:

United States Agency for International Development (USAID) disbursed to Pakistan over $2.6 billion in economic, energy, health, education and infrastructure projects under Kerry-Lugar-Berman (KLB) Bill.

“The main emphasis of USAID assistance was on energy production, economic growth, agriculture improvement, education, health and infrastructure projects in the country,” USAID Acting Country Director Karen Freeman told newsmen Friday after function at National Institute of Health here.

“US wants prosperous, secure, stable Pakistan with improvement in all basic needs of life available to people at grassroots level. All USAID funded projects are on track,” she said adding besides producing 400 megawatts (MW) through new projects, assistance is being provided for improving existing energy projects.

She said US government through USAID provided assistance to help strengthen energy sector, enhance economic and educational opportunities available to Pakistanis, improve health care services and meet critical infrastructure needs in remote mountain areas. It also provided substantial relief, recovery assistance, such as when floods devastated the country in year 2010.

Earlier, addressing certificate distribution ceremony of disease control and prevention program, she said outbreak of infection diseases, malaria, tuberculosis, hepatitis threaten well being of entire society. Doctors training will improve their skill to face this challenge. Strong disease surveillance, analysis, control systems are imperative so that infectious diseases are stopped.

Freeman said 31 Pakistani medical officials completed four week training from intensive US funded training program in basic epidemiology designed to strengthen detection, surveillance, analysis of infectious disease at district, provincial level. Program seeks to improve public health, disease control by building capacity in epidemiology, public health surveillance and response, public health laboratories, information systems for disease surveillance. USAID provided $6.78 million for this program since year 2006.

Since inception USAID health program trained 11,000 health care providers, provided 126 ambulances, upgraded 89 community healthcare facilities. In 2010 USAID helped restore 150 schools, trained over 600 teachers in Malakand. USAID offered training in finance to 19,000 women business owners in Punjab, Sindh provinces in 2010. As part of flood relief efforts USAID established 190 mobile health clinics, helped provide safe drinking water to over 1.5 million people daily.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan