Should Pakistan look to buy Saudi Al-Madinah Frigates now that Saudi is Modernizing its Navy?

[FuturePAF]

Saudi Arabia has just signed a deal to spend nearly Half a Trillion on new Arms from America over the next 10 years, with 110 billion immediately. Part of the modernization would naturally mean retiring their "old" equipment. Saudi Arabia has Three Al-Madinah Class Frigates.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/al_riyadh

These Ships have enhanced Anti-Air and Anti-Submarine Capabilities. The Al-Riyadh was commissioned in July 2002; less than 15 years ago. it has 16 Aster 15 missiles and the Command and control /battle mangement systems from Senit 7 and some from Senit 8 (which is used on the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier). It has the Captas sonar system, modern french heavyweight torpedos, modern electronic countermeasures.

While not the latest technology, if Pakistan can acquire/purchase these ships; it would allow pakistan to operate near modern european warships at a fraction of the cost of buying a new european ship with nearly of the capabilities of a fremm frigate.

if a deal like this goes through pakistan could look into expanding the air defense capabilty with 16 more vls tubes for aster 30 and upgrading the main radar with something like thales integrated mast with aesa radars.

a fleet of even three frigates such as that would give Pakistan a decent qualitative force
It is something Pakistan and its navy should look into based on the arms deal Saudi is planning with the US.

BTW; I'm sure these ships will have the best air conditioning and automation to ease work load on the crew; and that too can be helpful in modernizing the Pakistan Navy.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-and-saudi-companies-sign-deals-worth-at-least-43-billion-1495287762
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...abilities-will-balloon-thanks-to-us-arms-deal
http://cimsec.org/saudi-navy-expansion-program/18474

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

PN Should aim for indigenization of surface vessels instead.
They have acquired old platforms since the start and due to which the warship building could not start in country.

Now it's time to start working on an indigenous design along with the Milgem, so by the time the Milgem project ends, PN starts construction of it's own frigate.

 

[Imad.Khan]

PN Should aim for indigenization of surface vessels instead.
They have acquired old platforms since the start and due to which the warship building could not start in country.

Now it's time to start working on an indigenous design along with the Milgem, so by the time the Milgem project ends, PN starts construction of it's own frigate.

I agree, enough buying of old 2nd hand equipment from other nations. Its time to start working on our own indigenous projects or joint projects with friendly nations.

 

[war&peace]

PN Should aim for indigenization of surface vessels instead.
They have acquired old platforms since the start and due to which the warship building could not start in country.

Now it's time to start working on an indigenous design along with the Milgem, so by the time the Milgem project ends, PN starts construction of it's own frigate.

Exactly, the best solution for PNS is to focus on ToTs and JVs with friendly countries like China, Turkey, Italy and others for different systems and various subsystems and design the warships that are totally suited to its current and future needs. Old systems have limited life and obsolete weaponry. If they start now, may be after a decade or two, Pakistan may even be exporting to other countries.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Exactly, the best solution for PNS is to focus on ToTs and JV with friendly countries like China, Turkey, Italy and others for different systems and various subsystems and design the warships that are totally suited to its current and future needs. Old systems have limited life and obsolete weaponry. If they start now, may be after a decade or two, Pakistan may even be exporting to other countries.

We have the experience from the F22Ps and now the new tanker.
If we can go ahead with our own design now, it will materialise in the next 5 - 7 years.

 

[war&peace]

We have the experience from the F22Ps and now the new tanker.
If we can go ahead with our own design now, it will materialise in the next 5 - 7 years.

That's good but if we can get helping hand where we lack the expertise, it can greatly accelerate the pace of development and furthermore, we run a few programs in parallel to address the urgent needs and future requirements.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Saudi Arabia won't be retiring the al Riyadh-class frigates anytime soon, those are actually their modern surface warships. The Lockheed MMSC will replace the al Madinah-class and/or Badr-class first.

 

[tarrar]

There is no need for Pakistan to buy old stuff. Pakistan should buy modern Navy ships from China or Italy, Pakistan is already buying new Corvettes & new frigates from China.

PN should now try to acquire bigger & modern navy ships either from China or Italy. No more old stuff.

 

[khail007]

PN Should aim for indigenization of surface vessels instead.
They have acquired old platforms since the start and due to which the warship building could not start in country.

Now it's time to start working on an indigenous design along with the Milgem, so by the time the Milgem project ends, PN starts construction of it's own frigate.

Sir G, you are absolutely right. Indignity will improve skill, knowledge and economy. It will improve the employment condition will open opportunities for export and help bring investment for other projects. Decisions to produce/manufacture Super Mushak and JF-17 have started bearing fruit.

 

[S.Y.A]

The navy should go for something like the Formidable-class frigates of Singapore navy. They are just awesome. They are armed with 8 anti-ship cruise missiles, with 32 SAMs, quite stealthy, as well as having a high degree of automation and weigh only 3200 tonnes.

Or a cheaper alternative can be the Valour class frigates of South Africa, can be perfect for the navy if it decides to look somewhere other than China or the US.

This is what Algeria bought from Germany:
MEKO A-200AN

The link doesn't mention the price tag, would be great if anyone can dig it up

Found something:
"In early 2012 the Algerian Navy signed a €2.176 million (US$2.886 million) contract with Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) for MEKO A-200 class frigates. Although TKMS did not initially confirm details of the deal, which was signed on 26 March 2012, the seemingly high price was said to cover the full combat system for four ships and six AgustaWestland Super Lynx helicopters, as well as support and training. The German shipyard will supply two Meko frigates to Algeria including six helicopters. The contract includes the construction of a dockyard in Algeria for the local assembly of two more frigates."

Source: Algerian Navy - Modernisation

I think that they may have made a typing error, typed a decimal instead of a comma. Anyways the price seems to ~3 billion USD, for 2 heavily armed modern frigates as well as some modern helicopters. Pretty expensive, the Valour class for South Africa appears to be cheaper.

There was a thread on the forum about it too:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/meko-a-200-an-frigate-for-algerian-navy-to-start-sea-trials.398162/

Algeria ordered two MEKO A-200 anti-air frigates from ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) of Germany on March 26 2012. The deal is worth 2.176 billion Euros (US$2.8 billion), including 2+2 Meko A200 Frigates and six helicopters, as well as the fees of maintenance of equipment and training of Algerian sailors. The German shipyard will deliver two Meko frigates to Algeria, including six helicopters. The deal also includes the construction of a dockyard in Algeria for the local assembly of two more frigates.

So, 2.8 billion USD, for 4 frigates(systems and maintenance included), 6 helis, plus dockyard construction, not too expensive after all.

 

[Penguin]

Saudi Arabia has just signed a deal to spend nearly Half a Trillion on new Arms from America over the next 10 years, with 110 billion immediately. Part of the modernization would naturally mean retiring their "old" equipment. Saudi Arabia has Three Al-Madinah Class Frigates.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/al_riyadh

These Ships have enhanced Anti-Air and Anti-Submarine Capabilities. The Al-Riyadh was commissioned in July 2002; less than 15 years ago. it has 16 Aster 15 missiles and the Command and control /battle mangement systems from Senit 7 and some from Senit 8 (which is used on the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier). It has the Captas sonar system, modern french heavyweight torpedos, modern electronic countermeasures.

The 2,600 ton Al Madina class is significantly (10 years) older and smaller thant the Al Riyadh class (a 4,725t lengthened version of the 3,600 ton LaFayette). Their armament is somewhat outdated (2x twin 40mm Dardo, 1x single CL 100mm /55 compact gun, 8 Otomat mk 2 anti ship missiles, 1 8-Cell Crotale surface to air missile launcher (24 missiles total), four 550 mm torpedo tubes (French F17P torpedoes), 1 x SA365F Dauphin helicopter.
While these could be modernized, one should realize these today are 32 years old and the Saudi's will extend their service life a bit further before they eventually pay off and decommission. By that time they will be approaching 35-40. Even if modernized, this means very limited service life left i.e. probably not worth any serious modernization.

The Al-Riyadh ships could be a different matter IF they are retired from Saudi service within the next 5-7 years. THEN (and IMHO only then) it may be interesting to refit these, replacing 16 ASTER-15 (30km) with 16 Aster-30 (120km) and the 70km Exocet MM40 block II with the 180km block 3 or e.g. the 280km C602. Judging from the ship's size and space forward of the bridge, it may be possible to add 2 more 8-round Sylver VLSs. One or two FL300N launchers could provide usefull anti-air backup (1x 26 rounds or 2x 15 rounds). The French heavyweight (533mm) ASW/ASuW torpedoes are ok, but could - for purpose of standardization - be replaced by the smaller, light 324mm (Whithead) or 400mm (Bofors) kind of ASW torpedoes in service with PN. The main search radar (Thales long-range air search radar 260 DRBV 26D Jupiter aka LW08 operating in D band) should probably be replaced by e.g. 3D Thales SMART-S mk2.

 

[Penguin]

Why do we always go for used one ?

Folks are difficult to please (see comments on announcement of acquisition of new MILGEM corvettes from Turkey ... seen any enthousiastic ones?)

 

[WarFariX]

PN Should aim for indigenization of surface vessels instead.
They have acquired old platforms since the start and due to which the warship building could not start in country.

Now it's time to start working on an indigenous design along with the Milgem, so by the time the Milgem project ends, PN starts construction of it's own frigate.

Is KSEW enough for doing indigenous projects for friagtes and destroyers or Gwadar Naval dockyard is still needed ?

 

[araz]

We have the experience from the F22Ps and now the new tanker.
If we can go ahead with our own design now, it will materialise in the next 5 - 7 years.

A few questions for you if i may:
A)What is the reason for PN not following up on the F22 for an order.
B) We notice a change in direction of PN with a sudden lunge towards Turkish platofrms. Why this sudden move/change in direction?
C) What does a collaboration with turkey bring us which the Chinese were not giving us?
D) Is there time for us to build up the navy and do we have enough strength platforms wise or do you think we need intermediate arrangements?
As always answer that which you are comfortable with sharing on an open forum. Anyone else who wants to educate this old man is also welcome.
A

 

[WarFariX]

A few questions for you if i may:
A)What is the reason for PN not following up on the F22 for an order.
B) We notice a change in direction of PN with a sudden lunge towards Turkish platofrms. Why this sudden move/change in direction?
C) What does a collaboration with turkey bring us which the Chinese were not giving us?
D) Is there time for us to build up the navy and do we have enough strength platforms wise or do you think we need intermediate arrangements?
As always answer that which you are comfortable with sharing on an open forum. Anyone else who wants to educate this old man is also welcome.
A

When guys compare turkish and Chinese industry , only 1 thing comes up in my mind " Former makes weapon with knowledge taken as granted (By history of collaborations with top companies and also its own R&D so it has better ideas and ways . While the latter pushed itself from 0 through R&D and still pushing so not the level that turkey is offering".