Should Pakistan act against the Taliban and Kashmiri groups simultaneously?

[Energon]

Nope, they are hardly 'dependent' on the Army but they do represent a more nationalistic outlook. The Indians will undoubtedly use this as an opportunity to label every irregular military group that is made up of Muslims a ‘medieval terrorist organization,’ but there are a great many differences, differences that have to be exploited in order to overcome this repugnant strand. I’ve seen Hizb’s leader speak on TV, he certainly does not empathize with the suicide bombing and Pakistan soldier beheading Taliban; his and his organization’s aims are grounded as being limited to opposing Indian rule in Kashmir, not undermining Pakistan’s security or dominating the Muslim world. They're not likely to join up with the Taliban, and there are no reports hinting that they might've done so this far. In fact the guy actually expressed his disgust with the Taliban/tribal insurrection and stated that they were bringing a bad name to his freedom cause in Kashmir. Some will certainly join up, particularly the more fascist-ly sectarian oriented groups but others won't, even if its just because they feel the Taliban won't win and then they too will have hell to pay.

I think by now it should be clear that there are no "good" Indian killing terrorists who follow strict orders from the state; unless of course you maintain that Pakistan is still a functioning terrorist state. A nation that wishes to be taken seriously and expects others to respect its sovereignty cannot have both, a representative military and independent terrorist groups who can unilaterally wage wars with other states. They are mutually exclusive.

 

[DarkStar]

I think by now it should be clear that there are no "good" Indian killing terrorists who follow strict orders from the state; unless of course you maintain that Pakistan is still a functioning terrorist state. A nation that wishes to be taken seriously and expects others to respect its sovereignty cannot have both, a representative military and independent terrorist groups who can unilaterally wage wars with other states. They are mutually exclusive.

No one in Pakistan has accepted the ludicrous Bharti claims of terrorists following strict orders from the State. What a dishonest statement to make, that is in complete denial of the facts on teh ground.

Kashmir is a disputed territory, and the freedom struggle in Kashmir is not terrosim per se, however sometimes the lines may have been blurred. About Bharti State TErrorism in Kashmir, no Pakistani has any doubt.

 

[Energon]

however sometimes the lines may have been blurred.

yeah... that blurring has been quite significant. Which brings us back to my point in regards to the original premise of this thread... you can't effectively go after the Taliban as long as selective lines get blurred elsewhere. It is a zero sum game.

 

[DarkStar]

The Algeria model shows that islamist militants can be used to fight other islamist militants...

It is inevitable, because of the sectarian and ideological differences between the differing groups. Pakistan's threat is Taliban militants, no one else at the moment. It would be wrong for Pakistan to make enemies of those groups that it has currently no quarrel with. And which it certainly does not 'control'.

 

[Kasrkin]

I certainly do not think there are Indian killing ‘terrorists’ in Pakistan who follow 'orders' from the state. Kashmir, however, is an internationally recognized disputed territory and not part of India (or Pakistan). Therefore, in light of our definitions, militias fighting Indian rule in Kashmir are not terrorists if they abstain from civilian targeting and other terrorist defining activities, which is what many separatist groups in Kashmir do (albeit not all, some have been infiltrated and directed by Indian intelligence, openly side with Indian forces and have human right records comparable to the worst of warlords in Afghanistan). I believe, as part of the recent reconciliation efforts between India and Pakistan, the Pakistani military did close down most separatist camps on our side, have arranged for the rehabilitation of ex-fighters (as was reported by the BBC at the time) and infiltration levels from our side have been overwhelmingly reduced (grudgingly admitted by the Indian Army). Furthermore, the Indian Kashmiri governor and other Occupied Kashmir officials have acknowledged that more than 95% of the insurgency is locally driven and based. Some infiltration or support is obviously inevitable, since Kashmiris on both sides do consider themselves one people and the terrain is perhaps the most uncheck-able in the world. Blaming Pakistan (or Pakistani Kashmiris) for all the violence is obviously an awfully convenient political pretext to ignore, and address, the serious issues represented in Kashmir.

So yes, many groups will undoubtedly reject the twisted Taliban strand of resistance in light of their own geo-strategic visions, which naturally in most cases do not include a local (and world) caliphate or replacing the Pakistani state. However, that having been said, the consequences of their abstaining are unlikely to be critical or significant, because like I said, they have other orientations.

 

[Energon]

The Algeria model shows that islamist militants can be used to fight other islamist militants.

It is inevitable, because of the sectarian and ideological differences between the differing groups. Pakistan's threat is Taliban militants, no one else at the moment. It would be wrong for Pakistan to make enemies of those groups that it has currently no quarrel with. And which it certainly does not 'control'.

Algeria also underwent an all out civil war in the process. Do you think its wise for Pakistan to apply lessons from a model where fighting is decentralized to a multitude of factions when the fundamental problem was the lack of centralization to begin with?

And Taliban are the only radicalized militant group whose actions are posing a direct threat to Pakistan? Really?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

By the way, I am open to better suggestions for the thread title.

 

[BaburCM]

Well, the cat is finally coming out of the bag. First it was the Taliban that was the mother of all evil. Certainly agreeable to a large extent. Now, we can add the Kashmiri groups to that particular axis of evil. Largely politically motivated and factually totally wrong. What's next? The kind request for the disintegration of Baluchistan and NWFP? It all comes down to more demands. The do more for nothing mantra is becoming more and more evident. First, they slowly grab your hand. Consequently, they reach out for the arm and before you even know... Exactly the reason why I have always been fond of Pakistan handling its own problems. India is now being favored by the US at the expense of Pakistan. The Indian interests are being pursued at the expense of Pakistan. We cannot negotiate on our inherited rights and regional interests.

 

[Patriot]

I think it's time to disband these groups.We should end this for good.Indians never used their citizens for any proxy war where as we used our own citizens.The cold war between Pakistan and India has to be ended and GOP should make sure that they are providing good service/healthcare/education to the nation and all provinces so there is no insurgency in Pakistan.We must educate these brainwashed people and use their brain for better work and develop our economy.

 

[roadrunner]

You cannot compare the Taliban with the Kashmiri resistance.

The Kashmiri resistance is quite legitimate as per international law. It is not terrorism. One was attacked and occupied and has the right to self defence. The Taliban are not acting on legitimate grounds (more so on vested interests). However, one thing justifying the Taliban movement, and why it's gained in popularity, are the drone strikes. They are causing a unity within the regions affected by this random blasting of innocent people.

I'm full of admiration of the current Great Game. It's a sneaky and deceptive one, more so than 100 years ago.

 

[BaburCM]

I think it's time to disband these groups.We should end this for good.Indians never used their citizens for any proxy war where as we used our own citizens.The cold war between Pakistan and India has to be ended and GOP should make sure that they are providing good service/healthcare/education to the nation and all provinces so there is no insurgency in Pakistan.We must educate these brainwashed people and use their brain for better work and develop our economy.

True, but still no solution to the conflict in Kashmir. By giving in to Indian/US demands we won't be solving the Kashmir issue, but only exacerbating the problem at hand. We all know damned well what the right and moral thing would be in the case of Kashmir. The people of Kashmir need to be given the right to decide their own fate. Also, let's make a clear cut distinction between the Kashmir and Taliban isue. They both have nothing in common. Both are separate problems that need to be addressed individually at root level.

 

[jeypore]

You cannot compare the Taliban with the Kashmiri resistance.

The Kashmiri resistance is quite legitimate as per international law. It is not terrorism. One was attacked and occupied and has the right to self defence. The Taliban are not acting on legitimate grounds (more so on vested interests). However, one thing justifying the Taliban movement, and why it's gained in popularity, are the drone strikes. They are causing a unity within the regions affected by this random blasting of innocent people.

Cannot believe what I am reading, Thanks!! make them your freedom fighters, and we will just keep shouting them when they cross over.

 

[wtf]

The Algeria model shows that islamist militants can be used to fight other islamist militants...

It is inevitable, because of the sectarian and ideological differences between the differing groups. Pakistan's threat is Taliban militants, no one else at the moment. It would be wrong for Pakistan to make enemies of those groups that it has currently no quarrel with. And which it certainly does not 'control'.

It would appear that in this case terrorists are using Pakistan and not the other way around. One of the theories about Mumbai attack was that it was a way to provoke tensions between India and Pakistan. They managed to do that with the Parliament attacks, and if India had moved forces to border and Pakistan retaliated, then taking over Swat/NWFP becomes easier - not to mention Afghanistan operations.

 

[Patriot]

True, but still no solution to the conflict in Kashmir. By giving in to Indian/US demands we won't be solving the Kashmir issue. The people of Kashmir need to be given the right to decide their own fate. Also, let's make a clear cut distinction between the Kashmir and Taliban isue. They both have nothing in common. Both are separate problems that need to be addressed at root level.

I did not say we should simply accept IOK as Indian Territory but we should close all training camps, and stop sending in Pakistani Citizens who think it's their moral right to liberate Kashmir by fighting with Indian Army and even if people try to infiltrate and PA should stop them from entering into Kashmir.Let the Kashmiris deal with indians themselves.We have far bigger problems going on within Pakistan.

 

[DarkStar]

Algeria also underwent an all out civil war in the process. Do you think its wise for Pakistan to apply lessons from a model where fighting is decentralized to a multitude of factions when the fundamental problem was the lack of centralization to begin with?

And Taliban are the only radicalized militant group whose actions are posing a direct threat to Pakistan? Really?

OF course, thedynamics of Algeria were completely different.

1. The FIS were on course for a landslide election victory, when the poll results were annulled, and martial law declared.

2. The militants had popular support.

3. The militant supporters were all over the country, including large areas of the capital, Algiers.

4. There were great ARab-Berber tensions that were exploited, which led to a full scale civil war between the two communities.

Pakistan can still take certain lessons from the Algeria conflictr, as well as the successes of the Saudi and Egyptian counter terrorism efforts.

Of course any lessons learnt, have to be applied keeping in view the specific conditions of Pakistan.