Should discussion be allowed on questions raised by Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza?

[ziaulislam]

we will leave the thread unlocked if you guys want to discuss it in very constructive manner and we receive no complaints from this thread.....
problem happens when mods are bombarded with 10-15 reports from same thread .....

Mods act on everything if reported even of someone is sneezing..so better just make it easy and keep it locked

 

[Verve]

What munkar e hdaeeth? Which hadeeth did I rejected? Has engineer started to supply you guys with weed also that you guys have started spewing such nonsense?

As I said before, if you have not bothered to study Hadith yourself, you do not know the truth.

You claim that sequencing of Quran was done by Khulfa-e-Rashideen. So let me ask you a simple (but mind bongling question for you), how did the Prophet (PBUH) perform the Taraweh prayers? Was he randomly reciting Quran or in the sequence we recite today as well?

Get your beliefs set right bro. Allah SWT completed the Deen through our Prophet PBUH and He also delivered the full sequencing of Quran through our Prophet.

Book form came later. That's it.

 

[Areesh]

As I said before, if you have not bothered to study Hadith yourself, you do not know the truth.

You claim that sequencing of Quran was done by Khulfa-e-Rashideen. So let me ask you a simple (but mind bongling question for you), how did the Prophet (PBUH) perform the Taraweh prayers? Was he randomly reciting Quran or in the sequence we recite today as well?

Get your beliefs set right bro. Allah SWT completed the Deen through our Prophet PBUH and He also delivered the full sequencing of Quran through our Prophet.

Book form came later. That's it.

This is what I said in my post that you quoted:

Can you please show me the word "sequencing" in this whole post??

 

[Verve]

This is what I said in my post that you quoted:

View attachment 803943

Can you please show me the word "sequencing" in this whole post??

And my response to you was the compilation 'in book form' yes it was done during Khulfa's time. 'Tarteeb' (sequencing) was done by Prophet PBUH, Khulfa compiled in One book for distribution. Maybe you didn't fully comprehend my first respond! A lot of people actually believe that tarteeb was done by Khulfa-e-Rashideen as well!

I have utmost respect for Khulfa-e-Rashideen and all our mothers (Prophet's wives).

 

[Sal12]

Shirk shall not be forgiven. That's the Law.



In a book compilation but if you are claiming that the whole sequencing of Quran was done by the Khulfa-e-Rasideen then you are grossly wrong - these lies are spread by sects who claim that Kkyzer assisted Umar RA etc. Go read Hadith. Our Prophet PBUH not only delivered the complete Deen but he also delivered the complete Quran in it's current sequencing of Surahs. There were many hufaz of full Quran during Prophet's life and Prophet used to have the writers write the Quran and repeat for corrections. Prophet even encouraged Hadith being written. It's all in Hadith books but people like you believe what's written in other books by sects and their alims.

Tafseer of Quran is Hadith.



False accusation. It was Raza Khan Breli who wrote that Deobandi and Ahle-Hadith call for prayer is not a call for prayer and their masques are not mosques, whereas Jewish worship place is perfectly acceptable for praying.



You want to discuss Engineer but you seem to be clueless about him. How many videos on his official channel have you actually watched? I doubt you've seen more than a handful, if that! And you want to debate him here. How does that fit in the critical thinking when you have not done full research on the topic yourself, where you just had to sit and watch videos with pen and paper to make notes.

He posts the scans of sect books cover pages and actual pages within where such stuff is written that makes the foundation of these sects. Had you watched the videos and verified yourself if such stuff is actually written in those books, you wouldn't have made such statements. Maybe you are expecting us to post the scans of the pages from those books where such fatwas and stories are written?

Opt for research first before debate - that would be the logical approach.



You don't get it one bit. Engineer gives clear references to Quran and Hadith (with Ayat and Hadith Books+Numbers) against the teachings of sects.

I present to you JUST one example. Sahih Muslim 7213. This Hadith demolishes the false claims of Sufis/Peers etc etc. Brelvi and Deobandi claim that all Sahaba are higher ranking than any Ghous, Kutab, Abdal whatever ... so if Sahaba can't HEAR azab-e-qabar (as per Sahih Muslim 7213), then how can likes of Ghous etc can. There are hundreds of examples.

Now if you doubt the above Hadith, you become munkar-e-Hadith and there is not further discussion with you.

Ghous Namaz - with Qibla towards Baghdad .. Stories of Ghous killing a mureed with his anger look who had put down a lota facing Qibla ... Ghous rising from his grave to go to a mureed's grave to save him from the questioning by angels and having a direct conversation with Allah ... such fabricated stories are sold as Beliefs in the sects.

 

[Mentee]

And who is Kkyzer???

He meant khyzer/Poseidon/paani vala peer/saint ------ I think George? but not sure .an immortal fellow who gives regular visits to a vast group of ahnaf ------.

We stand guilty as charged to the extent that a certain section amongst us is guilty of this

Wait a minute ! Not a certain section but the vast majority of indo Pakistani Sunnis- ------.

 

[Verve]

And what is wrong with that? Qaqyani are Kafir he has always said and so are Christians and Jews. Question he poses is who is a bigger Kafir? The ones who rejected our Prophet PBUH or the one who accepts - who is a worst Kafir to you - Rejecting or Accepting? Qadyanis openly say they follow Hanafi sect!

They way you posed that statement was incorrect and misleading. You should have said that 'he says that Christians and Jews are higher ranking Kafir than Qadyanis' and that is what he said in the video you posted.

Anyways, Brelvi believe that Deobandi and Ahle-Hadith are Kafir and they are worse than Jews!

 

[Sal12]

And what is wrong with that? Qaqyani are Kafir he has always said and so are Christians and Jews. Question he poses is who is a bigger Kafir? The ones who rejected our Prophet PBUH or the one who accepts - who is a worst Kafir to you - Rejecting or Accepting?

Anyways, Brelvi believe that Deobandi and Ahle-Hadith are Kafir and they are worse than Jews!

This is Quran who declared prophet as Khatam un naibun and Qadiani do not believe Prophet as Khatam un naibun so Qadiai rejects Quran as well but declare themselves as muslims.

Chrsitans and jews do not call themselves as Muslims and do not deceits other muslims by calling them as muslims while Qadianis call themselves as muslims and deceits other muslims in the name of Islam.

What is the point of believing in Quran when you don't actually believe in what Quran says.

 

[alee92nawaz]

In case you don't know

Those fatwas got retracted long ago even in the lifetime of Ahmed Raza himself

By the way Ahmed Raza also gave fatwa of kufr against Rawafiz (Shias) in his book fatawa e rizvia and other books. What is your opinion about that?

I think your use of words indicate that I should not consult with you. Proving my actual point that this forum is full of religious zealots. According to me, anyone who fulfills the definition of Muslim according to the constitution or Kalma is a Muslim. I hardly care about what these mullahs say because that changes according to their interests. Whole country is suffering by the hand of these deobandi madrassas and now recently by Khadim rizvi's barelvis.

And after that the Deobandi Ulema wrote Al-Muhannad 'Alal Mufannad' to refute the basis on which those Fatwas were given and the Arabic Ulema had to agree with the Deobandi stance. And the Barelvis themselves have softened their stance now because the original was based on incorrect information.

There are good and bad everywhere. I am sorry to hear you have negative experiences with Deobandis. But if you have any concrete questions in your mind about the Deobandis which are unanswered, please bring them forward.


In the case of Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza, well he is spreading misinformation. I am trying to find something valid where he has shown Deobandis/Hanafis are wrong. Can you point this out to me?

I don't care about the definition of kafir by some century old mullah. If someone obeys the condition written in constitution and kalma and has love and respect for Ahl e Bait and Sahaba is a Muslim for me.

 

[Mentee]

Preliminary things like how to pray when to pray etc which gets the majority of muslims flared up were discussed to death by the early jurists . Anyone can adopt any school of thought or more simultaneously as long he remains in touch and consider the Quran the absolute authority while eagerly searching about what came before, but this my way or high way approach to Deen is unacceptable .

It's like ignoring the camel in the room but fighting over a mosquito

 

[Verve]

This is Quran who declared prophet as Khatam un naibun and Qadiani do not believe Prophet as Khatam un naibun so Qadiai rejects Quran as well but declare themselves as muslims.

Chrsitans and jews do not call themselves as Muslims and do not deceits other muslims by calling them as muslims while Qadianis call themselves as muslims and deceits other muslims in the name of Islam.

What is the point of believing in Quran when you don't actually believe in what Quran says.

You are intentionally twisting his words. His video was on the Kafir ranking as to who is worse? He also says that those who became Qadyanis are murtad and those born in are Kafir (& not murtad).

Basically your argument is that Qadyanis are worse because they call themselves muslim. His argument is from the 'islah' so that you revert the born Qadyanis back to Muslim by having a proper debate with them to correct their beliefs. His point is that it is easier to revert them than Christians and Jews who outright reject our Prophet.

Tableeg (getting the message to) is the duty of EVERY Muslim, including you as well. He is guiding you on how to debate with Qadyanis to revert them, as they are easier to talk to than other Kafir groups.

Preliminary things like how to pray when to pray etc which gets the majority of muslims flared up were discussed to death by the early jurists . Anyone can adopt any school of thought or more simultaneously as long he remains in touch and consider the Quran the absolute authority while eagerly searching about what came before, but this my way or high way approach to Deen is unacceptable .

It's like ignoring the camel in the room but fighting over a mosquito

Mosquito has everyone rattled ... he doesn't spare anyone, exposing their false and fabricated beliefs from their own literature.

 

[Verve]

In case you don't know

Those fatwas got retracted long ago even in the lifetime of Ahmed Raza himself

Where is this recorded or someone told you?

Give the name of the Brelvi book with page number or post the scans here. I want to read such a retraction that everyone seems to have missed ... His Will (in the form of book published by his son) says no such thing .. instead the opposite!

 

[Sal12]

You are intentionally twisting his words. His video was on the Kafir ranking as to who is worse? He also says that those who became Qadyanis are murtad and those born in are Kafir (& not murtad).

Basically your argument is that Qadyanis are worse because they call themselves muslim. His argument is from the 'islah' so that you revert the born Qadyanis back to Muslim by having a proper debate with them to correct their beliefs. His point is that it is easier to revert them than Christians and Jews who outright reject our Prophet.

Tableeg (getting the message to) is the duty of EVERY Muslim, including you as well. He is guiding you on how to debate with Qadyanis to revert them, as they are easier to talk to than other Kafir groups.


Mosquito has everyone rattled ... he doesn't spare anyone, exposing their false and fabricated beliefs from their own literature.

No. He says Qadianis believe in Quran while they do not believe in Quran in its real sense. Rejecting one verse of Quran is equal to rejecting all of Quran. So you and your self proclaimed scholar Engineer is misleading everyone here by claiming Qadianis believe in Quran when they do not.

Also Chrsitans and Jews are better than Qadianis since they do not mislead other muslims by calling themselves as muslims while all of them are kafirs.

When you do not believe in final prophethood then you do not believe in prophet no matter how many times you declare you believe in prophet. On the top of this you deceit other muslims by calling themselves as muslims.

Initially you rejected that Engineer Ali has called Qadianis better than Jews and Chrsitians and when I showed his video, now you are defending him.

 

[Areesh]

According to me, anyone who fulfills the definition of Muslim according to the constitution or Kalma is a Muslim.

That was not happening when you were stressing on Ahmed Raza Khan fatwa on Deobandis

Calling others zealots is going to work when you are one yourself

 

[I.R.A]

And my response to you was the compilation 'in book form' yes it was done during Khulfa's time. 'Tarteeb' (sequencing) was done by Prophet PBUH, Khulfa compiled in One book for distribution. Maybe you didn't fully comprehend my first respond! A lot of people actually believe that tarteeb was done by Khulfa-e-Rashideen as well!

I have utmost respect for Khulfa-e-Rashideen and all our mothers (Prophet's wives).

I have a question related to this.

Why does Quran call itself Kitab then? If it wasn't in book form, then why Almighty called it Kitab right at the start of Second Surah and multiple times?

And if Quran wasn't given a book form during life of Muhammad Peace be upon him, then how can you argue with Jews and Christians that they altered their books?