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Should discussion be allowed on questions raised by Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza?

Should discussion be allowed on questions raised by Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza?

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I don't accept Abbasids and others' rule as State in conformity with Islamic way of governance, they were usurpers and led many astray into believing nonsense that had nothing to do with Islam.

I was referring to righteous Caliphs and they don't count to be 4 only.

In case you didn't get it, Imran Khan is NOT the modern day equivalent of the Righteous Caliphs. Given what he's done, he seems more like an agent of West. But that takes us away from the topic at hand so let us cease and desist.

I will close this by saying Pakistan Government, Armed Forces, and Judiciary do not hold any religious credentials in the eyes of people today, and this is because of their actions in the past and in the present.
 
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In case you didn't get it, Imran Khan is NOT the modern day equivalent of the Righteous Caliphs. Given what he's done, he seems more like an agent of West. But that takes us away from the topic at hand so let us cease and desist.

I will close this by saying Pakistan Government, Armed Forces, and Judiciary do not hold any religious credentials in the eyes of people today, and this is because of their actions in the past and in the present.

I am not typing anything to support our today's governance system or anything, all I am trying to say is that we need to wake up and combine our efforts and struggles to come up with an Islamic solution that is suited to needs of these times. Muslims were supposed to be role models and not someone stuck in past and confused to the extent that they cannot decide upon anything at all.
 
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Whole Shiasm is founded on ghulu and pagan mysticism. There are tons of videos and books out their with such material written and produced by hundreds and hundreds of shia scholars

Having said that. If some hanafi is making a demi god out of some personality then indeed he is misguided and not on the path of ahle sunnah


If we stereotype a whole bunch of people based on the actions of a group with in them and ignore the CODIFIED teachings of its Imams and their level of conformity with the Quran then all of the ummah including the Sunnis who just happen to be the largest firqah among other firqahs stand condemned under the Devine Law .

The ahnaf by which ever way we look at them far exceeds the shias in adopting and practising pagan mysticism both in numbers and degrees of initiation.
 
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The ahnaf by which ever way we look at them far exceeds the shias in adopting and practising pagan mysticism both in numbers and degrees of initiation.

And that my friend is nothing but a big fat lie
 
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Okay well let's play your way.

Was Abbu Hanifa traditionalist or someone who questioned the set practices and traditions?

You are trying to argue about someone who himself questioned and rejected set practices of his times and favored technical considerations at that time.

I am sure no matter how much you try you cannot claim that Abbu Hanifa had knowledge of modern day (today's) concepts, problems and technicalities.

His work being a jurist in his times was revered and noted because he reformed and formulated according to his times.

Buddy no matter what, Abbu Hanifa is not coming to write a constitution for you. Evolve and move forward.

Imam Abu Hanfia basic fundamental rule to answer any question and handle any situation was Quran and Sunnah. He was student of people who used to be companions of Prophet (SAW)'s companions like Hazrat Ali (RZ) or Hazrat Abdullah bin masud (RZ)

His whole work was based on Quran and Sunnah. Question again is where should we evolve and why? And even if we have to evolve then how? Should we overlook and ignore Quran and Sunnah for this evolution? If no then we are already following a school of jurisprudence that is based on Quran and Sunnah. Nobody is saying that for medical sciences or engineer we need to follow Imam Abu Hanifa. For these sciences we follow respective experts and nobody has issue with that. For islamic jurisprudence we would continue to follow Hanfi fiqah

There is no confusion here as you are trying to create here
 
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D. Stop lies...this is the worst thing of all.

Shirk shall not be forgiven. That's the Law.

Quran that we have in our hands today was literally compiled under leadership of Abu Bakr (rz), umar (rz) and usman (rz)

In a book compilation but if you are claiming that the whole sequencing of Quran was done by the Khulfa-e-Rasideen then you are grossly wrong - these lies are spread by sects who claim that Kkyzer assisted Umar RA etc. Go read Hadith. Our Prophet PBUH not only delivered the complete Deen but he also delivered the complete Quran in it's current sequencing of Surahs. There were many hufaz of full Quran during Prophet's life and Prophet used to have the writers write the Quran and repeat for corrections. Prophet even encouraged Hadith being written. It's all in Hadith books but people like you believe what's written in other books by sects and their alims.

Tafseer of Quran is Hadith.

Also as per Engineer Ali, Qadianis are better than Christians and jews since Qadianis atleast do believe in Prophet Muhammad while christians and jews do not.

False accusation. It was Raza Khan Breli who wrote that Deobandi and Ahle-Hadith call for prayer is not a call for prayer and their masques are not mosques, whereas Jewish worship place is perfectly acceptable for praying.

But you said both Deobandis and Barelvis have a Fatwa against each other. That statement has proven incorrect. I now invite you to think who put this thought in your mind. Question that person because definitely he is spreading a false propaganda.

You want to discuss Engineer but you seem to be clueless about him. How many videos on his official channel have you actually watched? I doubt you've seen more than a handful, if that! And you want to debate him here. How does that fit in the critical thinking when you have not done full research on the topic yourself, where you just had to sit and watch videos with pen and paper to make notes.

He posts the scans of sect books cover pages and actual pages within where such stuff is written that makes the foundation of these sects. Had you watched the videos and verified yourself if such stuff is actually written in those books, you wouldn't have made such statements. Maybe you are expecting us to post the scans of the pages from those books where such fatwas and stories are written?

Opt for research first before debate - that would be the logical approach.

Could you please give a concrete example where you found Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza to be authentic, and answers given by Ulema to be propaganda? This is exactly what I am looking for. Many thanks in advance.

You don't get it one bit. Engineer gives clear references to Quran and Hadith (with Ayat and Hadith Books+Numbers) against the teachings of sects.

I present to you JUST one example. Sahih Muslim 7213. This Hadith demolishes the false claims of Sufis/Peers etc etc. Brelvi and Deobandi claim that all Sahaba are higher ranking than any Ghous, Kutab, Abdal whatever ... so if Sahaba can't HEAR azab-e-qabar (as per Sahih Muslim 7213), then how can likes of Ghous etc can. There are hundreds of examples.

Now if you doubt the above Hadith, you become munkar-e-Hadith and there is not further discussion with you.

Ghous Namaz - with Qibla towards Baghdad .. Stories of Ghous killing a mureed with his anger look who had put down a lota facing Qibla ... Ghous rising from his grave to go to a mureed's grave to save him from the questioning by angels and having a direct conversation with Allah ... such fabricated stories are sold as Beliefs in the sects.
 
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In a book compilation but if you are claiming that the whole sequencing of Quran was done by the Khulfa-e-Rasideen then you are grossly wrong - these lies are spread by sects who claim that Kkyzer assisted Umar RA etc. Go read Hadith. Our Prophet PBUH not only delivered the complete Deen but he also delivered the complete Quran in it's current sequencing of Surahs. There were many hufaz of full Quran during Prophet's life and Prophet used to have the writers write the Quran and repeat for corrections. Prophet even encouraged Hadith being written. It's all in Hadith books but people like you believe what's written in other books by sects and their alims.

Tafseer of Quran is Hadith.

So you want to deny this historical reality that Quran was compiled during tenure of first three caliphs? Nice. Even a 5th grade kid knows that Quran was compiled in its current form by first three caliphs and Hazrat Usman (RZ) was called Jamai ul Quran for this very reason

And who is Kkyzer???

And nope Hadiths were compiled decades later by people like Imam Bukhari who wanted to separate authentic ahadith from the zaeef or weak ones. There were no hadith books during Prophet Mohammad (SAW) compiled by Sahaba

By the way you can read more about compilation of Quran here:

 
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If we stereotype a whole bunch of people based on the actions of a group with in them and ignore the CODIFIED teachings of its Imams and their level of conformity with the Quran then all of the ummah including the Sunnis who just happen to be the largest firqah among other firqahs stand condemned under the Devine Law .

The ahnaf by which ever way we look at them far exceeds the shias in adopting and practising pagan mysticism both in numbers and degrees of initiation.
And that my friend is nothing but a big fat lie

Let's be very clear. There a number of 'Jahil Soofis' amongst the Ahl-us-Sunnat wal Jama'at and they have been termed as such by religious scholars. We stand guilty as charged to the extent that a certain section amongst us is guilty of this. But you cannot say that all Sufiya are wrong.
 
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Imam Abu Hanfia basic fundamental rule to answer any question and handle any situation was Quran and Sunnah. He was student of people who used to be companions of Prophet (SAW)'s companions like Hazrat Ali (RZ) or Hazrat Abdullah bin masud (RZ)

His whole work was based on Quran and Sunnah. Question again is where should we evolve and why? And even if we have to evolve then how? Should we overlook and ignore Quran and Sunnah for this evolution? If no then we are already following a school of jurisprudence that is based on Quran and Sunnah. Nobody is saying that for medical sciences or engineer we need to follow Imam Abu Hanifa. For these sciences we follow respective experts and nobody has issue with that. For islamic jurisprudence we would continue to follow Hanfi fiqah

There is no confusion here as you are trying to create here


I started with a verse from Quran and tried to demonstrate that how the same verse can have somewhat same meaning but different understanding, because of improved means and technological advances / discoveries. It is not an insult to say that we may have better understanding of following verse today compared to Abbu Hanifa

"In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day, there are signs for those who possess intelligence."

We can today see it with our own eyes from space the alteration of night and day.

The human mind has evolved and will keep evolving, Quran is for all times. e.g. The word Alaq has multiple meanings which people of different times will understand according to their means, this particular word may mean "Congealed Blood" "The Clot" or the "The Clinging Thing" . Abbu Hanifa and his contemporaries would have understood it better as Congealed blood, but today we have the facility of ultrasound and we can understand this same exact word to be clinging thing.

Abbu Hanifa couldn't have known that one day people will use something like a webportal or cell phone app to do banking transactions. Come on please.

Same is the case with Islamic jurisprudence, centuries old understanding doesn't suffice modern day challenges and problems.
 
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So you want to deny this historical reality that Quran was compiled during tenure of first three caliphs? Nice. Even a 5th grade kid knows that Quran was compiled in its current form by first three caliphs and Hazrat Usman (RZ) was called Jamai ul Quran for this very reason

And who is Kkyzer???

And nope Hadiths were compiled decades later by people like Imam Bukhari who wanted to separate authentic ahadith from the zaeef or weak ones. There were no hadith books during Prophet Mohammad (SAW) compiled by Sahaba

So you are a Munkar-e-Hadith now too? It's a normal trend when someone's false beliefs are challenged by Hadith.
 
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Shirk shall not be forgiven. That's the Law.



In a book compilation but if you are claiming that the whole sequencing of Quran was done by the Khulfa-e-Rasideen then you are grossly wrong - these lies are spread by sects who claim that Kkyzer assisted Umar RA etc. Go read Hadith. Our Prophet PBUH not only delivered the complete Deen but he also delivered the complete Quran in it's current sequencing of Surahs. There were many hufaz of full Quran during Prophet's life and Prophet used to have the writers write the Quran and repeat for corrections. Prophet even encouraged Hadith being written. It's all in Hadith books but people like you believe what's written in other books by sects and their alims.

Tafseer of Quran is Hadith.



False accusation. It was Raza Khan Breli who wrote that Deobandi and Ahle-Hadith call for prayer is not a call for prayer and their masques are not mosques, whereas Jewish worship place is perfectly acceptable for praying.



You want to discuss Engineer but you seem to be clueless about him. How many videos on his official channel have you actually watched? I doubt you've seen more than a handful, if that! And you want to debate him here. How does that fit in the critical thinking when you have not done full research on the topic yourself, where you just had to sit and watch videos with pen and paper to make notes.

He posts the scans of sect books cover pages and actual pages within where such stuff is written that makes the foundation of these sects. Had you watched the videos and verified yourself if such stuff is actually written in those books, you wouldn't have made such statements. Maybe you are expecting us to post the scans of the pages from those books where such fatwas and stories are written?

Opt for research first before debate - that would be the logical approach.



You don't get it one bit. Engineer gives clear references to Quran and Hadith (with Ayat and Hadith Books+Numbers) against the teachings of sects.

I present to you JUST one example. Sahih Muslim 7213. This Hadith demolishes the false claims of Sufis/Peers etc etc. Brelvi and Deobandi claim that all Sahaba are higher ranking than any Ghous, Kutab, Abdal whatever ... so if Sahaba can't HEAR azab-e-qabar (as per Sahih Muslim 7213), then how can likes of Ghous etc can. There are hundreds of examples.

Now if you doubt the above Hadith, you become munkar-e-Hadith and there is not further discussion with you.

Ghous Namaz - with Qibla towards Baghdad .. Stories of Ghous killing a mureed with his anger look who had put down a lota facing Qibla ... Ghous rising from his grave to go to a mureed's grave to save him from the questioning by angels and having a direct conversation with Allah ... such fabricated stories are sold as Beliefs in the sects.

Oh bhai, you referred to one Hadith and then listed a bunch of Barelvi beliefs. What does this have to do with Deobandis?

And you are NOT getting what I am trying to achieve here. I am not trying to debate Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza on every single point. Religious scholars have already given replies. I am trying to understand what misconceptions people are holding in their heads after listening to him and the replies by scholars. Does this make sense to you now?
So you want to deny this historical reality that Quran was compiled during tenure of first three caliphs? Nice. Even a 5th grade kid knows that Quran was compiled in its current form by first three caliphs and Hazrat Usman (RZ) was called Jamai ul Quran for this very reason

And who is Kkyzer???

And nope Hadiths were compiled decades later by people like Imam Bukhari who wanted to separate authentic ahadith from the zaeef or weak ones. There were no hadith books during Prophet Mohammad (SAW) compiled by Sahaba

By the way you can read more about compilation of Quran here:


Correct yourself on this point. 'Compilation' means bringing together everything written in the time of Rasoolullah Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam. The Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam determined the order in which Aayahs were written in Surahs, and the order in which Surahs should be recited. You are both saying a different thing and arguing over nothing.
 
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Oh bhai, you referred to one Hadith and then listed a bunch of Barelvi beliefs. What does this have to do with Deobandis?

Watch the video I posted re Deobandis .. Shall I post the Kufr fatway of sects too? You watched any of those?

And you are NOT getting what I am trying to achieve here. I am not trying to debate Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza on every single point. Religious scholars have already given replies. I am trying to understand what misconceptions people are holding in their heads after listening to him and the replies by scholars. Does this make sense to you now?

Current so called alims of Sects may have responded to Engineer, but did they also give fatwa their what's written in their books by their founding ulema is wrong and will be fully redacted in future publications? What these ulema teach as beliefs and what they present in rebuttal in videos is just BS!

Why are you trying to understand what misconceptions people are holding in their heads? Will that make any difference to you? Or you want to influence people by this debate to not listen to him?
 
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So you are a Munkar-e-Hadith now too? It's a normal trend when someone's false beliefs are challenged by Hadith.

What munkar e hdaeeth? Which hadeeth did I rejected? Has engineer started to supply you guys with weed also that you guys have started spewing such nonsense?
Correct yourself on this point. 'Compilation' means bringing together everything written in the time of Rasoolullah Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam. The Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam determined the order in which Aayahs were written in Surahs, and the order in which Surahs should be recited. You are both saying a different thing and arguing over nothing.

I got what you are saying and agree with it. I am just answering @Verve who is trying to deny the historical reality that Quran was compiled during tenure of first 3 caliphs
 
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