Should discussion be allowed on questions raised by Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza?

[CriticalThought]

My recent thread discussing the theological controversies created by Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza has been locked:

الضربة المهند علي رأس المفند

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم Recent years have witnessed the meteoric rise of the personality 'Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza'. This man invites people towards being 'Ilmi and Kitabi, i.e., knowledgeable and academic. Under this banner, he has systematically waged a war on established schools of thought...

defence.pk

I created a thread to raise the question of why it has been locked, and that thread was then shifted to GHQ, where you only ever get complete silence. I was told that the possible cause is that religious discussion is not allowed.

I feel that this is a very especial case. We are not trying to preach, we are only trying to have an intellectual debate on theological questions that are creating a deep unrest within the youth (especially) of the country. If PDF censors such discussion, it is complicit in weakening our theological foundations, and the question needs to be asked: which side is PDF management on?

Every rule has an exception. I feel this is a genuine case of exception. I promise to keep the debate intellectual, based on references to sources and logical argumentation. And if I see anyone transgressing these bounds, I will flag the post. With these restrictions, can we please open up the thread for discussion?

@WebMaster @The Eagle @waz @Horus @Foxtrot Alpha @krash

 

[Amaa'n]

My recent thread discussing the theological controversies created by Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza has been locked:

الضربة المهند علي رأس المفند

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم Recent years have witnessed the meteoric rise of the personality 'Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza'. This man invites people towards being 'Ilmi and Kitabi, i.e., knowledgeable and academic. Under this banner, he has systematically waged a war on established schools of thought...

defence.pk

I created a thread to raise the question of why it has been locked, and that thread was then shifted to GHQ, where you only ever get complete silence. I was told that the possible cause is that religious discussion is not allowed.

I feel that this is a very especial case. We are not trying to preach, we are only trying to have an intellectual debate on theological questions that are creating a deep unrest within the youth (especially) of the country. If PDF censors such discussion, it is complicit in weakening our theological foundations, and the question needs to be asked: which side is PDF management on?

Every rule has an exception. I feel this is a genuine case of exception. I promise to keep the debate intellectual, based on references to sources and logical argumentation. And if I see anyone transgressing these bounds, I will flag the post. With these restrictions, can we please open up the thread for discussion?

@WebMaster @The Eagle @waz @Horus @Foxtrot Alpha @krash

we will leave the thread unlocked if you guys want to discuss it in very constructive manner and we receive no complaints from this thread.....
problem happens when mods are bombarded with 10-15 reports from same thread .....

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

My recent thread discussing the theological controversies created by Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza has been locked:

الضربة المهند علي رأس المفند

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم Recent years have witnessed the meteoric rise of the personality 'Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza'. This man invites people towards being 'Ilmi and Kitabi, i.e., knowledgeable and academic. Under this banner, he has systematically waged a war on established schools of thought...

defence.pk

I created a thread to raise the question of why it has been locked, and that thread was then shifted to GHQ, where you only ever get complete silence. I was told that the possible cause is that religious discussion is not allowed.

I feel that this is a very especial case. We are not trying to preach, we are only trying to have an intellectual debate on theological questions that are creating a deep unrest within the youth (especially) of the country. If PDF censors such discussion, it is complicit in weakening our theological foundations, and the question needs to be asked: which side is PDF management on?

Every rule has an exception. I feel this is a genuine case of exception. I promise to keep the debate intellectual, based on references to sources and logical argumentation. And if I see anyone transgressing these bounds, I will flag the post. With these restrictions, can we please open up the thread for discussion?

@WebMaster @The Eagle @waz @Horus @Foxtrot Alpha @krash

I left Bralvi sect after listening to Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza.
though I don't listen him too much but I have realized that we all can have different opinions but we should not create divisions in Islam just because we see some matters from some different angle.


I will just say one thing:

Non Muslims cannot do any damage to Islam
Its Muslims who have damaged and will damage our religion. And secterianism is the biggest damage ever done to Islam. Sects are made and spread by Muslims themselves.

 

[Erroroverload]

there is always a difference of opinion in understanding Quran and Hadith, the problem begins when we take these differences to enmity. and this has costed Muslims alot and will continue to do in future aswell.

 

[fisher1]

we will leave the thread unlocked if you guys want to discuss it in very constructive manner and we receive no complaints from this thread.....
problem happens when mods are bombarded with 10-15 reports from same thread .....

That is a bit hypocritical that the video showing the curse of polytheism and disgusting acts depicted in it was closed while another thread that is about theological issues that will surely make people with weak emaan have doubts, allowed.

 

[Trango Towers]

My personal religious beliefs.

1. I have stopped listening to molvis peers sheikhs etc altogether.

2. The so called ulema are the reason for all the sects and varying schools of thought. Their personal agenda or well meaning efforts have divided Muslims.
3. I believe we should only be muslim like our prophet...no shia or sunni etc.
4. If prophet pbuh didn't do it we shouldnt. This doesn't mean driving a car or using a laptop. Its clearly stated.." today I have completed your religion for you".
In that case. No darbars, no singing naats etc. Etc etc.
5. Read the quran and hadith yourself and don't rely on anyone else as they may have mistakes in their understanding.
6. Try to do the best ypu can but focus on basics...like
A. Learn the meaning of namaz and pray on time
B. Read quran with meaning.
C. Earn halal
D. Stop lies...this is the worst thing of all.

That's just a few lines from me.
Apologies in advance if anyone is offended. Take care

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Muhammad Ali Mirza is the embodiment of a people who are sick of the sectarianism and division that plagues us.

 

[Trango Towers]

Muhammad Ali Mirza is the embodiment of a people who are sick of the sectarianism and division that plagues us.

I am one of them.

 

[Amaa'n]

there is always a difference of opinion in understanding Quran and Hadith, the problem begins when we take these differences to enmity. and this has costed Muslims alot and will continue to do in future aswell.

give this thread a space of few pages and I will share a screenshot of reports received from this thread

 

[313ghazi]

The idea of understanding religion from its original sources instead of through the prism of scholars from a specific sect sounds great but it's not as easy as it is made out to be.

Not all of the Quran is interpreted literally. Tafseer of the Quran was done by scholars centuries ago. If you want to reinterpret from source do you do your own Tafaeer? Do you revalidate the Tafseer of others? What qualifications do you need to do that? Do you just take the literal translation of the Quran?

Translation reminds me of another point - I assume everyone doing so will be learning classical Arabic and not relying in translations of the Quran because they're done by scholars of different sects and have slightly varied grammar.

Then we go onto hadith. I assume people are going to reauthenticate them all or accept the current authenticities. If you're going to reinterpret then good luck finding the original sources and cross referencing them all. Of course there is a debate around the authenticity around some of the current established standards - so what will you be doing which makes yours free from criticism?

Ultimately though at the end of the day if more than 1 person agrees on your stance without self verifying it all - then does that make you a sect too?

These sects and groups didn't come from politics or gang colours or splits to get access to funding.

These are groups which formed on a variety of differences of scholarly opinion, centuries of research and learning backup thier positions and its the beauty of our religion that its so open to interpretation of some elements and so rock solid on others.

 

[Trango Towers]

The idea of understanding religion from its original sources instead of through the prism of scholars from a specific sect sounds great but it's not as easy as it is made out to be.

Not all of the Quran is interpreted literally. Tafseer of the Quran was done by scholars centuries ago. If you want to reinterpret from source do you do your own Tafaeer? Do you revalidate the Tafseer of others? What qualifications do you need to do that? Do you just take the literal translation of the Quran?

Translation reminds me of another point - I assume everyone doing so will be learning classical Arabic and not relying in translations of the Quran because they're done by scholars of different sects and have slightly varied grammar.

Then we go onto hadith. I assume people are going to reauthenticate them all or accept the current authenticities. If you're going to reinterpret then good luck finding the original sources and cross referencing them all. Of course there is a debate around the authenticity around some of the current established standards - so what will you be doing which makes yours free from criticism?

Ultimately though at the end of the day if more than 1 person agrees on your stance without self verifying it all - then does that make you a sect too?

These sects and groups didn't come from politics or gang colours or splits to get access to funding.

These are groups which formed on a variety of differences of scholarly opinion, centuries of research and learning backup thier positions and its the beauty of our religion that its so open to interpretation of some elements and so rock solid on others.

I think u missed the whole point.

 

[aryadravida]

My personal religious beliefs.

3. I believe we should only be muslim like our prophet...no shia or sunni etc.

Howz that possible?Islam is as much a political ideology as it is religious...it is obligatory for you to have some stance on Abu Bakr,Umar,Aisha, and Usman.
The moment you expresss your opinion you become shia or sunni because there will always be considerable number of muslims on this planet who believe that there were some people who called themselves friends and followers of prophet who cheated and oppressed prophet's family members after his death.

The only solution one can have is you can just ignore whatever they believe in and focus on the teachings of your prophet and quran which means you have to remove one of the most important aspects of your faith; respect rashidun and sahaba.
It's very easy to say I am neither shia nor sunni without realising what it actually means.

 

[CriticalThought]

Many thanks people. What I am interested in, is an intellectual debate on questions raised by Mr. Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza. I have been made aware that he has posed questions, and I have been told that religious scholars have answered some of them, but I do not have a list of questions which are causing trouble in the minds of general population. If anyone has any questions regarding the Deobandi school of thought specifically, please bring them forward. Please also spread this message far and wide so others can benefit from bringing forth anything that troubles their mind. Jazakumullahu Khaira.

 

[I.R.A]

Howz that possible?Islam is as much a political ideology as it is religious...it is obligatory for you to have some stance on Abu Bakr,Umar,Aisha, and Usman.
The moment you expresss your opinion you become shia or sunni because there will always be considerable number of muslims on this planet who believe that there were some people who called themselves friends and followers of prophet who cheated and oppressed prophet's family members after his death.

The only solution one can have is you can just ignore whatever they believe in and focus on the teachings of your prophet and quran which means you have to remove one of the most important aspects of your faith; respect rashidun and sahaba.
It's very easy to say I am neither shia nor sunni without realising what it actually means.

People before me for them is what they did, and for people after me, for them is what they will do .......... I won't be asked about any of them but myself and my deeds. (Quran)

If I am a Muslim and read Quran, I will respect all the companions of Muhammad Peace be upon him same. No differentiation. It is plain and simple mentioned in Quran

Any sensible person with a head on his shoulders would know that what part of history is self constructed and false. Personally I strongly believe there never were any conflicts and infighting as we are made to believe.

------------------------------------------------------
We Muslims have a false understanding of definition of term scholar. Scholar is someone who is knowledgeable and holds expertise in any field like anatomy, archaeology, space, botany, zoology, genealogy, economics, finance, taxes (Zakat), technology and so on ................... to understand what Quran is referring to in some of verses all these different scholars (be them Muslim or Non Muslim) can be approached / listened to.

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

I really like that guy, didnt knew about him few months back but now i listen his youtube videos often. His trademark phrase : kitabon ka khudha kyoee aur hai, babayoon ka khudha kyoee aur hai :d