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Shooting Down the First Soviet Su-25

MK..
I believe you are being a bit harsh on both US and Pakistani pilots where it comes to their "easy" kills.
While the technology did provide a superior edge, it had its limitations both in capabilities and how it was used.
While the LGB was supposedly the hallmark of ODS.. it only accounted for less than 20% of the munitions dropped.
Most kills were still made by the antique sparrow which has a pathetic record.

The Ef-111 pilot who was credited with a maneuver kill deserves credit as do other pilots that shot down fighters in ACM.
However.. to gauge these achievements wrt to people like Bud Mahurin or Gabreski is unfair..
its like comparing the art of swordfighting to sniping and machine gun kills.
Each had its own sphere.. true.. air combat is no longer as personal as it used to be, but war today isnt either.
 
well F 16 always been ace fighter jet with its manuvers and when it gets with the best pilots n the world it will make a killer combination for enemy
Yep! It's not only the machine, but the man behind the machine that counts! And needless to say, Pak pilots are some of the best in the world!

Cheers! :tup:
 
For members who don't know what we are talking bout
This is Su25 frogfoot
Maximum speed: 950 km/h (590 mph, Mach 0.77)
Combat radius: 375 km (235 mi)
Service ceiling: 10,000 m (22,200 ft)
Thrust/weight: 0.51

16697_12011.jpg



And this is F16
Maximum speed:
At sea level: Mach 1.2 (915 mph, 1,470 km/h)[44]
At altitude: Mach 2+ (1,500 mph, 2,410 km/h[1]) clean configuration
Combat radius: 340 mi (295 nmi, 550 km) on a hi-lo-hi mission with six 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs
Service ceiling: 60,000+ ft (18,000+ m)
Thrust/weight: 1.095


f-16-j-98821f16wwf.jpg



FrogFoot it turkey shoot for falcon..
Russian didn't pitch there front line interceptors (MiG25/31). They were using Su25 and Mi25 against Talibans.
 
For members who don't know what we are talking bout

FrogFoot it turkey shoot for falcon..
Russian didn't pitch there front line interceptors (MiG25/31). They were using Su25 and Mi25 against Talibans.

Correction.. The Russians were using front line equipment against the Mujahideen
Mig-21's, Mig-23's were all based in Afg.
These were not used for attack sorties..
Su-22's , su-25's were dedicated attack aircraft used for bomb runs inside Pakistan.. they spent barely a minute or two in Pakistani airspace.. the PAF had to bring down these aircraft travelling at 500 knots or so within the timespan of less than a minute and ensure that the wrecakge also fell in Pakistan..no easy feat.
Moreover, the job of fighters isnt best when killing other air combat aircraft.. its preventing aircraft from causing damage on the ground.. which the PAF did fairly well.
 
Well is that not the job of any fighter to aircraft to shoot down enemy aircraft. Whether that enemy aircraft is a fighter, bomber, transport, trainer or a balloon

So do some of you guys advocate neo chivalry in air to air combat? I mean once the F-16 had recognized the intruder as a Su-25 PAF should have scrambled a T-37 armed with guns and rockets to even the odds for the Su-25

In WWI Belgian pilot Willy Coppens shot down 37 aircraft. 34 of which were observation balloons. He is still considered an ace.

503px-Willy_Coppens.jpg
 
In WWI Belgian pilot Willy Coppens shot down 37 aircraft. 34 of which were observation balloons. He is still considered an ace.

Actually, observation balloons were considered FAR more dangerous than enemy aircraft. They were very heavily defended. Pilots who specialized in balloons had gonads of titanium.

Mastakhan, you are being naive, I'm sorry. Iraqis dropped like flies in Desert Storm because we (the USA) were very good at what we did. I know those men, know what they could do.

War is not supposed to be fair. Only an IDIOT would try to make it fair. War is about stealth, ambush, high-speed hit & run, kill him quick, etc etc.

How about the sniper? We laud great snipers. These men killed at vast distances while the opponent was on the toilet, or eating his dinner. Is he supposed to march up to his opponent and announce his presence?

Please get this notion of honor, of some fair fight out of your mind. War is bloody and brutal and gory and sad.
 
Actually, observation balloons were considered FAR more dangerous than enemy aircraft. They were very heavily defended. Pilots who specialized in balloons had gonads of titanium.

Mastakhan, you are being naive, I'm sorry. Iraqis dropped like flies in Desert Storm because we (the USA) were very good at what we did. I know those men, know what they could do.

War is not supposed to be fair. Only an IDIOT would try to make it fair. War is about stealth, ambush, high-speed hit & run, kill him quick, etc etc.

How about the sniper? We laud great snipers. These men killed at vast distances while the opponent was on the toilet, or eating his dinner. Is he supposed to march up to his opponent and announce his presence?

Please get this notion of honor, of some fair fight out of your mind. War is bloody and brutal and gory and sad.

Hi,

And I am not saying it any different---that is exactly how the standards have changed over the years---. It is what it is.

And exactly for that reason---I have been crying my heart out for the last 20 plus years---don't try to feed the monster----once it gets the taste of the muslim blood and see the easy pickings----it will slaughter you and tear you to pieces---just for the sake of pleasure and just because it can do it. And my pakistani brethren on this very forum for the last 6 years bragged about their machismos----saying we are not iraq---let them come and we will show them what we are.

Obl's execution---that night---the pakistanis felt the burning hot breath of the DRAGON---even though it was just a very calculated and sophisticated incursion---it just lay bare the capabilities of my warrior nation---in a blink of an eye---all these massive projections that my countrymen had erected---they fell on their faces---.

This other night---the beast showed its fangs for the very first time and slaughtered pak soldiers without discretion---for over one hour paks begged for the strike to stop---. Once the Tiger has tasted the blood of man---and has seen how easy it is to kill its victim---why would he want to run after the gazelle---. Who cares about honor---indeed---a kill is a kill---now isn't it---can you imagine the fear it creates in the hearts and souls of the humans----how the fear of those claws and fangs terrorize them---makes the bowels weak and the legs jello---. As for the gazelle they go on grazing the grass one more time..

You fools---you should have found ways to keep the u s out of afghanistan----now you understand why I was crying all this time---to KILL OBL AND HIS COHORTS 10 YEARS AGO.

Some of you made fun of me and some of you laughed at what I wrote---some said I was too much into fiction---.
 
Chogy,

Thank you for your post---we are finding out that this strike continued for 2 hours and there were requests made to stop the air strikes---.

But that is not my point---I understand that the pilot did his job during the 80's---my problem arise out of all the bragging that is done by my counterparts---as if pak air force has done a miracle----my colleagues are setting their standards of achievement very low---very very low and that is what I am objecting to---.

Paf didnot need the F16 to take out those planes---they could have used their mirages and F7 and those would have done an equally wonderfull job.

These are cheap kills---Chogy, 22 years ago when I got into the car sales---I sold my first car to an american indian and the gross profit was close to $5000----and I was strutting around---my boss---a white guy called me to the office---told me--mk--you done a good job---but don't consider yourself a salesman yet till you make this profit on a white customer---I said what---he said kid wait and see----and he was right----. That is all I am saying---raise your sights---raise your standards---and be ready for the real enemy---when he comes---you won't know what hit you.

Mastan,

Respectfully, You need to talk to someone who was flying missions during the Afghan war before you put forth statements such as above.

You make points as if the PAF were a bunch of amateurs flying against the Soviets who did not know what they were doing, which patently was not the case. Even the Afghan pilots became decent later on after receiving training from the Russians.

Your point "Paf didnot need the F16 to take out those planes---they could have used their mirages and F7 and those would have done an equally wonderfull job." lacks the basic information which would explain why none of these kills were easy and why the aircraft that you mention were not used.

For three years, prior to the induction of the F-16s in 82, PAF flew CAPs with Mirages and F-6s and did not achieve a single kill! In all cases, these aircraft neither had the range/endurance nor the weapons or the situational awareness that the F-16s brought with them.

We had some close opportunities only when the Mirages and the F-6s were close by, but in most cases, the Soviets flew under their own radar coverage and stayed away from the Mirages and the F-6s. The F-7 did not arrive till after the end of the Russian war. The F-6 sorties were a tiring affair given the extremely short leg per sortie.

Your own professional experience, in a field in which you have been successful, being compared to the PAF operations of the 80s is essentially an apples to oranges comparison. It does not lend a whole lot to the discussion on hand because the PAF had to fly against veteran Soviet VVS pilots and later on Afghan pilots who had been trained by these very same Soviet pilots. So these pilots were tough adversaries and knew the terrain and the aircraft that they were operating well.

A kill is a hard kill given that all the kills had to happen inside of the Pakistani airspace. The kill had to be scored in a very short amount of time and with a very tiring CAP schedule that had no AWACS support. So the vectoring was a hodgepodge of GCI and the F-16's own AI radar (which both the Mirage and the F-6s lacked) doing all the work. All of this means that every single one of the shoot downs was hard. There was no BVR combat and no shots fired at standoff ranges to make things easy. All aircraft had to get close in and ensure that when the shoot down occurred, it was inside of the Pakistani territory. That by any means is not an easy task.
 
hmmm I keep getting excited by this thread that finally we will shot down a first US fighter jet that is invading airspace .. but keep seeing his old plane stuff ...

When will this blessed news come ... shot down a dirty American fighter jet to take revenge for killing our soliders
 
Chogy…here in our country the “security establishment” is totally authorized and responsible in the affairs of their domain, infect they created and maintained a total monopoly over it. unfortunately there is no credible civilian control in any kinds of these matters.., Therefore when ordinary people of our country pointing out fingers towards them right now…they are very much right, they need answers!! They cannot be fooled around anymore on the pretext that it’s the elected government who takes decisions. From Raymond Davis to Salalah checkpost ordinary people are mature enough..But Again, the matter is not that simple.

This incident comes under the same category which we sought earlier in the last years of Soviet-Afghan War in 80s,. This time US & Nato are desperate to budge Pakistan Army to shun it covert activities and actively support their future plan of Afghanistan and again for one way or another PA is simply not forthcoming!!

Last time on our backs were another super power and that’s why you see great fights between Migs & F16s in those yester years but here now there is simply no one…!!!

And that’s the very reason the PA establishment opted to play “victims card” on every incidence like this one hoping to gain some kind of leverage on being moral high ground in world at large, and deviates their eyesight of what Mike mullen said about Haqqani and ISI in past.

The bottom line is neither PA nor Pentagon backing off to their stated positions on this chessboard, and until that happened we will see more of these kind of incidence and rhetoric from both parties.
 
After finished reading with the thread I have a question for Mastan Khan... Can you plz give us some good examples of air encounters which you consider to be worthy of "bragging"? I do agree to the extent that one should raise one's standard to fight the very best around (the world) but surely we can find some good lessons in this "unfair" kill.

I for one am proud for the PAF of doing the job they were supposed to do back then. And they did a pretty good job... can't belittle their achievement (as we belittle them nowadays from time to time).
 
After finished reading with the thread I have a question for Mastan Khan... Can you plz give us some good examples of air encounters which you consider to be worthy of "bragging"? I do agree to the extent that one should raise one's standard to fight the very best around (the world) but surely we can find some good lessons in this "unfair" kill.

I for one am proud for the PAF of doing the job they were supposed to do back then. And they did a pretty good job... can't belittle their achievement (as we belittle them nowadays from time to time).

Hi,

Air combat and missions against the iaf---the israeli and the indian---yes--for those they have the absolute right to strut their wares---that is when men of the paf were men----flying less capable equipment against better aircraft and still showing their mettle---and coming out ahead.

Afghan war trophies are okay---but for people to brag about their manhood---that is belittling the paf in its fighting capabilities---I mean to say if they could not do that basic an operation---then what good they are.

But then this is the same air force who's high ranking officers should have been charged with high treason and hanged----regarding the missile attack on pakistani naval base in 1971---by not acting on the available information and letting the navy take it up the ---------.

Blain,

My man---always to the rescue---always trying to hide their incompetencies---. Now we have to hear sob stories about how ill equipped paf was against the su25 and what else----oh merciful "Lord'. If that is how poorly equipped paf was then what to brag about---so--basically the F 16 was like the candy that the poor little kid got----to show the world here I am----alright---make up your mind---you want to give me the sob stories of the paf or talk about their machismo.
 
I think there is a need for our leadership, civilian and military, to come out and pick a side. The problem in any arguments presented comes down to the lack of real direction from the leadership. On one hand, America is allowed complete access over Pakistani airspace, and on the other, the Pakistani government cries foul every time a bomb falls on our side of the border. There are obvious vested interests for people in the government to support the Americans in the form billions of dollars of "aid", requiring little accountability.
Though, I personally won't question the accomplishments of the PAF...it is very valid to question the effectiveness of an air force that uses up billions of dollars, that a nation such as Pakistan can use for many other endeavors. If we are going to allow such a massive chunk of our money to be used for one purpose, one must be allowed to question its preparedness to fight a war. WOT and Kargil before it, saw a complete absence of PAF and it has eroded the legendary image the institution has carefully constructed over 50 years. No matter what happened on land and sea, Pakistanis could always rely on the PAF to make us proud...naturally with the high praise, comes deep disappointment, when that same institution, held on a pedestal, fails.
Once again, I will argue, the issue is with the leadership behind it. The PAF's role is actively limited to prevent an escalation in hostilities...but for the common man, that begs the question, what is the point of having an air force, if it hasn't even defended Pakistani airspace. What is the reason then? Is our air force completely incompetent? Or is our leadership plainly holding it back? If that's the case, will these same limitations not crop up every time we fight a "limited war"?
 
Blain,

My man---always to the rescue---always trying to hide their incompetencies---. Now we have to hear sob stories about how ill equipped paf was against the su25 and what else----oh merciful "Lord'. If that is how poorly equipped paf was then what to brag about---so--basically the F 16 was like the candy that the poor little kid got----to show the world here I am----alright---make up your mind---you want to give me the sob stories of the paf or talk about their machismo.

Neither. What I have posted in factual, devoid of any hyperbole or exaggeration. All air arms face problems. Ours in not blessed with infinite funding and has to make do with what is at its disposal and with that it does a commendable job.

There is a difference in bragging and being confident about our capabilities. I know that many fans go to extremes, but when we were shooting down the Soviet aircraft, General Dynamics folks were pretty happy with our score. It did a great job for their marketing.

If you get a chance, get on F-16.net and look up a gentleman by the name of "Gums" (a USAF F-16 pilot) and ask him his opinion of the PAF of the 80s that he trained with. I suggest this because quoting names of Pakistani pilots and officers won't convince you that PAF indeed did a pretty good job of the difficult situation we were in.

I have seen enough on the inside to not sugarcoat anything. We have our problems for sure, but we focus on things that are within our control, i.e. training, and we do a pretty good job of it. Certainly better than most others out there but not everyone.
 

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