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Shenyang J-15 aircraft carrier-based aircraft

Someone made a exactly same thing is reversed enginering, and chinese people made a J20 which had some indentical to general 5th generation fighter is copy, eventhought it had contain inovative.

I found a new word...."reverse engineering cat":cheesy:
 
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still waiting for your 'expert' answer on the difference between reverse enginering and copy? an essay if you needed to spill out your ingenious knowledge``:D

One more time, here is my essay on the difference. Now say it with me slowly, have some one help you sound out the big words......NONE
 
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But I am always willing to learn....please explain the difference between reverse engineering and copying...

Copying is doing something that is already there to trace it, meanwhile reverse engineering (started by Compaq computers back in the '70s) is to produce something without the aid of the actual thing to trace or complete it, in other words replicate it by whatever sources available. A good analogy of this would be a skill artist can copy a Rembrandt painting because the tools to doing it are less complex (brush, knife, paint, and canvas), meanwhile a great engineer can't simply copy a high tech item because the various complex difficult computer codes, electronics, science and tons of testing that needs to be acquaint with the technology. I hope I basically answered everyone's questions about this subject, that's just IMO. :)
 
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Something has to already be there to reverse engineer it also...so not buying it.

(PS where in Texas are you?)
 
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The last pic its How a 5th Gen High Tech UFO looking Fighter Should NOT look like...:lol: you should thank Russian inferior craftmanship

What Chinese craftsmanship are you referring to? If Russian craftsmanship is inferior than why does China still purchase and use Russian technology, too this very day?. China that still uses and imports Russian seekers, engines, helicopters and more.

DSI stealth intakes, when you Russians Boys learn how to do this(will takes decades) you can call that silent flanker a 5th gen...:lol:

go China Go...:china:

:lol: some one speculated on the J-20's DSI and you actually bought it. Firstly the animation doesn’t make any sense from the stand point that a big blob is seen moving yet how it is supposed to operate is not shown; secondly if Russian can produce complex systems such as engines and TVC that are clearly better to anything China has that it can create a retractable DSI, which by-the-way it has had on the Mig-23, so you’re only about 40 years too late.

But your biggest embarrassment is calling the DSI intake ‘stealthy’. It is not, if we assume the J-20 has such a system than we know it will have seems, and moving panels which contribute to RCS. If the J-20 does have a retractable DSI it is only there to increase the efficiency of airflow into the engine. There are several reasons for this which may include one or all of the following: restricted airflow do to the ‘serpentine’ intake, inadequate trust, partially exposed compressors or a desire for better efficiency at a possible sacrifice of rcs.

I have explained the science behind ‘stealth’ but you do not understand, so here is something simple for you do understand:

http://www.afa.org/Mitchell/Reports/MS_RadarGame_0910.pdf

As one Lockheed F‑117
engineer put it, “We couldn’t allow even the tiniest imperfection
in the fit of the landing gear door, for example, that
could triple the airplane’s RCS if it wasn’t precisely flush
with the body.”[/QUOTE]


Typical white mentality. No one can surpass whites. If they do its because they copied whites. :lol:


Likewise no one surpasses Chinese because of their super high IQ.


Russia cannot even make its own shoes. It cannot even make its own name brand cars.



Stop making a fool out of yourself, Russia has been making its own shoes and cars for decades. But wait, let me guess your next cheap shot tactic will be to have me prove if Russia has a top automobile or shoe company.


Russian civil aviation has been banned from several countries because of its appalling safety record, while Air China is one of the safest airlines in the world.



And you have a link for this? Most crashes that involved "Russian" aircraft were actually Ukrainian. And please do realize, Air China does not use any Chinese aircraft. :lol:



Yes, you're ahead in the engines. That's fine. We admit it. You won't be ahead forever, and you're behind in everything else.


This comment is so obsured, so vague and so childish that a response to such a comment is not worth my time.

What civil planes does Russia sell anyways

The Sukhoi 100.

My work here is done... I will leave for now



Don’t let door hit your rear end on the way out.





Get off any Airbus and Boeing plane then. We make critical structural components for both.


You are used for cheap labor, it is Boeing that has a design office in Russia.

Russian made car has high tech optical stealth maybe, no one can see it. Russia doesn't make shoes. Even in the Soviet days Russia could barely make shoes, why do you think Russia can suddenly make shoes now? In heavy industry, your carrier shipyards are all in Ukraine, your civil shipping industry is microscopic, your semiconductor industry is microscopic, your steel/chemical/automotive industries are microscopic, your software industry is pretty much nonexistent. It's a joke that Russia has some of the most farmland in the world and lowest population density in the world but still imports food. Without finance, arms and oil, where would Russia be? Even armaments, China dropped to 13th largest importer for 4 years in a row, you can only sell to undeveloped countries now and you'll be competing with us in that market.


Russia does make shoes, there is nothing special or complex about a shoes, and as for Russia's semiconductor industry being 'nonexistent', that is funny considering China still imports military electronics and asks Russia to help in radar and seeker development. Either Chinese semiconductor industries aren’t as good as you think they are or Russia's are better than you think they are, and please do not confuse biggest civilian companies to the most cutting edge companies, that may or may not be know to the civil market.


Then point out 1 top 10 Russian chemical company - you can't. But I can point to 3 Chinese ones. Sinopec, Petrochina, Formosa Petrochemicals.

Then point out 1 top 8 Russian steel producer - you can't. But I can point to 3 Chinese ones.

Then point out 1 top 20 Russian integrated circuit foundry - you can't. But I can point to 7 Chinese ones.

Then point to the total number of patents in Russia - you can't, it's lower than China's.

Then point to the total number of scientific publications in Russia - you can't, it's still lower than China.

Then point to the citation rate per scientific article - you still can't, it's still lower than China's.

Russia just imported grain: UPDATE 1-Russia grain imports to soar in 2010/11-analysts | Reuters

Stop believing your nationalist propaganda. Wake up. Russian society cannot advance because of people like you. No matter how good China is doing, there are always people warning of crisis ahead. Russians would rather bury their head in the sand. This leads to individual high self esteem but national backwards.

I've worn Chinese shoes for 3 years btw.

This is a pathetic argument, picking and choosing? I'm not surprised, you were the same one that claimed Russia can not produce ships because they are not a top steel producing country, this was just moronic considering the US is not the biggest steel producer yet has the largest navy. The Philippines also does not have a large steel industry yet they are known for their large civil shipbuilding capacity. As I explained before many scientific publications and patents are totally worthless, they can include everything from anxiety studies to a better condom. If we take Israel, for example, we can see that it is nowhere near the US or China in many aspects such as scientific publications, or semiconductor industry yet Israel's technology is, and I’m sorry, light-years ahead of China, at least in many military fields. I also found it interesting that you felt that Russia importing grain was somehow a sign of weakness or a sign of a failing country. Because China has never imported grain? Or oil? Or coal? Or electronics? Or military hardware?
 
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Lol give me 1 time in the past 3 years China has imported Russian electronics. How many times has Russia imported Chinese electronics? :lol: Stop joking Stalin. No one believes your Russian propaganda anymore. No wonder the USSR fell to CIA propaganda, no one believes your sh*t besides yourself.

Arms industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 2009, China has imported less military products than the US! Will this trend reverse? Hell no, it hasn't reversed since 2005, why would it reverse now?

There is no Russian electronics company that can compare to SMIC, Huawei or ZTE. Not in revenue and not in terms of patents.

Foundry model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

18 CR Micro (1) People's Republic of ChinaChina - 143
Others 140

China's ZTE aims for top 3 in telecom gear | Reuters

Huawei becomes world's number two telecom company by revenue

Huawei Became Top International Patent Seeker in 2008

Huawei | VisitCHN

Also, what you said about scientific publications may be true, but the US is far more guilty of publishing psychology and medical articles for boosting numbers. For numbers in physical sciences and engineering:

SJR - International Science Ranking

China #1 in chemical engineering

SJR - International Science Ranking

#1 in Chemistry

SJR - International Science Ranking

13th in soft areas like Health Science!

SJR - International Science Ranking

2nd in soft areas like Biochemistry but only half that of the US!

You really expect us to believe Russia has alien technology when it can't publish scientific articles about it and can't get patents for it?
 
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QUOTE]

Lol give me 1 time in the past 3 years China has imported Russian electronics. Stop joking Stalin. No one believes your Russian propaganda anymore. No wonder the USSR fell to CIA propaganda, no one believes your sh*t besides yourself.

Arms industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 2009, China has imported less military products than the US! Will this trend reverse? Hell no, it hasn't reversed since 2005, why would it reverse now?

There is no Russian electronics company that can compare to SMIC, Huawei or ZTE. Not in revenue and not in terms of patents.

Foundry model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

18 CR Micro (1) People's Republic of ChinaChina - 143
Others 140

China's ZTE aims for top 3 in telecom gear | Reuters

Huawei becomes world's number two telecom company by revenue

Huawei Became Top International Patent Seeker in 2008

Huawei | VisitCHN

Also, what you said about scientific publications may be true, but the US is far more guilty of publishing psychology and medical articles for boosting numbers. For numbers in physical sciences and engineering:

SJR - International Science Ranking

China #1 in chemical engineering

SJR - International Science Ranking

#1 in Chemistry

SJR - International Science Ranking

13th in soft areas like Health Science!

SJR - International Science Ranking

2nd in soft areas like Biochemistry but only half that of the US!

Stop making a fool out of yourself with posting a bunch of vague crap. As stated before none of your junk is relevant. Your argument about steel production and shipbuilding was irrelevant and the above arguments are irrelevant. Semi conductor industries making top revenue does not equate into producing the most cutting edge technologies. Without China's massive population, China would not be on any list. China's influx of people spurt sales, sorry to break your hart. Again Revenue means nothing. Again if Chinese semiconductor industries were so great than China wouldn't use Russian electronic various military application, would it? So what is the excuse there? Seems like your precious Chinese semiconductor industry can't deliver.

As for China importing less arms than even the US it is not because Chinese arms are better or because China chooses not to import it is because no one is willing to sell China anything. The only country that is willing to offer China technology is Russia and there are even some Russian companies that refuse to sell China anything, at least on a small scale.

And please, do not come in here posting vague scientific ranking, 99% of that junk is just that junk! I have read and written about many scientific articles and most are irrelevant to the military. If scientific articles dictated progress Chinese aircraft engines would be world class and Russian engines would not be very good, but it is the other way around.

And, yes China imported Russian anti-submarine helicopter, equiped with radar, so the joke is on you.
 
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Are you seriously implying that scientific publications have no correlation to scientific ability and scientific ability has no correlation to industrial production?

:lol:

Wow, stay off the vodka OK?
 
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If toyota made a plasma TV, is that mean copy? a copy from whatever brand. because they are using same logic to design.
 
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I did not want to seem rude.
However, it is necessary.
It seems on the success of the Chinese economy have some problems with the external perception.
Cheap labor? Itself is not a shame? Or work for peanuts outside the Chinese Dream?
Tell us how valuable is better achieved an economic miracle? Share the successes of universal health insurance or compulsory pensions. All the economic achievements are due to the social obligations. The whole economy is like a pyramid. Beating the head of propaganda and attractive figures of the second economy in the world to the Chinese authorities can only delay the inevitable. As soon as the Chinese people want to eat well, dress, have a Social Security or have a decent salary pyramid collapses.

The difference between us is not in the mind or the physical size of the brain. The difference in the social environment.

At the expense of copies. A typical example is Bulava or Su 24. People sit and develop a new system. A whole new inherent risks and possible tragedies and setbacks. This work requires tremendous mental and physical costs. This is the Russian way.
The Chinese way is (no matter how much they themselves are not comforted by beautiful terms) a solid backup and attempt to improve. Moreover, attempts to reduce only the improvements to the capabilities of its industrial base.
Conclusion. Russia will always be ahead in scientific research. China will be able to create only that it will others.

On account of the statements about nationalism. I have the notion of Chinese nationalism and an inferiority complex. I eat a lot, what to say but so far I'm holding back. For a particularly zealous. All possible accusations and insults addressed to me for me indifferent. However, they may well show your intelligence. So you can not particularly shy. I'm curious.
 
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At the expense of copies. A typical example is Bulava or Su 24. People sit and develop a new system. A whole new inherent risks and possible tragedies and setbacks. This work requires tremendous mental and physical costs. This is the Russian way.
The Chinese way is (no matter how much they themselves are not comforted by beautiful terms) a solid backup and attempt to improve. Moreover, attempts to reduce only the improvements to the capabilities of its industrial base.
Conclusion. Russia will always be ahead in scientific research. China will be able to create only that it will others.

Bulava you say. You mean that POS that has failed half of its test firings while recently 6 JL 2s were launched successfully in a single test. Yes impressive indeed.

The missile has been specifically designed for Russia's new Borey class nuclear submarines.
Yury Solomonov, the designer of the troubled Bulava ballistic missile, said that the poor state of the Russian defense industry was the main cause of the weapon's failed test launches.

Solomonov resigned from his post as general director of the Moscow Institute of Thermal Technology (MITT) in July 2009 after a series of unsuccessful Bulava tests, but retained his post as general designer of the missile.

"I can say in earnest that none of the design solutions have been changed as a result of the tests. The problems occur in the links of the design-technology-production chain," Solomonov said in an interview with the Izvestia newspaper published on Tuesday.

"Sometimes [the problem] is poor-quality materials, sometimes it is the lack of necessary equipment to exclude the 'human' factor in production, sometimes it is inefficient quality control," he said.

The designer complained that the Russian industry is unable to provide Bulava manufacturers with at least 50 of the necessary components for production of the weapon. This forces designers to search for alternative solutions, seriously complicating the testing process.

The Bulava (SS-NX-30) is a three-stage liquid and solid propellant submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM). It carries up to ten MIRV warheads and has a range of over 8,000 kilometers (5,000 miles).

The missile has been specifically designed for Russia's new Borey class nuclear submarines.

Only five of 12 Bulava test launches from the Dmitry Donskoy sub have been officially reported as successful.
The future development of Bulava has been questioned by some lawmakers and defense industry officials who suggest that the Russian Navy should keep using the more reliable Sineva SLBM.

The RSM-54 Sineva (SS-N-23 Skiff) is a liquid-propellant SLBM designed for Delta IV class submarines that can carry up to 16 missiles each.

Solomonov questioned the viability of these statements saying the two missiles were incomparable both in terms of technology and performance characteristics.

A special investigation commission is expected to announce on May 30 the official results of a probe into the Bulava failures.

The Russian military has insisted that there is no alternative to the Bulava and pledged to continue testing the missile until it is ready to be deployed with the Navy. At least four new test launches of the missile have been planned for the end of June.

Solomonov vowed in the interview to continue work on the Bulava until it shows stable performance and is ready to join Russia's nuclear triad.

News.Az - Bulava missile designer blames industry for test failures

Can't even manufacture all the parts of a ballistic missile anymore. Absolutely pathetic.

As for Russia always being ahead. You're behind in everything besides a few niche military fields.

On account of the statements about nationalism. I have the notion of Chinese nationalism and an inferiority complex. I eat a lot, what to say but so far I'm holding back. For a particularly zealous. All possible accusations and insults addressed to me for me indifferent. However, they may well show your intelligence. So you can not particularly shy. I'm curious.

If you can't write coherent English then don't bother coming to a English forum. Its just freaking embarrassing. All I can say is that Russians still think its the Soviet days when people still gave a crap on whatever notions you had.
 
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Stop making a fool out of yourself with posting a bunch of vague crap. As stated before none of your junk is relevant. Your argument about steel production and shipbuilding was irrelevant and the above arguments are irrelevant. Semi conductor industries making top revenue does not equate into producing the most cutting edge technologies. Without China's massive population, China would not be on any list. China's influx of people spurt sales, sorry to break your hart. Again Revenue means nothing. Again if Chinese semiconductor industries were so great than China wouldn't use Russian electronic various military application, would it? So what is the excuse there? Seems like your precious Chinese semiconductor industry can't deliver.

As for China importing less arms than even the US it is not because Chinese arms are better or because China chooses not to import it is because no one is willing to sell China anything. The only country that is willing to offer China technology is Russia and there are even some Russian companies that refuse to sell China anything, at least on a small scale.

And please, do not come in here posting vague scientific ranking, 99% of that junk is just that junk! I have read and written about many scientific articles and most are irrelevant to the military. If scientific articles dictated progress Chinese aircraft engines would be world class and Russian engines would not be very good, but it is the other way around.

And, yes China imported Russian anti-submarine helicopter, equiped with radar, so the joke is on you.

mate as far as i can see below_freezing did not list vague craps but solid facts about how modern society is built on.

let me ask you a very simple question, how do you judge a country's scientific level and technology readness? because you always denying that factor that like steel production, semi-condactor, chemistry, R&D and other social factors.

Do you even know the fine correlation between science & technology and production capability? My bet is you do not know it at all.

As it is widly recognized that science and knowledge is a factor of production, and it is the most important factor, given its role in labour quality and design of the goods. and also the needs to produce the 'most' competitve products are the demand, incentive driving force for R&D and innovation. You can not derail the relationship of production capability with science and technology. its like buying a computer without a screen!!

China did import quite a few Russian kits in late 80s to early 00s, however the trend is very obvious that the defence imports went down dramatically after 2004, and it is going to be irreversible. China imports Russian weapons cannot prove anything that china is lack in science and technology of Russia, because, U.S, U.K even France is importing military kits from other countries dont mean they are lag in that respective areas!

The main reasons of China developed J-11B and J-15s were the fact that Russia cannot deliver the level of avionics and electronics for the foreseeable future electronic warfares. and PLA assessed the level of domestic electronic and semi-conductor industries can meet their requirement so they decided to go domestic to upgrade chinese flanker families.

And you always shouting about reliable sources, so tell me what is your reliable sources? isnt World Bank statistics are the reliable sources? is the IMF is the reliable sources? is the International Patent Cooperation Treaty (PCT) the reliable sources? Because all of those sources pointing at China is out pacing Russia in Science, Technology, production with the margin that is like at least 10 times, if you doubt I can forward you those sources?

Russia used to be Chinese teacher in most feilds but it does not mean Russia is going to guiding China forever, and you cannot dennying this fact.
 
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Bulava you say. You mean that POS that has failed half of its test firings while recently 6 JL 2s were launched successfully in a single test. Yes impressive indeed.

As if China discloses its failures. The Baluva is being designed as new system from the ground up, a very complex system. It's a hypersonic MIRV platform that is capable of carying 150 kt warheads. Countermeasures, propulsuion and guidence is also new. This is not a 'POS' and certainly not some old platform that has been upgraded. It's also ironic that China purchases or purchased various guidence and seeker systems from Russia and still to this day uses Russian systems or comes to Russia for design help. Can the same be said for Russia? Do we purchase from China? Do we take short cuts? Everything Russia does it does on its own.
 
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As if China discloses its failures. The Baluva is being designed as new system from the ground up, a very complex system. It's a hypersonic MIRV platform that is capable of carying 150 kt warheads. Countermeasures, propulsuion and guidence is also new. This is not a 'POS' and certainly not some old platform that has been upgraded. It's also ironic that China purchases or purchased various guidence and seeker systems from Russia and still to this day uses Russian systems or comes to Russia for design help. Can the same be said for Russia? Do we purchase from China? Do we take short cuts? Everything Russia does it does on its own.

You realize we are talking about Intercontinental SLBM launches right? It has to exit the atmosphere and travel close to 10,000 kilometers. If there was any failures US, and especially Russians would have monitored the entire thing and gloated all over it. So please spare me the typical BS excuses. Ironically you say that everything Russia does is on its own, and does not take shortcuts.

From the chief designer of the Baluva who subsequently quit.

The designer complained that the Russian industry is unable to provide Bulava manufacturers with at least 50 of the necessary components for production of the weapon.

So I wonder where those 50 necessary components came from. Out of your wet dreams?:D

Sometimes [the problem] is poor-quality materials, sometimes it is the lack of necessary equipment to exclude the 'human' factor in production, sometimes it is inefficient quality control," he said.

Yeah no short cuts at all.:lol:

There is nothing that radical in the Baluva that would force this many failures and is the primary fault of shortcuts, and poor quality control.

Russia does everything on its own and buys nothing? What is the Mistral class then? A yacht?;)
 
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Unofficial troll of these boards: ptldM3

When you are dead poor or quasi bankrupt for more than ten years, everything in your overall ability to research and produce will suffer greatly in every single field, civilian or military. If that's too hard to understand, then you shouldn't be surprised at the current state you are in.:yahoo:

Why doesn't F-22 resemble to the F-15 or F-16 physically? Lockheed's annual
R&D budget probably exceeds the entire Russian aviation industry's for the past years. Look at that most recent Su-27 "clone" that you are so proud of.

Get real or keep fouling yourself in your utopia imagining R&D can be done with very limited resources.
 
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