Shed insecurities: India to Pakistan

[Aslan]

What's the point of even arguing about Indo-Pak relations. Pakistan is extremely destabilised as we speak. The northern part of that nation is controlled by the Taliban. The USA uses parts of Pakistan as a training ground for their unmanned drones. The government of Pakistan no longer speak for a majority of its people even though the nation has the window dressing of a democracy. The military is regarded as a threat to the elected government at al times who cannot in fact conduct a formidable foreign policy without the military's consensus. Assuming that the current government of Pakistan reaches consensus with the government of India in respect of Kashmir (for example Pakistan is allocated a certain portion of Kashmir and India keeps the rest) , when that government is out of power or expelled, then the agreement falls away. Some ranting raving populist who comes into power will then change the goalposts. Even if for example the whole of Kashmir is ceded to Pakistan, who in Pakistan is going to stop the fringe groups who believe that India needs to be conquered and converted to Islam as per the Akhand Bharat policy? Regretably it is way too costly for India to even contemplate a friendly relationship with Pakistan and I believe that even Indian politicians know that. It is just a matter of placating the world into believing that India will take a soft line on a disrupted Pakistan that these talks are being held. India has no need to destabilise Pakistan. It will be a waste of Indian resources for India to do so. Pakistanis with the assitance of their Afghani brothers are doing a great job of destabilising their nation without our help. Offcourse they will forever enviously look over their borders at a virtually stable and emerging India and lump all their blame on India. For now all India needs to do is concentrate on its relationship with neighbours who have no dispute with it and to continue isolating itself from its hostile neighbours. Pakistan was never , is never and will never be a formidable threat to India either militarily or economically and their sending young brainwashed boys to annex Kashmir is tantamount to Osama Bin Laden believing that by bombing the twin towers , he will conquer the USA. All that Osama did was to give legitimacy internationally to American imperialism. All that Pakistan does is give legitmacy internationally to Indian claim of Kashmiri ownership. To that extent India has played the monkey pot with Pakistan when it comes to the issue of Kashmir

I though that after putting in such an effort you would have the commonsense to at least come up with some thing to talk about. But nope, same old bs different person. Carry on guys. Its getting funnier as the initial anger is subsiding I can start to see the funny side of it.

 

[blueoval79]

Well i did not said anything about the PM, i said Ms, which was for the Foreign Secretary as she is a lady.

Apologies for misunderstanding

Yes it is an official Indian statement, but in the past we have seen many hawkish statements also from the establishment.

Thats diplomacy for you...blow hot blow cold....it happens from both sides...so nothing new....

And before reminding me of the Kargil, do yourself remember what India did in 71.

Well if you can remember something that happened 50 years ago....Kargil is fairly recent....

Don't come up with the refugee excuse, as that is no excuse for arming and training people for insurgency.

Well....Bangla Insurgency was strong....and needed relative less push from India ....unlike Pakistani funded Insurgencies....Khalistan...did not happen ....and Kashmir ...well looks like it will never happen....so there is something wrong ...either with Pakistani choice of insurgencies...or may be Pakistanis are not good at it ...or Indians simply don't want to be instigated by Pakistani concepts of so called Azadi....

Hadn't 9/11 happened, the tables would have been different,

Thank your good friend Osama Bin laden for that....

let US exit, then we will see.

Well that will happen sometime....but till then we have got the lead ...so we intend to build upon it.....

Thats geopolitics for you....

And don't worry, your number will come also and we will reply in the same manner, this is a cat & mouse game which will keep continuing, till one gets fully destroyed or peace finally prevails.

Going by the history of Indo Pak relationship..... all Pakistan funded insurgencies have been a wuzz...so far...and India has scored......so may be we will teach some lessons to Pakistani policy makers next time something happens.

 

[Kasrkin]

The discourse in this thread has been very disappointing so far. Refrain from personal attacks or rants, I won't say this again.

Everyone needs to take a step back and calm down.

The Indian foreign secretary made a statement and it is our job as educated Pakistanis to address it, particularly in light of all this talk of friendship these days. We need to compose and deliver our views to the other side effectively.

“We sincerely desire peace with Pakistan. We have to learn to live with the asymmetries in our sizes and capabilities. Such differences of scale should not deter us from working with each other. Pakistan should shed its insecurity on these counts,” she said.

To me this made very little sense. Pakistan's so called 'insecurity' is only a perception, and a demeaning one at that, held by Indians like Ms. Rao who are naive enough to believe that Pakistan is threatened by India's 'greatness' alone. If that logic was real then Pakistan would not be such a comfortable partner to China or such a close ally to the US, both of which are much larger than India is in every sense. If Pakistan is guarded with India, there is obviously more to it than simple asymmetries.

Pakistan will always want to be treated equally and will not accept Indian hegemony. It is interesting how to some Indian minds this means Pakistan is not willing to 'live with the asymmetries in our sizes and capabilities...' Size itself doesn't mean the right to dominate or dictate, perhaps Mr. Rao should analyze her own flawed understandings of our present and future relationships before seeking to advise Pakistan.

If Pakistan has insecurities in regards to India then there are logical reasons for this which I hope our Indian friends should come up with the courage to see. One glaring reason for our concern is India's Pakistan-specific preemptive Cold Start doctrine. History is also full of precedents which have lead to an unfavorable, or atleast guarded, Pakistani view of India.

We can go into these if you like, but there are many. Fairly regular menacing statements from Indian military leaders don't help either. India's massive military budget and unwillingness to address Kashmir which is demonstrated-ly the cause of so much tension between us would trouble any country with even the remotest regard for its national security. We cannot and will not trust in India's good graces to guarantee our national interests. We will do what we can ourselves, however that is no reason why we cannot work together. Pakistan is obviously making an effort. Retarded statements like this designed to achieve little more than a taunt do not help in my view.

'Ms Rao also reminded Pakistan that despite misguided and serious provocations, India has exhibited true restraint...'

This is hardly the type of superior, condescending statement one seeking true peace and reconciliation would make. The only 'restraint' India has exhibited is that imposed on it by realistic self-interest which has discouraged it to go to war with the Pakistani military. We need to look no further than India's reaction to the Mumbai attacks to see why India back off, and it wasn't because India was gracious.

'The foreign secretary said terrorism as a continuation of war by other means and the use of terrorist groups selectively as strategic assets against India cannot and must not continue...'

This is hardly peace making. She is again accusing Pakistan of employing terrorist groups as strategic assets against India without substantiation. This is back to the same old pattern. Instead of encouraging or acknowledging Pakistan's efforts in the WoT, all she has to say is this:

'Pakistan must act effectively against those terrorist groups that seek to nullify and to destroy the prospects of peace and cooperation between our two countries...'

Again, this is not what you call reconciliatory. Not even so much as an implication of an acknowledgment, but loads of veiled accusations.

’There is a trust deficit. Some also refer to a vision deficit, especially since India has over the years sought to spell out a broader vision of our relationship while a similar definition has not been easy for Pakistan to enunciate…’

If India has an unrealistic vision for our relationship where India dictates the agenda, assumes superiority while ignoring or sidelining Pakistan's concerns then that’s not much of a vision. Other than that I don't know of what 'vision' India has 'sought to spell'. Pakistan lacking a vision is still better than Pakistan trying to impose one that is counter-productive to peace in the region.

 

[TaimiKhan]

What's the point of even arguing about Indo-Pak relations. Pakistan is extremely destabilised as we speak. The northern part of that nation is controlled by the Taliban. The USA uses parts of Pakistan as a training ground for their unmanned drones. The government of Pakistan no longer speak for a majority of its people even though the nation has the window dressing of a democracy. The military is regarded as a threat to the elected government at al times who cannot in fact conduct a formidable foreign policy without the military's consensus. Assuming that the current government of Pakistan reaches consensus with the government of India in respect of Kashmir (for example Pakistan is allocated a certain portion of Kashmir and India keeps the rest) , when that government is out of power or expelled, then the agreement falls away. Some ranting raving populist who comes into power will then change the goalposts. Even if for example the whole of Kashmir is ceded to Pakistan, who in Pakistan is going to stop the fringe groups who believe that India needs to be conquered and converted to Islam as per the Akhand Bharat policy? Regretably it is way too costly for India to even contemplate a friendly relationship with Pakistan and I believe that even Indian politicians know that. It is just a matter of placating the world into believing that India will take a soft line on a disrupted Pakistan that these talks are being held. India has no need to destabilise Pakistan. It will be a waste of Indian resources for India to do so. Pakistanis with the assitance of their Afghani brothers are doing a great job of destabilising their nation without our help. Offcourse they will forever enviously look over their borders at a virtually stable and emerging India and lump all their blame on India. For now all India needs to do is concentrate on its relationship with neighbours who have no dispute with it and to continue isolating itself from its hostile neighbours. Pakistan was never , is never and will never be a formidable threat to India either militarily or economically and their sending young brainwashed boys to annex Kashmir is tantamount to Osama Bin Laden believing that by bombing the twin towers , he will conquer the USA. All that Osama did was to give legitimacy internationally to American imperialism. All that Pakistan does is give legitmacy internationally to Indian claim of Kashmiri ownership. To that extent India has played the monkey pot with Pakistan when it comes to the issue of Kashmir

Well won't go fully to answer your argument as the highlighted parts are more then enough to tell about the level of knowledge you have about Pakistan.

And as said before, why don't you first see how much of India is not being governed by Indian govt itself and is under the control of insurgents and how much large part it is under insurgency hit.

 

[sulemani keeda]

When India also stops using terrorism as a tool, then we will think about it also.

We never get criticised for the alleged "terrorism" you are referring to. You are world champions as an epicenter of terrorism. Do I need to tell you how many terror plots link to pakistan??

See the difference??

So please dont compare us with pakistan at least in this regard. No one believes your terrorism charges against us. ANd even those charges are for domestic sonsumption only. The last thing I heard on this was by your very own PM that pakistan has evidence of Indian involvement but it will share it with the world at appropriate time. That was a year back.

I hope that "appropriate time" is not 3076 AD.

 

[username]

Well unfortunately, that is exactly the BS stories that the Bollywood uses in its movies, not the other way around. As our industry is not in love with such BS stories or in love with anti-Indian stories.

Anyways I don't like Bollywood or for that matter any other film industries in my country that much. But thanks for agreeing with me that the earlier story was a BS story.

Its GoP, not PoG, so mind it what you are writing.

I wrote in the same sense that we do NOT care whether it is by GoP or Mars, it was never intended to demean GoP, please understand the difference. I simply meant to say that we don't care who does it, we only care about who is responsible to controll it. when terrorists are coming from Pakistan, GoI asking GoP to uproot terrorist infrastructure in their country is perfectly valid, isn't it ?

Thanks for your advice, first fully govern all of your own country, then let us be known your advice.

In every country, there are large amount of land which is not under observation by the govt, lot of things can keep on going in them, this is a global phenomenon.

Agree with you that there is some part of country (mainly jungles) which are not under the full control of GoI, and necessary steps are being taken for that problem.

However the problem here is that the controlled/semi-controlled/uncontrolled territory of Pakistan is being used for terrorism against other countries. As long as it is kept inside your own country the world will sympathize for your sufferings, but here this is not the case, your country's terrorists are crossing the LOC, which your government is fully accountable. Let me know your opinion on this so that we can proceed further in our discussions.

 

[Spring Onion]

Quick question? i know you are Mod! don't ban me for it.

What is your contingency plan if USA does not leave the region and instead further establishes herself in the Region, now more so bec. Afghanistan has Lithium / Iron ore deposits worth Trillion $$$?

Or are you looking at another giant kill with help of China ?

Indians have a habit of running to find their ear without checking if the ear is in place already or not. Same is the case with regards to this 'discovery' of Lithium and if you think US is for Lithium then well


Coming back to your question about US presence oh well we will prefer US over India in this case.


US can remain in the region, improve its relations further with Pakistan army and both can protect the interests of all there i.e US, Afghanistan, Pakistan.

 

[vsdoc]

I am just so tired of all this man. I am really surprised though that guys like Asim who are in terms of tenure dinosaurs here actually can summon the enthusiasm to go at it anew with each new generation of Indian posters. I mean come on guys! Asim, Taimi, Khalid, other Pakistanis here. You guys are educated, intelligent, well spoken .... why the hell do we do this?

Give me proof says one. Tumne kiya, to ab mera chance says another. A third will come in with a huge dusty silverant nibbled tome from the hoary UN archives. Do you guys seriously believe what you are spouting here? Do you honestly believe for a milisecond that you have the chance of a snowflake in hell of getting our Kashmir? Is it just you doing your patriotic duty here by parroting the line "Do plebiscite, give us Kashmir, let peace prevail"???? I mean come ON!!!!!!!!!! You are not uneducated workers in the fields of your feudal lords for crying out loud.

Taimi, you are sitting in Pakistan. In Peshawar. Where you guys have lost so many lives. The others are not in Pakistan. But you are. Do you honestly feel the blood is worth it? You feel its us Indians who are responsible? Well, say for a moment, I agree with you. Yes, my country is teaching you a lesson. Then what? What has your country being doing since the late 80s in mine brother? You say ominously, let the amrikis go, fir tujhe dekh lenge. Arre bhai, dekhne ke liye hamari fauj bhi tainat hai. So where does this end?

And more importantly, does Pakistan want it to end? Coz believe me, you guys know in your heart of hearts, patriotic chants notwithstanding, which country is winning this war of attrition. And its not going to get any better for you guys either. You dont have water. You go back home after a hard day's work to a house with no electricity. You ink a deal with Iran to give you gas you can ill afford. Which will light your homes 2 years from today. By which time there will be million more homes to light. You have mineral resource rich Balochistan, but have spent the last 60 years neglecting the region and its people, while concentrating your every resource on those of one of our states.

Why? Take care of pakistanis first brother. We are more than capable of taking care of our own. There is so much you can gain from our friendship. And so much more you can lose by keeping the embers of enemity glowing by fueling it with your hate.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Dr.Evil]

Indians have a habit of running to find their ear without checking if the ear is in place already or not. Same is the case with regards to this 'discovery' of Lithium and if you think US is for Lithium then well


Coming back to your question about US presence oh well we will prefer US over India in this case.


US can remain in the region, improve its relations further with Pakistan army and both can protect the interests of all there i.e US, Afghanistan, Pakistan.

Keep your patronizing attitude to yourself and maybe for your fellow countrymen.

Economics seems to be out of your leauge of understanding.

 

[ameer219]

dude, that is only a allegation, members in this forum NEVER gave anything called as proof for that allegation.

These guys are mentally affected about the fact that the Taliban they created is kicking their *** badly.

So they want to find solace, and because of that though deep down they know that it was created by them, they choose to blame others, what a sick mindset.

You know, I was just about to create peace between both sides, but after seeing your ridiculous statement on this, it looks like I have to settle the score with you first.


Firstly, Pakistan has made considerable success when they occupied Swat and South Waziristan.

Are our As$es getting kicked?

Not only did we occupy Swat and SW, but Pakistan military successes faster and better than NATO and US force, but we manage to do it with a messed up economy, power shortage and highly instable political leader in 2009.

We even caught the the second man of Taliban severely bringing down the morale of Taliban.

Is our As$es still getting kicked.?

Now look at where we are today, bombings in Pakistan have severely dropped, by the installation of bombing detector devices, which are entering through major cities.

We stabilised Swat, and people are generally happy with the army and respect them a lot. Shops are opening up there, and tourism are going to continue as per-normal

Not only are we doing that, the Pakistan Army, whom are looked up and highly respected more than the Government by the common people, are giving education the kids, and repairing the infrastructure, so as to keep the children educated so that they won't be prey to the Taliban ideology.

Today, you may make fun of Pakistan, about its bombings and everything, but only a Pakistani who lost his husband/wife, siblings, parents, best friends, will understand the danger of terrorism.

So I shall advice you to be wise, and not make fun. Peace



To all the other members,

We as Indians/Pakistani, should not always look only at our differences on Kashmir issue, but also at our similarities, like combating terrorism.

As Pakistanis, we could always share our combat experience with the Indians on how to combat the Maoists, and in return, India could teach us on how to sustain our economy.

We are like blood brothers from the same mother man, we should stop fighting and try to build trust with each other, and this is the only way to it.

I am sure non of us hate each other to the core. I know that they are a lot of good heart-ed Indians out there who wants peace.

I read an article recently, that both Indians and Pakistanis businessmen are persuading their own government for more access to trade with each other. If these people are trying their best to remove this anti-sentiments, I am sure we could make an effort to. And this will definitely remove the trust gap between both of us.


Just my 2 cents, feel free to disagree.

 

[TaimiKhan]

We never get criticised for the alleged "terrorism" you are referring to. You are world champions as an epicenter of terrorism. Do I need to tell you how many terror plots link to pakistan??

See the difference??

So please dont compare us with pakistan at least in this regard. No one believes your terrorism charges against us. ANd even those charges are for domestic sonsumption only. The last thing I heard on this was by your very own PM that pakistan has evidence of Indian involvement but it will share it with the world at appropriate time. That was a year back.

I hope that "appropriate time" is not 3076 AD.

epicenter of terrorism, is what the Indians have to say. As they have nothing else to do in international forums except for whining, be it your PM on a visit to US or Saudi Arabia or that FM of yours.

And for your kind info, even the US general in his last assessment report very well indirectly pointed out the Indian influence in relations to Pakistan, which is very much clear, that he knows what the Indians are upto.

Definitely they can't say it clearly, as they have just found a new Cash Cow for milking money and need a counter against China, so when it is US favor, they even justify killing of innocents as an act of self defence and the right of the killer.

And everyone believes in what is India upto, but as said, they have found a cash cow, so won't say a thing.

 

[sulemani keeda]

And everyone believes in what is India upto, but as said, they have found a cash cow, so won't say a thing.

^^^
There are many bankrupt cows in the world. In more pathetic state as compared to pakistan (AFG, NK, Somalia etc and all notorious). Then why they are spared and only pakistan is up for blames. Sorry, your theory is not convincing.

 

[Aslan]

^^^
There are many bankrupt cows in the world. In more pathetic state as compared to pakistan (AFG, NK, Somalia etc and all notorious). Then why they are spared and only pakistan is up for blames. Sorry, your theory is not convincing.

And do you think that Pakistan's economy is the only reason that the US is all double crossing us, and letting india away with any thing when it comes to harming Pakistan. No my friend, that is not the only case alot of it has to do with our location, and the main reason (that you guys wont understand) is religious.

It is a very complicated matter.

 

[Jade]

To all the other members,

We as Indians/Pakistani, should not always look only at our differences on Kashmir issue, but also at our similarities, like combating terrorism.

As Pakistanis, we could always share our combat experience with the Indians on how to combat the Maoists, and in return, India could teach us on how to sustain our economy.

We are like blood brothers from the same mother man, we should stop fighting and try to build trust with each other, and this is the only way to it.

I am sure non of us hate each other to the core. I know that they are a lot of good heart-ed Indians out there who wants peace.

I read an article recently, that both Indians and Pakistanis businessmen are persuading their own government for more access to trade with each other. If these people are trying their best to remove this anti-sentiments, I am sure we could make an effort to. And this will definitely remove the trust gap between both of us.


Just my 2 cents, feel free to disagree.

ameer, I couldn't agree with you more.

I sincerely advise people not to use derogatory words against a country such as ‘Epicenter of Terrorism’, ‘failed state’ etc…Arguments can be civilized. We have no right to play with issues which are emotional in nature. We can defend our position on Kashmir or any other issue without resorting to personal attacks

 

[username]

You know, I was just about to create peace between both sides, but after seeing your ridiculous statement on this, it looks like I have to settle the score with you first.


Firstly, Pakistan has made considerable success when they occupied Swat and South Waziristan.

Are our As$es getting kicked?

Not only did we occupy Swat and SW, but Pakistan military successes faster and better than NATO and US force, but we manage to do it with a messed up economy, power shortage and highly instable political leader in 2009.

We even caught the the second man of Taliban severely bringing down the morale of Taliban.

Is our As$es still getting kicked.?

Now look at where we are today, bombings in Pakistan have severely dropped, by the installation of bombing detector devices, which are entering through major cities.

We stabilised Swat, and people are generally happy with the army and respect them a lot. Shops are opening up there, and tourism are going to continue as per-normal

Not only are we doing that, the Pakistan Army, whom are looked up and highly respected more than the Government by the common people, are giving education the kids, and repairing the infrastructure, so as to keep the children educated so that they won't be prey to the Taliban ideology.

Today, you may make fun of Pakistan, about its bombings and everything, but only a Pakistani who lost his husband/wife, siblings, parents, best friends, will understand the danger of terrorism.

So I shall advice you to be wise, and not make fun. Peace



To all the other members,

We as Indians/Pakistani, should not always look only at our differences on Kashmir issue, but also at our similarities, like combating terrorism.

As Pakistanis, we could always share our combat experience with the Indians on how to combat the Maoists, and in return, India could teach us on how to sustain our economy.

We are like blood brothers from the same mother man, we should stop fighting and try to build trust with each other, and this is the only way to it.

I am sure non of us hate each other to the core. I know that they are a lot of good heart-ed Indians out there who wants peace.

I read an article recently, that both Indians and Pakistanis businessmen are persuading their own government for more access to trade with each other. If these people are trying their best to remove this anti-sentiments, I am sure we could make an effort to. And this will definitely remove the trust gap between both of us.


Just my 2 cents, feel free to disagree.

Ameer, you have all the rights to condemn my post, as it said "all guys" instead of "some guys" ....

Anyways, I was pissed off that some people keep mentioning that India is behind your country's terrorist attacks, and when asked for proof nothing comes out...

Anyways I would say it is good that Pakistan is getting rid of terrorists faster...

And I take back all my offensive comments so far because of your such a good attitude towards both our countries...

thanks and I will see to that I do not generalise like "all of these guys"... and also will see to that I will not write comments like "***** are getting kicked" ...

back to what I was asking, PROOF...