Sharper claws for Coast Guard as 30 advanced copters set for induction

[Abingdonboy]

When terrorists struck Mumbai in the later hours of November 26, 2008, a dumbfounded security set up wandered around seeking answers about the infiltration of the ten Pakistani gunmen. It was a Coast Guard Chetak helicopter which flew over Mumbai's skyline to track down the now-infamous fishing vessel Kuber which was hijacked and used as a means of entry.

Back then, the planners in the Indian Coast Guard (ICG) asked the government to arm it with more helicopters which could perform better. They said it would enhance their capabilities to monitor the seas manifold. Nothing came of it.

If things go as planned, the Coast Guard looks set to ride the air with newer, more powerful and versatile helicopters. The ICG, which has the mandate to save lives at sea as well as maintain a vigil along the country's maritime borders and exclusive economic zones (EEZ), is on the cusp of signing the dotted line in two separate cases for helicopter acquisition. Cases to procure at least 30 advanced helicopters of the type never been used before have fructified near- simultaneously for the ICG, revealed a top Ministry of Defence (MoD) officer who did not wish to identify himself.

The first involves procuring 16 self-made Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) Dhruv from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), a MoD Public Sector Undertaking (PSU). While the ICG had procured four these copters earlier as well, they were Mk I version and this time they are looking at an advanced MkIII version which promises a glass cockpit, enhanced performance, better interior among other things. Powered by Shakti engine (Indian name for Ardiden 1H1 engine co-developed by HAL and French firm Turbomeca), the 5.5 ton aircraft can do speeds up to 300 kmph. Feedback received from those who've flown the helicopter has been overwhelmingly positive. A source revealed that the cost is likely to be in the range of Rs 90 crore a piece.

"While the field evaluation and negotiations over cost have both been concluded, the Coast Guard is working with the navy to arrange for the funds for this procurement. Navy is also interested in the same procuring 16 MkIII ALH Dhruv helicopters and the case was pursued jointly from the very start," explained a source. The proposal will soon be placed before the Cabinet Committee of Security (CCS) the apex body for clearing procurement above Rs 1000 crore for it approval.

MEDIUM LIFT HELICOPTERS

In addition to the ALH Dhruv, what has also progressed is the acquisition of 14 medium lift helicopters. The MoD had found the EC725 of France-based Airbus Helicopters the most suitable bidder last year. The aircraft marketed as H225M falls in the 11 ton category and is a twin engine helicopter which can carry up to 30 passengers. While it is meant for shore-based flying the aircraft can also have its rotor blades folded so as to fit into the hangar on board a ship. It was revealed that the entire set of trials and negotiations with the firm had also been completed and the matter was in the 'final stage'. "The office of the Director General of Acquisition had certain queries and those are being answered," explained a source.

"The consolidated contract value of these acquisitions is over Rs 5000 crore spread over years," a source explained.

Interestingly, the H225M/EC725 is the military variant of EC225, the helicopter which had emerged the most suitable in the initial process of the VVIP helicopter procurement case back in 2003. The case was called off, however, as the EC225 then owned by Eurocopter was found to be the only vendor available and the government wanted more participants. The subsequent, tainted acquisition process saw the selection of AgustaWestland AW101 copter.

At present, the ICG is in a precarious position as its main workhorse, fleet of 20 Chetak helicopters is being pushed to its limits. Single engine helicopters, Chetaks have been a part of India's armed forces since 1965. "In reality, rules forbid a single engine copter to undertake flying over sea but we are doing it as there is no option," revealed a source. With a top speed of 185kmph and endurance of under three hours, the Chetak can't possibly fly too deep at sea. Such has been the crunch that despite having the space on board ships in the form of hangars, the ICG has nixed the very concept of integral flying - having dedicated copters assigned to ships.

Explained a Coast Guard officer who is at present commanding a ship, "When a ship moves to patrol, having a helicopter on board can help it monitor a much larger area. It simply expands the reach by leaps and bounds". The government, he said, should finally act.


http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...anced-copters-set-for-induction/1/709885.html




@PARIKRAMA @anant_s @Taygibay @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Levina @Dash @Stephen Cohen @Vergennes @ito @hellfire @fsayed @Water Car Engineer

There is a HUGE demand for the H225M in India by all 4 services (ICG, IAF, IN and IA) and Airbus Military have already said they will set up a production line for this type in India with Mahindra if/when they receive enough orders for the type. The MoD/GoI need to get their act together and go for a joint buy to serve all services, as it stands this 14 unit buy will be ordered off the shelf and imported. If the MoD at least combined the ICG and IN's requirements Airbus and Mahindra could start setting up their production line in India very soon, but right now the requirements are seperate and the ICG's order will be placed this year and the IN's at some point in the next 2-3 years.

Time to start thinking strategically and maximising the benfits for India whilst also making efficencies, isn't this what Parrikar claims his goal is??

Act like a backwards nation, and you will be treated as such.


+ From what I understand, the ICG's and IN's order for 32 MK.3 ALHs has already been placed.

 

[Grevion]

Always loved the catchy headlines by our media.
"Coastguards are getting new sharper claws".
What are they. Reptiles?

 

[Agent_47]

Time to start thinking strategically and maximising the benfits for India whilst also making efficencies, isn't this what Parrikar claims his goal is??

Why not go full indian ?
There is no active plan for heavier helicopter after the Dhruv. Why don't start a JV for a 12.5 ton helicopter.

IN boosts itself as indigenous first, but every ship going helicopter will be foreign made. Panther/ Seahawk / H225M could be the possible mix of around 250 for $8+ billion. Order 100 Panther and 60+ Seahawk with mahindra and TATA respectively. In the mean time make a 12 ton + helicopter with foreign partner. There you go an outstanding helicopter ecosystem in 10 years.
@PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar

 

[fsayed]

I think parikar is more interested in indian medium lift helicopter (IMRH) Co-Design and co-production of a 10 Ton class Medium Lift Helicopter is proposed to be taken with an international helicopter manufacturer to meet the requirement of the 3 Indian Defence Services. This approach is taken to shorten the development timeframe.
The Helicopter will be powered by twin engines and will feature blade folding option for ship deck operations. The variant for Army/IAF will support Air assault, Air Transport, Combat logistic, Combat search & rescue and casualty evacuation operations. The naval variant will be developed for Anti Submarine Warfare and Anti Surface Vessel Strike roles

Specifications Edit

General characteristics

Crew: 2
Capacity: 28 seated troops
Payload: 4,500 kg ()
Length: ()
Wingspan: ()
Height: ()
Max. takeoff weight: 13 tons ()
Performance

Maximum speed: 275 km/h
Range: 500 km ()
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Medium_Lift_Helicopter

 

[Abingdonboy]

Why not go full indian ?
There is no active plan for heavier helicopter after the Dhruv. Why don't start a JV for a 12.5 ton helicopter.

IN boosts itself as indigenous first, but every ship going helicopter will be foreign made. Panther/ Seahawk / H225M could be the possible mix of around 250 for $8+ billion. Order 100 Panther and 60+ Seahawk with mahindra and TATA respectively. In the mean time make a 12 ton + helicopter with foreign partner. There you go an outstanding helicopter ecosystem in 10 years.
@PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar

The problem is work on the 12 ton IMRH has not even begun as of yet and likely won't be for another 3-4 years meaning the first IMRH won't be in service before 2027 (at the earliest). The IN ( and ICG and IAF) cannot afford to wait over a decade for these platforms and thus going for the H225M made in India would be a GREAT option and will be the best bridge until the IMRH is up and running.

It's interesting because I had thought along the same lines as you a few years ago when the IN had first kicked off their 12 ton NMRH procurement. But I had discussed this with a friend who had pointed out the above to me and also pointed out that the IAF, not the IN, will be the first force to get the IMRH as a replacement for their Mi-17s in the long run. Given the fact that the IAF is ordering brand new Mi-17s (V5s) today there is no immediate demand for the IMRH and HAL can afford to focus on other projects (ALH, LCH and LUH). The IMRH will be ready for induction by 2030 IMHO, just in time to start replacing the first Mi-17 V5s that the IAF had inducted in 2010.

 

[Agent_47]

The problem is work on the 12 ton IMRH has not even begun as of yet and likely won't be for another 3-4 years meaning the first IMRH won't be in service before 2027 (at the earliest). The IN ( and ICG and IAF) cannot afford to wait over a decade for these platforms and thus going for the H225M made in India would be a GREAT option and will be the best bridge until the IMRH is up and running.

Since IN is now operating 60 or so vintage helicopters, why can't they wait for 5-6 year when 160 Panther/Seahawk combo fill the basic requirements?. This will be a JV so i think 5-6 year time development is plausible.

IMHO, a para military should make use of of things we have in house. Go for more ALH or CG Seahawk. Going for H225M without IN commonality is stupidity considering their budget restrictions.

It's interesting because I had thought along the same lines as you a few years ago when the IN had first kicked off their 12 ton NMRH procurement. But I had discussed this with a friend who had pointed out the above to me and also pointed out that the IAF, not the IN, will be the first force to get the IMRH as a replacement for their Mi-17s in the long run. Given the fact that the IAF is ordering brand new Mi-17s (V5s) today there is no immediate demand for the IMRH and HAL can afford to focus on other projects (ALH, LCH and LUH). The IMRH will be ready for induction by 2030 IMHO, just in time to start replacing the first Mi-17 V5s that the IAF had inducted in 2010.

About Mi-17, is there offsets and MRO part of the 150 already ordered v5 choppers?

IN, ICG, IAF (VIP) requirements are immediate why not go for it ? (Mi 17 replacement in long term). Also, ALH, LCH, LUH projects are nearly done by 2018.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Since IN is now operating 60 or so vintage helicopters, why can't they wait for 5-6 year when 160 Panther/Seahawk combo fill the basic requirements?. This will be a JV so i think 5-6 year time development is plausible.

The IMRH will not be in service before 2026 if work was started today, the IN and ICG cannot afford to wait another 10+ years.

IMHO, a para military should make use of of things we have in house. Go for more ALH or CG Seahawk. Going for H225M without IN commonality is stupidity considering their budget restrictions.

The IN and ICG will have commonality with both operating the H225M.

About Mi-17, is there offsets and MRO part of the 150 already ordered v5 choppers?

There is MRO facilties in India for the Mi-17 family.

IN, ICG, IAF (VIP) requirements are immediate why not go for it ? (Mi 17 replacement in long term)

The development time is too long bro, that is why.

+The IAF's requirements are not just for the VVIP fleet but for the CSAR role, they have an outstanding requirement of 40 birds and are looking at the H225M and CV-22 as we speak.

Also, ALH, LCH, LUH projects are nearly done by 2018.

But it will still take a hell of a lot HAL's resources to put these birds into mass production and contonually develop them (as they have done with the ALH). I think there will only be enough spare capacity by around 2019 within HAL to switch over to the IMRH.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I think parikar is more interested in indian medium lift helicopter (IMRH) Co-Design and co-production of a 10 Ton class Medium Lift Helicopter is proposed to be taken with an international helicopter manufacturer to meet the requirement of the 3 Indian Defence Services. This approach is taken to shorten the development timeframe.

Airbus Military would be the logical option here and it can be part of the H225M sale IF India is smart enough to tie that in with the purchase (just like the French are proposing with the Kaveri as part of the Rafale sale) . Too many of these opportunities have been lost because there has been a lack of innovative thinking.

 

[Hellfire]

@Abingdonboy Thanks for the tag.

These babies are purely your domain, I am merely a spectator!!!! Great posts as usual and thanks to @fsayed and @Agent_47 for interesting inputs.

There is no clarity yet on Indian Army's requirement of heli class for its proposed aviation brigades. As of now, Mi-17V5s are all we have invested in for our Heliborne Ops role with support of ALH. Diversification is a good idea, but not for the armed forces IMO.

There is a need for commonality of platform at least between the three services in order to augment the efforts for the proposed marine forces which shall help in minimising the logistic chain in support of an amphibious operation within the Indian Ocean littoral.

With the interesting developments that we are seeing in South East Asia post UNCLOS ruling against Chiina, the need to bolster the now cold stored proposal for dedicated marine forces will gather pace. In such a scenario, better sense requires a commonality.

Awaiting your inputs gentlemen and ladies if any.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

@Abingdonboy and @PARIKRAMA

If the requirements of all the 4 arms about tactical lift helo is clubbed , won't it be atleast 200? And this is quite a big number ,why not proceed here like KAI Surion?

We get an Indian Medium Category helicopter....

Why not go full indian ?
There is no active plan for heavier helicopter after the Dhruv. Why don't start a JV for a 12.5 ton helicopter.

IN boosts itself as indigenous first, but every ship going helicopter will be foreign made. Panther/ Seahawk / H225M could be the possible mix of around 250 for $8+ billion. Order 100 Panther and 60+ Seahawk with mahindra and TATA respectively. In the mean time make a 12 ton + helicopter with foreign partner. There you go an outstanding helicopter ecosystem in 10 years.
@PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar

 

[Abingdonboy]

If the requirements of all the 4 arms about tactical lift helo is clubbed , won't it be atleast 200? And this is quite a big number ,why not proceed here like KAI Surion?

The reason why? Time, or rather the lack of.

The ICG, IN and to an extent the IAF (only in the most specilised roles, not as a general replacement for the Mi-17 V5) have an outstanding requirement for these 12 ton MRH that has been unfulfileld for years, they can't wait another decade for such birds. There is no need to go the KAI Surion JV route, HAL has enough expertise in-house to develop their own products and are evolving at admiral pace to deliver an ever expanding portfolio with added complexity at every stage. By the end of this decade (when the LCH, ALH, LUH etc are in service in good numbers) they will have ample capacity to work on the IMRH, but not today.

Furthermore, depending on how the IA's aviation brigades are developed in the next decade, it may be seen as essential to induct 12 ton transports sooner rather than waiting for the IMRH.

I'll say it again, the IMRH will be the perfect replacement for the IAF's Mi-17V5s along with those Mi-17 V5s belonging to the BSF, ITBP (set to get their own air wing shortly), Pawan Hans etc. The Indian market for the IMRH from 2030 onwards is easily in excess of 200 units (the IAF will have 200+ V5s itself needing to be replaced).

Additionally, whilst I am assuming (and hoping) lessons will be learnt from the ALH development, the fact is the ICG and IN will require navalised helos and one can only assume it will take that bit longer to certify the IMRH for that role.

200+ H225M made in India by Mahindra for the short term and 300+ IMRH made by HAL in the long term is BY FAR the most optimal solution to cover the needs of the users and for the benefit of Indian industry (both private and public). This deal would allow Mahindra aerospace to establish itself as a defence giant in its own right just as TASL is trying to do with the C-295 (and potentially fighter line), for that to happen they require something like the H225M deal being awarded to them. It's a win win all round.


@PARIKRAMA @Taygibay @MilSpec @nair @Nilgiri @Span @Echo_419 @Koovie @Kinetic @Vergennes @Levina @danish_vij @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @SpArK @scorpionx @Stephen Cohen

 

[Ankit Kumar]

The reason why? Time, or rather the lack of.

The ICG, IN and to an extent the IAF (only in for most specilised roles, not as a general replacement for the Mi-17 V5) have an outstanding requirement for these 12 ton MRH that has been unfulfileld for years, they can't wait another decade for such birds. There is no need to go the KAI Surion JV route, HAL has enough expertise in-house to develop their own products and are evolving at admiral pace to deliver an ever expanding portfolio with added complexity at every stage. By the end of this decade (when the LCH, ALH, LUH etc are in service in good numbers) they will have ample capacity to work on the IMRH, but not today.

Furthermore, depending on how the IA's aviation brigades are developed in the next decade, it may be seen as essential to induct 12 ton transports sooner rather than waiting for the IMRH.

I'll say it again, the IMRH will be the perfect replacement for the IAF's Mi-17V5s along with those Mi-17 V5s belonging to the BSF, ITBP (set to get their own air wing shortly), Pawan Hans etc. The Indian market for the IMRH from 2030 onwards is easily in excess of 200 units (the IAF will have 200+ V5s itself needing to be replaced).

Additionally, whilst I am assuming (and hoping) lessons will be learnt from the ALH development, the fact is the ICG and IN will require navalised helos and one can only assume it will take that bit longer to certify the IMRH for that role.

200+ H225M made in India by Mahindra for the short term and 300+ IMRH made by HAL in the long term is BY FAR the most optimal solution to cover the needs of the users and for the benefit of Indian industry (both private and public). This deal would allow Mahindra aerospace to establish itself as a defence giant in its own right just as TASL is trying to do with the C-295 (and potentially fighter line), for that to happen they require something like the H225M deal being awarded to them. It's a win win all round.


@PARIKRAMA @Taygibay @MilSpec @nair @Nilgiri @Span @Echo_419 @Koovie @Kinetic @Vergennes @Levina @danish_vij @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @SpArK @scorpionx @Stephen Cohen

The delay which may happen due to JV is your concern , isn't it ?

Well according to me if today MoD decides upon the requirements of 4 wings for 12 ton helicopter and decides EC725 as the suitable platform and Eurocopter forms a JV with Mahindra and HAL , all the time which will be required , will be only for setting up the manufacturing unit.

The JV here in simple words is about renaming the basic platform and giving it updates for its operations in Sub Continent , this won't take time , there is no R&D involved.... its in simple terms just TOT with the right to name it an Indian system as a result of JV.

The BENEFITS are huge for our industry , following this 10 years down the line when we start looking for a Indian Medium helicopter program we will have more than enough capability to do it.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The delay which may happen due to JV is your concern , isn't it ?

Well according to me if today MoD decides upon the requirements of 4 wings for 12 ton helicopter and decides EC725 as the suitable platform and Eurocopter forms a JV with Mahindra and HAL , all the time which will be required , will be only for setting up the manufacturing unit.

The JV here in simple words is about renaming the basic platform and giving it updates for its operations in Sub Continent , this won't take time , there is no R&D involved.... its in simple terms just TOT with the right to name it an Indian system as a result of JV.

The BENEFITS are huge for our industry , following this 10 years down the line when we start looking for a Indian Medium helicopter program we will have more than enough capability to do it.

I'm just not sure how much utility there is in forming a JV along the lines of the EC-KAI JV to modify the H225M for Indian needs. As it stands, the H225M has been trailed by the ICG and found to be up to their spec and I'm sure the IN and IAF will conclude the same.

There will be equally huge benefits to Indian industry by allowing the Airbus-Mahindra JV to produce the H225M in India, with the numbers the ICG, IN, IAF and IA require of this type India will own the largest Airbus military production line outside of France and will be in a position to service export orders not to mention produce through life support to multiple fleets in Asia and beyond. Mahindra Aerospace could become a global aerospace giant with this move quite easily.

The JV route to modify the H225M by potentially bringing in HAL could be rather tricky and would certainly be needlessly complex, time consuming and resource draining.

Why not produce the H225M as is in India and allow HAL to devout all of their attention to their IMRH?

@Abingdonboy Thanks for the tag.

These babies are purely your domain, I am merely a spectator!!!! Great posts as usual and thanks to @fsayed and @Agent_47 for interesting inputs.

There is no clarity yet on Indian Army's requirement of heli class for its proposed aviation brigades. As of now, Mi-17V5s are all we have invested in for our Heliborne Ops role with support of ALH. Diversification is a good idea, but not for the armed forces IMO.

There is a need for commonality of platform at least between the three services in order to augment the efforts for the proposed marine forces which shall help in minimising the logistic chain in support of an amphibious operation within the Indian Ocean littoral.

With the interesting developments that we are seeing in South East Asia post UNCLOS ruling against Chiina, the need to bolster the now cold stored proposal for dedicated marine forces will gather pace. In such a scenario, better sense requires a commonality.

Awaiting your inputs gentlemen and ladies if any.

Having the IA, IN and ICG operate the H225M will offer vast commonality clearly, the IAF will be the largest operator of the IMRH from 2030 onwards but given that it largely confines itself to the Indian mainland for operations that shouldn't be an issue. The forces that are most likely going to operate 12 ton helos for expeditonary missions are the IN and IA and they should/would have a common platform....the H225M.


Clearly, in an ideal world all Indian forces requring a 12 ton transport helo would get the IMRH but the timelines involved in developing that platform (10+ years starting 2019/2020) preclude the option of simply waiting for the type. From a pragmatic perspective it makes sense to get the H225M to cover the immediate and intermediate needs whilst the IMRH can come to serve the forces in the medium to long term.

 

[MilSpec]

Just wondering why CG would need a medium lift system?

The reason why? Time, or rather the lack of.

The ICG, IN and to an extent the IAF (only in the most specilised roles, not as a general replacement for the Mi-17 V5) have an outstanding requirement for these 12 ton MRH that has been unfulfileld for years, they can't wait another decade for such birds. There is no need to go the KAI Surion JV route, HAL has enough expertise in-house to develop their own products and are evolving at admiral pace to deliver an ever expanding portfolio with added complexity at every stage. By the end of this decade (when the LCH, ALH, LUH etc are in service in good numbers) they will have ample capacity to work on the IMRH, but not today.

Furthermore, depending on how the IA's aviation brigades are developed in the next decade, it may be seen as essential to induct 12 ton transports sooner rather than waiting for the IMRH.

I'll say it again, the IMRH will be the perfect replacement for the IAF's Mi-17V5s along with those Mi-17 V5s belonging to the BSF, ITBP (set to get their own air wing shortly), Pawan Hans etc. The Indian market for the IMRH from 2030 onwards is easily in excess of 200 units (the IAF will have 200+ V5s itself needing to be replaced).

Additionally, whilst I am assuming (and hoping) lessons will be learnt from the ALH development, the fact is the ICG and IN will require navalised helos and one can only assume it will take that bit longer to certify the IMRH for that role.

200+ H225M made in India by Mahindra for the short term and 300+ IMRH made by HAL in the long term is BY FAR the most optimal solution to cover the needs of the users and for the benefit of Indian industry (both private and public). This deal would allow Mahindra aerospace to establish itself as a defence giant in its own right just as TASL is trying to do with the C-295 (and potentially fighter line), for that to happen they require something like the H225M deal being awarded to them. It's a win win all round.


@PARIKRAMA @Taygibay @MilSpec @nair @Nilgiri @Span @Echo_419 @Koovie @Kinetic @Vergennes @Levina @danish_vij @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @SpArK @scorpionx @Stephen Cohen

 

[Ankit Kumar]

I'm just not sure how much utility there is in forming a JV along the linesstate he EC-KAI JV to modify the H225M for Indian needs. As it stands, the H225M has been trailed by the ICG and found to be up to their spec and I'm sure the IN and IAF will conclude the same.

There will be equally huge benefits to Indian industry by allowing the Airbus-Mahindra JV to produce the H225M in India, with the numbers the ICG, IN, IAF and IA require of this type India will own the largest Airbus military production line outside of France and will be in a position to service export orders not to mention produce through life support to multiple fleets in Asia and beyond. Mahindra Aerospace could become a global aerospace giant with this move quite easily.

The JV route to modify the H225M by potentially bringing in HAL could be rather tricky and would certainly be needlessly complex, time consuming and resource draining.

Why not produce the H225M as is in India and allow HAL to devout all of their attention to their IMRH?


Having the IA, IN and ICG operate the H225M will offer vast commonality clearly, the IAF will be the largest operator of the IMRH from 2030 onwards but given that it largely confines itself to the Indian mainland for operations that shouldn't be an issue. The forces that are most likely going to operate 12 ton helos for expeditonary missions are the IN and IA and they should/would have a common platform....the H225M.


Clearly, in an ideal world all Indian forces requring a 12 ton transport helo would get the IMRH but the timelines involved in developing that platform (10+ years starting 2019/2020) preclude the option of simply waiting for the type. From a pragmatic perspective it makes sense to get the H225M to cover the immediate and intermediate needs whilst the IMRH can come to serve the forces in the medium to long term.

I saw two benefits
1. If it was about TOT , bringing in HAL would have been better , HAL along with M&M would have built the system, and some time ahead in future started along with M&M our own MMRH.
Something similar to what DRDO along with Kalyani are doing in ATAGS project. Of course I am counting HAL here as efficient.

2. We would have got a system to " Boast About " , increasing the credibility of our aerospace industry....
Aah ok I accept that the second one is not that important.....

Just wondering why CG would need a medium lift system?

Range and endurance primarily ....?

More so as USCG operates helicopters in a similar fashion => light helicopter complemented by its heavier cousin , it surely should have some marked advantages.... ( I assume so...)
@Penguin