Featured Shallow Water Submarines - The case for Pakistan

[Armchair]

Radio waves do not travel underwater. Under water unmanned systems are far more complex and challanging to develop in comparison with that of air and ground based systems.

Please re-read my post. I have clearly indicated how this can operate without communication.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I believe this is quite simple - just like an underwater Harpy. Here is a simple scenario:

1. UUV is launched from near Karachi
2. UUV, without any communication, using an INS, reaches near an Indian port
3. UUV satcom antenna surfaces, confirms location (as simple as a GPS on a smartphone)
4. UUV releases mines and goes into attack mode on the enemy harbor.

The tech for this was available 20 years ago. This is now simply a situation like how the UK first discovered how to build submarines but didn't. Then one day Germany came along and changed naval war as we knew it, decades after the British invention.

Sounds all very good, and all very easy...only if it was. What if there is a malfunction? What if it turns around and mines your own harbour? Easier to talk Star Trek than to build a warp engine.

BTW, there are several conventions that cover sea mines. We cant talk about them as if we were discharging grey water overboard.

 

[Armchair]

Sounds all very good, and all very easy...only if it was. What if there is a malfunction? What if it turns around and mines your own harbour? Easier to talk Star Trek than to build a warp engine.

BTW, there are several conventions that cover sea mines. We cant talk about them as if we were discharging grey water overboard.

Everything is fair in love and war. Does the West ever follow any remotely human convention when they attack Muslim countries? No. Let's forget the moralizing and "international conventions" for a minute and see what is possible - exactly as they do when they napalm, torture, use depleted uranium, etc, etc.

2. Because it has to confirm location by matching its INS to GPS before engaging (see the engagement steps I outlined), clearly ensuring that the mad dogs we let loose don't bite us instead.

Does a white country have to do it before we dare to innovate and take the battle to the enemy?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Everything is fair in love and war. Does the West ever follow any remotely human convention when they attack Muslim countries? No. Let's forget the moralizing and "international conventions" for a minute and see what is possible - exactly as they do when they napalm, torture, use depleted uranium, etc, etc.

2. Because it has to confirm location by matching its INS to GPS before engaging (see the engagement steps I outlined), clearly ensuring that the mad dogs we let loose don't bite us instead.

Does a white country have to do it before we dare to innovate and take the battle to the enemy?

Please start a UUV thread. Thank you.

 

[Zarvan]

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Well Pakistan could be the customer. First reason our midget Subs are way old now and needs replacing. Secondly Pakistan likes this much secrecy and thirdly our previous midget Subs are also Italian.

 

[Arsalan]

A few SWATS are more deadly than a boomer, which you can detect from miles away anyway. A SSK with the right delivery payload packs the same punch as expensive boomers. Boomers are for global power projection, and Pakistan has no such aims.

After the up-gradation of existing MG-110 Cosmos we are working on new SWATS platform. The one that was shown under construction may very well be a new type.

 

[Tipu7]

Please re-read my post. I have clearly indicated how this can operate without communication.

Oh yes, I missed the point.
Indeed the idea you are suggesting is workable.

After the up-gradation of existing MG-110 Cosmos we are working on new SWATS platform. The one that was shown under construction may very well be a new type.

Or may be it's a simulator/training vessel?

After the up-gradation of existing MG-110 Cosmos

Aren't we retiring them?

 

[Arsalan]

Oh yes, I missed the point.
Indeed the idea you are suggesting is workable.


Or may be it's a simulator/training vessel?


Aren't we retiring them?

Not until we get the replacements. That is why i was saying that perhaps the one that was "leaked" is a new system.
The problem with these midget submarines is that so little is known about that program. Nothing can be said with certainty.

 

[Armchair]

The small sub program has a number of components:

1. A SOF insertion capability (already taken care of)
2. A2D, defending shallow waters as @Bilal Khan 777 has outlined (requirement still there)
3. Mining of areas near enemy ports and SLOCs.

The wider SLOC can be taken care of by the larger submarines. There is a possiblity of a simple 700 ton submarine that can mine areas just outside India's Eastern ports. This would be a simple construction, as all the submarine needs to do is putter to a location, unload mines, and come back.

I think keeping it simple may be the best way forward. 2xtorpedoes and 8x mines may be a good combination.

However, the shallow water wild cards are an equally fascinating prospect. I feel Bilal Khan is right and Pak could make good use of this. I feel it should be an indigenous development, perhaps 500 - 700 tons, and some kind of Lithium-ion batteries can perhaps be used, and if possible a simple AIP system. This would be a challenge for Pakistani submariners but if the will is there, Pak can do anything she puts her mind to.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

The small sub program has a number of components:

1. A SOF insertion capability (already taken care of)
2. A2D, defending shallow waters as @Bilal Khan 777 has outlined (requirement still there)
3. Mining of areas near enemy ports and SLOCs.

The wider SLOC can be taken care of by the larger submarines. There is a possiblity of a simple 700 ton submarine that can mine areas just outside India's Eastern ports. This would be a simple construction, as all the submarine needs to do is putter to a location, unload mines, and come back.

I think keeping it simple may be the best way forward. 2xtorpedoes and 8x mines may be a good combination.

However, the shallow water wild cards are an equally fascinating prospect. I feel Bilal Khan is right and Pak could make good use of this. I feel it should be an indigenous development, perhaps 500 - 700 tons, and some kind of Lithium-ion batteries can perhaps be used, and if possible a simple AIP system. This would be a challenge for Pakistani submariners but if the will is there, Pak can do anything she puts her mind to.

I agree. But indigenous development could take a long time. PN may consider acquiring the technology is available from somewhere. This program looks like it will remain a dream only.

 

[Armchair]

I agree. But indigenous development could take a long time. PN may consider acquiring the technology is available from somewhere. This program looks like it will remain a dream only.

Get someone like the JF-17 Lateef and it will be done in 2 years tops. Heck, I would work day and night for free to make it happen. Just needs unity, faith and discipline.

 

[Armchair]

Lithium-ion Batteries (LIB): Opportunities and Threats




Over the last two decades, LIB technology has been used in the defense sector for underwater applications such as conventional submarines, special force delivery vehicles, UUVs, and torpedoes. Despite wide use in a variety of applications, lithium-ion batteries can be described as a relatively immature energy storage technology. The Li-ion battery technology has improved recently, and has become a real emerging technology across a wide range of civil and defense applications.

Listed below are the key opportunities and threats of lithium-ion batteries for underwater opportunities, as identified by GlobalData.
A potential replacement for lead-acid batteries
LIBs are a potential replacement for lead-acid batteries as the main source of electrical power for submarines. Compared to lead-acid batteries, LIBs offer superior energy density, improved charge, and discharge dynamics and better overall operational life, typically lasting more than twice as long as lead-acid batteries.

All diesel-powered submarines use batteries to travel silently underwater. The batteries are charged by the diesel engine, which needs oxygen to run. This requires the submarine to surface, or at least snorkel, which exposes the periscope, an air intake, and an exhaust port above the surface of the water. With a LIB, the submarine can stay underwater much longer than with a lead-acid battery. The energy stored in the entire battery block could supply a small town for hours.

The LIBs are designed so that they can be installed in any submarine with slight technical adaptations and thus directly replace the lead-acid battery.

LIB safety regulations
In terms of fire risk, LIBs are currently encountering serious fire safety concerns in a variety of industries, including the consumer electronics, automotive, aviation, and marine sectors.

The International Air Transport Association released the first edition of an operator’s guidance document for mitigating the risk associated with lithium batteries, which came into effect in 2015. Similarly, the US Navy released its Lithium Battery Systems Navy Platform Integration Safety Manual in mid-2011 and continues to research improved safety for LIBs.

New battery technologies
Current LIBs rely on two essential metals – cobalt and nickel – that harm the people who mine them, as well as the environment. IBM has recently developed a new type of battery that’s free of cobalt, nickel, and other heavy metals, avoiding the environmental and humanitarian issues related to lithium-ion technology.

When optimised for performance, the battery has a higher power density than lithium-ion, meaning potentially smaller batteries that could be transformative for technology like electric aircraft.

In addition, the new battery independently developed by Tesla is a combination of dry battery technology and a supercapacitor. The combination of these two technologies has the potential to increase energy density, and hence driving range, as well as increase charging speed.

There are studies for developing solid-state battery technology. Today’s best-in-class LIB cells contain a liquid electrolyte. Solid-state batteries, which include a solid electrolyte instead of a liquid one, have the potential to achieve a higher energy density. In combination with the new battery pack and battery module developments, the endurance of battery could significantly be extended.

Saft R&D is working on developing solid-state battery technology. It is focusing on two main material types: polymers and inorganic compounds, aiming at the synergy of physicochemical properties such as processability, stability, and conductivity.

Although these developments pose threats to lithium-ion battery technology, it doesn’t mean that LIB will be replaced in the near future. For instance, after developing diesel-electric submarines fitted lead-acid batteries, nuclear, fuel cell, and LIB powered submarines have been developed, but submarines fitted with lead-acid battery have kept their important place in the global submarine market.

This is an edited extract from the Lithium-ion Batteries for Underwater Applications – Thematic Research report produced by GlobalData Thematic Research.

https://www.naval-technology.com/comment/lithium-ion-batteries-lib/

XXXXXXXX

Because with the lead-acid battery that was previously used, submarines have to stay on the surface of the water for a long time in order to charge the batteries with the diesel engine. In addition, the lead-acid battery loses power over time and must be charged more frequently as the service life increases. This is not the only reason why changing battery systems is a small revolution:

“For the tactical capabilities of the boat, the battery offers a whole range of possibilities. The submarine has more energy, can stay under water longer, can drive at top speed longer and needs shorter charging times,” says the engineer. In addition, the lithium-ion battery is literally maintenance-free.

When do submarines use the new lithium-ion battery system as standard?
The use of lithium-ion batteries in submarines – a revolution in the market: “We would then be the first in the western hemisphere to bring this new technology to market.” Until then, the final tests and minor corrections will have to be completed. The goal for those involved in the project is clear: “In one year we want to complete the final tests and the development of the battery. Then it should be ready for installation.”

The lithium-ion batteries are designed so that they can be installed in any submarine with slight technical adaptations and thus directly replace the lead-acid battery. After the new battery has passed the type test, the next step is the contract with a customer to finally install the system onboard and benefit from its advantages.

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https://engineered.thyssenkrupp.com...hium-ion-battery-system-for-more-performance/

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Lithium-ion Batteries (LIB): Opportunities and Threats




Over the last two decades, LIB technology has been used in the defense sector for underwater applications such as conventional submarines, special force delivery vehicles, UUVs, and torpedoes. Despite wide use in a variety of applications, lithium-ion batteries can be described as a relatively immature energy storage technology. The Li-ion battery technology has improved recently, and has become a real emerging technology across a wide range of civil and defense applications.

Listed below are the key opportunities and threats of lithium-ion batteries for underwater opportunities, as identified by GlobalData.
A potential replacement for lead-acid batteries
LIBs are a potential replacement for lead-acid batteries as the main source of electrical power for submarines. Compared to lead-acid batteries, LIBs offer superior energy density, improved charge, and discharge dynamics and better overall operational life, typically lasting more than twice as long as lead-acid batteries.

All diesel-powered submarines use batteries to travel silently underwater. The batteries are charged by the diesel engine, which needs oxygen to run. This requires the submarine to surface, or at least snorkel, which exposes the periscope, an air intake, and an exhaust port above the surface of the water. With a LIB, the submarine can stay underwater much longer than with a lead-acid battery. The energy stored in the entire battery block could supply a small town for hours.

The LIBs are designed so that they can be installed in any submarine with slight technical adaptations and thus directly replace the lead-acid battery.

LIB safety regulations
In terms of fire risk, LIBs are currently encountering serious fire safety concerns in a variety of industries, including the consumer electronics, automotive, aviation, and marine sectors.

The International Air Transport Association released the first edition of an operator’s guidance document for mitigating the risk associated with lithium batteries, which came into effect in 2015. Similarly, the US Navy released its Lithium Battery Systems Navy Platform Integration Safety Manual in mid-2011 and continues to research improved safety for LIBs.

New battery technologies
Current LIBs rely on two essential metals – cobalt and nickel – that harm the people who mine them, as well as the environment. IBM has recently developed a new type of battery that’s free of cobalt, nickel, and other heavy metals, avoiding the environmental and humanitarian issues related to lithium-ion technology.

When optimised for performance, the battery has a higher power density than lithium-ion, meaning potentially smaller batteries that could be transformative for technology like electric aircraft.

In addition, the new battery independently developed by Tesla is a combination of dry battery technology and a supercapacitor. The combination of these two technologies has the potential to increase energy density, and hence driving range, as well as increase charging speed.

There are studies for developing solid-state battery technology. Today’s best-in-class LIB cells contain a liquid electrolyte. Solid-state batteries, which include a solid electrolyte instead of a liquid one, have the potential to achieve a higher energy density. In combination with the new battery pack and battery module developments, the endurance of battery could significantly be extended.

Saft R&D is working on developing solid-state battery technology. It is focusing on two main material types: polymers and inorganic compounds, aiming at the synergy of physicochemical properties such as processability, stability, and conductivity.

Although these developments pose threats to lithium-ion battery technology, it doesn’t mean that LIB will be replaced in the near future. For instance, after developing diesel-electric submarines fitted lead-acid batteries, nuclear, fuel cell, and LIB powered submarines have been developed, but submarines fitted with lead-acid battery have kept their important place in the global submarine market.

This is an edited extract from the Lithium-ion Batteries for Underwater Applications – Thematic Research report produced by GlobalData Thematic Research.

https://www.naval-technology.com/comment/lithium-ion-batteries-lib/

XXXXXXXX

Because with the lead-acid battery that was previously used, submarines have to stay on the surface of the water for a long time in order to charge the batteries with the diesel engine. In addition, the lead-acid battery loses power over time and must be charged more frequently as the service life increases. This is not the only reason why changing battery systems is a small revolution:

“For the tactical capabilities of the boat, the battery offers a whole range of possibilities. The submarine has more energy, can stay under water longer, can drive at top speed longer and needs shorter charging times,” says the engineer. In addition, the lithium-ion battery is literally maintenance-free.

When do submarines use the new lithium-ion battery system as standard?
The use of lithium-ion batteries in submarines – a revolution in the market: “We would then be the first in the western hemisphere to bring this new technology to market.” Until then, the final tests and minor corrections will have to be completed. The goal for those involved in the project is clear: “In one year we want to complete the final tests and the development of the battery. Then it should be ready for installation.”

The lithium-ion batteries are designed so that they can be installed in any submarine with slight technical adaptations and thus directly replace the lead-acid battery. After the new battery has passed the type test, the next step is the contract with a customer to finally install the system onboard and benefit from its advantages.

0
Comments
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Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Comment

https://engineered.thyssenkrupp.com...hium-ion-battery-system-for-more-performance/

With the high speed progress new solid state batteries (Li Ion just being one fo the technologies), the submarines of the future will have lot more power density per sqm than ever available before. This means much higher indiscretion rate. The conventional and swats of the future, 500-2000 tons, will be a real force to reckon with.

 

[Armchair]

With the high speed progress new solid state batteries (Li Ion just being one fo the technologies), the submarines of the future will have lot more power density per sqm than ever available before. This means much higher indiscretion rate. The conventional and swats of the future, 500-2000 tons, will be a real force to reckon with.

Precisely. Meaning even without AIP, a small submarine would be able to essentially fulfill the SWAT role you have envisioned. Prices have dramatically fallen for such batteries, and production has skyrocketed thanks to Elon Musk. Japan already using them. This is even better and easier for a smaller submarine as heat dissipation is less of a worry.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Precisely. Meaning even without AIP, a small submarine would be able to essentially fulfill the SWAT role you have envisioned. Prices have dramatically fallen for such batteries, and production has skyrocketed thanks to Elon Musk. Japan already using them. This is even better and easier for a smaller submarine as heat dissipation is less of a worry.

The best place for solid state batteries is outside the pressure hull of the submarine, in sealed containers, like what has been practiced on deep submergence vehicles for decades.

While prices may seem to be falling for everything, marinating and military marine is never cheap, lets alone submarine, as it has to account for many factors not applicable to land civil.