Featured Shallow Water Submarines - The case for Pakistan

[Dreamer.]

Nuclear Power Submarines or Aircraft Carriers or Jet Fighters for PN are simply nonviable. But yes in a few years PN will have the required BITE underwater, on water and in Air as well.

First two, I can understand, but no.3 i.e. jet fighters I could never understand. Shouldn't be very hard that.

 

[Tipu7]

A few SWATS are more deadly than a boomer, which you can detect from miles away anyway. A SSK with the right delivery payload packs the same punch as expensive boomers. Boomers are for global power projection, and Pakistan has no such aims.

Well Sir these are vastly different from each other. And SSBN are less oriented towards power projection and more towards establishment of credible nuclear deterrent. Though both concepts have overlapping relationship, but power projection options are meant for coercion as well as for war fighting.

There are numerous nations which do not have 'Global ambitions' but maintain SSBN fleet as its the safest and most efficient leg of nuclear triad.

The approach Pakistan is following for sea based nuclear deterrent is essentially a stop gap measure till capacity will develop for raising a true capability.

SSKs cannot match SSBNs due to inherent limitations.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

A few SWATS are more deadly than a boomer, which you can detect from miles away anyway. A SSK with the right delivery payload packs the same punch as expensive boomers. Boomers are for global power projection, and Pakistan has no such aims.

So, would it be wrong to say a good SWAT submarine costs less than a good 1,000+ ton SSK/SSP? From what I understand, the industry class SWATs are compact and effective due to excellent design work, materials, etc. So, SWATs aren't necessarily a way to build submarine numbers at a lower cost (...I'm not sure, just asking).

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

So, would it be wrong to say a good SWAT submarine costs less than a good 1,000+ ton SSK/SSP? From what I understand, the industry class SWATs are compact and effective due to excellent design work, materials, etc. So, SWATs aren't necessarily a way to build submarine numbers at a lower cost (...I'm not sure, just asking).

It's a general understanding. I don't know what a submarine price is on the market.

 

[Dazzler]

In a few years PN will emerge as a regional powerhouse of force projection thanks to the vision, consistency and continuity of projects for the last three service chiefs and the literal all wheel drive of CNS Abbasi. It is so exciting to see PN coming out of its cocoon to spread its modern wings. Stay tuned

Sandela,Zaka and Abbasi are indeed visionary leaders.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Naval development is inevitable. There will be no diesel for PA tanks, or jet fuel for PAF A/C if there was no Navy protecting the SLOC. Yet there are simpletons who say Navy is not required.

... And that is why Completion of Iran-Pakistan pipeline is important, atleast maintain minimum amount of oil flow to keep the military rolling Incase Of SLOC blockade.

I concur.....the PN is going forward, very strongly and will be unrecognisable in a decade or two.

Pakistan Navy is in reactive mode, trying to patch up massive gaps after rapid and continued up-gradation of IN, courtesy and guidance from Uncle Sam.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Well Sir these are vastly different from each other. And SSBN are less oriented towards power projection and more towards establishment of credible nuclear deterrent. Though both concepts have overlapping relationship, but power projection options are meant for coercion as well as for war fighting.

There are numerous nations which do not have 'Global ambitions' but maintain SSBN fleet as its the safest and most efficient leg of nuclear triad.

The approach Pakistan is following for sea based nuclear deterrent is essentially a stop gap measure till capacity will develop for raising a true capability.

SSKs cannot match SSBNs due to inherent limitations.

Exactly, kon Samjaee in ko.

Pakistan needs to approach SSNB like it didn’t it’s Nuclear program. Nukes are useless sitting duck without delivery and survivability mechanisms.

It would be naive of Naval and every other quarter of Pakistani Leadership to already not working on SSNB.

Infact considering the geopolitical Unstability and arm twisting of Pakistan in last two decades, it’s would be Criminally stupid to be fooled by Fancy word game of world politics.

Technology has evolved in last 7 decades. It’s cheaper, smaller and safer. Specially when you are engineering everything at home.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Exactly, kon Samjaee in ko.

Pakistan needs to approach SSNB like it didn’t it’s Nuclear program. Nukes are useless sitting duck without delivery and survivability mechanisms.

It would be naive of Naval and every other quarter of Pakistani Leadership to already not working on SSNB.

Infact considering the geopolitical Unstability and arm twisting of Pakistan in last two decades, it’s would be Criminally stupid to be fooled by Fancy word game of world politics.

Technology has evolved in last 7 decades. It’s cheaper, smaller and safer. Specially when you are engineering everything at home.

This was a Shallow Water Sub discussion....however, Boomer would be a great capability to have for PN. But then, you can't have one, you need 2 or 3, and with a couple of Billion USD each, where do you find the budget to buy and maintain them? Imagine as Hostilities break, the whole Axis of Non-Evil trying to search and hunt the Pakistani boomers. Aren't we better off digging into the mountains? I digress, lets stick to the thread gents.

 

[Genghis khan1]

This was a Shallow Water Sub discussion....however, Boomer would be a great capability to have for PN. But then, you can't have one, you need 2 or 3, and with a couple of Billion USD each, where do you find the budget to buy and maintain them? Imagine as Hostilities break, the whole Axis of Non-Evil trying to search and hunt the Pakistani boomers. Aren't we better off digging into the mountains? I digress, lets stick to the thread gents.

Back to shallow water subs, what guarantee do we have that your coastal line isn’t rigged with sensors. Your well resources adversary and “Axis of not so evil”, Isn’t already keeping tabs on PN new limited range Subs. How hard is to integrate 1000 km shoreline, add sea floor data, location of Sub base, plus sensor data into computer system and run statically analysis based algorithms to figure out every movement and predict possibly routes.

If it’s in mountains, it can be located and destroyed. If money is the issue than nations of 200 millions, with GDP of $300 billion has to do some soul searching.

No one is expecting Navy to produce $5 Subs in a single year..

 

[Genghis khan1]

Investing in SSNB not only Guarantees survival, it also pays Geopolitical dividends through its life. Perception is reality.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Back to shallow water subs, what guarantee do we have that your coastal line isn’t rigged with sensors. Your well resources adversary and “Axis of not so evil”, Isn’t already keeping tabs on PN new limited range Subs. How hard is to integrate 1000 km shoreline, add sea floor data, location of Sub base, plus sensor data into computer system and run statically analysis based algorithms to figure out every movement and predict possibly routes.

If it’s in mountains, it can be located and destroyed. If money is the issue than nations of 200 millions, with GDP of $300 billion has to do some soul searching.

No one is expecting Navy to produce $5 Subs in a single year..

Anything is possible. We can only think about whats possible.

 

[ali_raza]

Anything is possible. We can only think about whats possible.

wht about uuv simple ones with 2-4 torpedoes or mines
and themselves loaded with explosives
mae em kamikazi drones

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

wht about uuv simple ones with 2-4 torpedoes or mines
and themselves loaded with explosives
mae em kamikazi drones

Every navy's dream right now, but not so simple...as the technology still alludes us.

 

[Armchair]

wht about uuv simple ones with 2-4 torpedoes or mines
and themselves loaded with explosives
mae em kamikazi drones

I believe this is quite simple - just like an underwater Harpy. Here is a simple scenario:

1. UUV is launched from near Karachi
2. UUV, without any communication, using an INS, reaches near an Indian port
3. UUV satcom antenna surfaces, confirms location (as simple as a GPS on a smartphone)
4. UUV releases mines and goes into attack mode on the enemy harbor.

The tech for this was available 20 years ago. This is now simply a situation like how the UK first discovered how to build submarines but didn't. Then one day Germany came along and changed naval war as we knew it, decades after the British invention.

 

[Tipu7]

Radio waves do not travel underwater. Under water unmanned systems are far more complex and challanging to develop in comparison with that of air and ground based systems.

I believe this is quite simple - just like an underwater Harpy. Here is a simple scenario:

1. UUV is launched from near Karachi
2. UUV, without any communication, using an INS, reaches near an Indian port
3. UUV satcom antenna surfaces, confirms location (as simple as a GPS on a smartphone)
4. UUV releases mines and goes into attack mode on the enemy harbor.

The tech for this was available 20 years ago. This is now simply a situation like how the UK first discovered how to build submarines but didn't. Then one day Germany came along and changed naval war as we knew it, decades after the British invention.