Featured Shallow Water Submarines - The case for Pakistan

[YeBeWarned]

Yes Sir, indeed it's a fishing boat.

All i see is a big sign for No Smoking
@Bilal Khan 777 good to see you around

my question, if you take these Midget Subs into open seas, will they be harder to detect because of their smaller size ? or under water Radar/Sonar works different than open air radars ?

 

[Rafi]

The PN has especially won respect in the Army, and that reason is the NSFC. PAF had with it's close air support in the anti insurgency war had already done so.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Just asking in theoretical terms, but would it be prudent for the PN to also have a handful of sub-200-ton miniature submarines for SOF ops? Or would a 500-600-ton compact SSK be enough for that role (and more)? Is there a disadvantage to using a 500-600-ton SSK vs. a 160-ton design? @Bilal Khan 777

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

All i see is a big sign for No Smoking
@Bilal Khan 777 good to see you around

my question, if you take these Midget Subs into open seas, will they be harder to detect because of their smaller size ? or under water Radar/Sonar works different than open air radars ?

Midget subs at open sea would first have a depth limitation. They max depth is usually much less than conventional submarines. Submarines analyse sound propagation situation underwater, and use it to their advantage. Sound behaves differently in water than radar does in air. However, regardless of depth or echo size (albeit small), the advantage is immediately nullified by use of variable depth sonar, dipping sonar, Submarine active, or active sonobuoys. If the midget was under the thermocline, and an active sonar was there too, it would be detected, and at longer ranges.

Hence, the case of small submarines remains for its operation in shallow waters, where others cant operate so freely, sonar is deeply affected and the sub is at an operational advantage or has element of surprise on its side.

The PN has especially won respect in the Army, and that reason is the NSFC. PAF had with it's close air support in the anti insurgency war had already done so.

Naval development is inevitable. There will be no diesel for PA tanks, or jet fuel for PAF A/C if there was no Navy protecting the SLOC. Yet there are simpletons who say Navy is not required.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Midget subs at open sea would first have a depth limitation. They max depth is usually much less than conventional submarines. Submarines analyse sound propagation situation underwater, and use it to their advantage. Sound behaves differently in water than radar does in air. However, regardless of depth or echo size (albeit small), the advantage is immediately nullified by use of variable depth sonar, dipping sonar, Submarine active, or active sonobuoys. If the midget was under the thermocline, and an active sonar was there too, it would be detected, and at longer ranges.

Hence, the case of small submarines remains for its operation in shallow waters, where others cant operate so freely, sonar is deeply affected and the sub is at an operational advantage or has element of surprise on its side.



Naval development is inevitable. There will be no diesel for PA tanks, or jet fuel for PAF A/C if there was no Navy protecting the SLOC. Yet there are simpletons who say Navy is not required.

can you in laymen terms explain will warship be able to come closer to shallower water ? didn't large size warships has that disadvantage to keep into deep sea ?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Just asking in theoretical terms, but would it be prudent for the PN to also have a handful of sub-200-ton miniature submarines for SOF ops? Or would a 500-600-ton compact SSK be enough for that role (and more)? Is there a disadvantage to using a 500-600-ton SSK vs. a 160-ton design? @Bilal Khan 777

A handful of midgets would be really deadly, bit its about force culture. You cannot force traditional submariners to be comfortable in small submarines. Hence, a 600 ton compact SSK would be a multi-role platform that can do everything that a midget can do (including mining and SOF as a payload), and can do many things that a SSK would do (anti-shipping, swatch defence etc). The 160 or 200 ton submarine could have some disadvantages, such as overall range, indiscretion rate etc when compared to a compact sub. A 600 ton platform would be significantly lower price than a SSK, but substitute for its role without much smaller crew, sparing your SSK for offensive roles. A compact SSK like the fateh class would be a real game changer, and would ensure survival of all these White elephants such as Milgem and Type 54 which won't be able to defend themselves from enemy subs just itching to take a score.

can you in laymen terms explain will warship be able to come closer to shallower water ? didn't large size warships has that disadvantage to keep into deep sea ?

It can come close yes till it grounds itself. The point is that due to shallow water, the bow or keel mounted active sonar wont work as designed, nor will a dipping sonar from a helicopter due to many factors, hence a submarine platform in this scenario could interdict an otherwise highly capable platform with much ease.

 

[YeBeWarned]

It can come close yes till it grounds itself. The point is that due to shallow water, the bow or keel mounted active sonar wont work as designed, nor will a dipping sonar from a helicopter due to many factors, hence a submarine platform in this scenario could interdict an otherwise highly capable platform with much ease.

Thank you so much !!

 

[Rafi]

Just asking in theoretical terms, but would it be prudent for the PN to also have a handful of sub-200-ton miniature submarines for SOF ops? Or would a 500-600-ton compact SSK be enough for that role (and more)? Is there a disadvantage to using a 500-600-ton SSK vs. a 160-ton design? @Bilal Khan 777

We have that already at the SSG-N headquarters covered in tarps, that is for the Spec Ops.

 

[Zarvan]

The PN has especially won respect in the Army, and that reason is the NSFC. PAF had with it's close air support in the anti insurgency war had already done so.

What is NSFC ???

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

We have that already at the SSG-N headquarters covered in tarps, that is for the Spec Ops.

A fishing boat at best.

What is NSFC ???

The guarantee of your safety, and why Indians will never dare attack Pakistan...Our Second Strike Capability....Naval Strategic Forces Command.

 

[Genghis khan1]

In a few years PN will emerge as a regional powerhouse of force projection thanks to the vision, consistency and continuity of projects for the last three service chiefs and the literal all wheel drive of CNS Abbasi. It is so exciting to see PN coming out of its cocoon to spread its modern wings. Stay tuned

Bahi Jan koi , Nuclear powered Sub b a rahi hain ya, sirf naval Mahran per hi, Allah shafi Allah Kafi..?

In the 60's, Pakistan Navy ventured in the arena of asymmetric warfare, by ordering Midget submarines and swimmer delivery vehicles from Italy. These are generally known to be limited anti-shipping and mining platforms. Hence was the formation of Pakistan's frogmen branch, setup on the pattern of British SBS, but trained mostly by specialists trained by USN Seal Teams. The subject capability put IN on the defensive, as it's next to impossible to detect, and interdict. There were some successes and failures of the program but overall it served its purpose. IN even tried to acquire the same SDVs but could never operationally deploy them.

In the 90s, Pakistan upgraded the concept by acquiring larger midgets, with even more lethal capability. These "X-Craft" were mainly operated by the Frogmen, hence became the unique force in the world who were both crew and payload. Pakistani midgets or X-Craft gave India a tough time in many standoffs...After the decommissioning of Daphne Subs, the X-Craft were absorbed by the submarine force who operate them till today.

Now that these craft are up for replacement, while being fully operational but having completed their useful life, a great rethink of CONOPS and Doctrine is needed. Does Pakistan still need Midget submarines?

Meanwhile, great work is progressing in conventional submarines, where Pakistan is extending the life of existing platforms, and acquiring new ones. In a few years, Pakistan submarine force shall be 13 units, a formidable force to reckon with.

However, majority of our coast remains to be "Shallow Waters." That means, even conventional submarines cannot operate here, hence traditional submariners love to keep their keel clear of the bottom of all times.

So how do the midgets fit into the fray? The 100 ton craft have their pros and cons. Iran, out of desperation and compulsion, have undertaken both Midget and compact submarine programs. The midgets are derived from a Korean design, which in-turn is a copy of Italians. The compact submarine seems to be a purely indigenous design, and is progressing along. However after building the Ghadir class, Iran realized that they needed something bigger. The compact submarine, Fateh, is noteworthy, as it has almost the range of a conventional submarine, yet it can operate in shallow waters. This allows Iranian Navy to keep its Kilo class submarines in deeper water and on shore/fleet strike roles, and its compact submarine on defence / offense roles. This is a good lesson for all or any countries looking to narrow the shallow water gap.

As Pakistan Navy moves forward, they should think beyond the limited capability of 100-200 ton submarines, and think of a compact submarine platform, that is able to operate in shallow water, but has no limitation to operate in similar environment of a conventional submarine. This platform could be anywhere from 500 to 700 tons, and have suitable operational and technical capability for Spec Ops. If any such platform exists, it could be a superb force multiplier for PN, and fill the gap created by having only conventional platforms (if so in the future), that may be left by X-Craft when they are retired. I remain confident that Pakistan Navy and its leadership will make a wise and thought out decision as they move to narrow the shallow water gap in their underwater operations.

 

[PAR 5]

Bahi Jan koi , Nuclear powered Sub b a rahi hain ya, sirf naval Mahran per hi, Allah shafi Allah Kafi..?

Nuclear Power Submarines or Aircraft Carriers or Jet Fighters for PN are simply nonviable. But yes in a few years PN will have the required BITE underwater, on water and in Air as well.

Thanks. When is the Agosta MLU completing? How long will the Hangor project go?

First Agosta 90 has completed the MLU and currently under trials.

First Hangoor expected by 2023.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Nuclear Power Submarines or Aircraft Carriers or Jet Fighters for PN are simply nonviable. But yes in a few years PN will have the required BITE underwater, on water and in Air as well.

No nuclear powered jet fighter either .

Joke aside, if Pakistan wants to Increase its international leverage, clout, say. Nuclear powered Subs is a must. If Pakistan expects a big boy respect, it’s needs to make big boy decisions and wear big boy pants (PN Gotta work on the delivery system)

Big nuts are useless without big f**k stick.

 

[PAR 5]

No nuclear powered jet fighter either .

Joke aside, if Pakistan wants to Increase its international leverage, clout, say. Nuclear powered Subs is a must. If Pakistan expects a big boy respect, it’s needs to make big boy decisions and wear big boy pants (PN Gotta work on the delivery system)

Big nuts are useless without big f**k stick.

Nuclear Power Subs are superbly expensive to build and even more expensive to maintain. Pakistan does not have that economic clout

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Nuclear Power Subs are superbly expensive to build and even more expensive to maintain. Pakistan does not have that economic clout

A few SWATS are more deadly than a boomer, which you can detect from miles away anyway. A SSK with the right delivery payload packs the same punch as expensive boomers. Boomers are for global power projection, and Pakistan has no such aims.