Featured Shallow Water Submarines - The case for Pakistan

[S A L M A N.]

The Navy's recent initiatives and projects, such as the NRDI will serve as a game changer.
As we speak, routine day-to-day improvements/modifications are being made to equipment to offset the effects caused by lack of OEM support. This is obviously in addition to the original R&D work being carried out in diverse areas.
The best part is the large amount of civilian participation in all these R&D activities.
Consistency of leadership and a can-do attitude can do wonders for a resource constrained organization like the PN.
However, a lot more focus is required on training and recruiting the country's top minds and retaining their services by providing proper monetary compensation and other benefits - in short, make your engineers a part of the country's elite and they will literally do wonders.

 

[Armchair]

I looked at SMX-26 and I agree, SMX-26 or something in that category is the way to go.



Andrasta is a good design. We would need something similar, such as a SWATS which is a bit of both, or a truly synergistic platform to undertake submarine roles and midget roles in one platform.

It is a massively complex and expensive platform for its size. Has AIP. Will cost a leg and an arm. Why not just buy a proper submarine for a fraction of that price from the Chinese?

I think it would be far more meaningful to go with an indigenously built solution - that does the missions that I've outlined - you don't need a high end submarine with AIP to putter to near an Indian port, drop some mines and come back.

Andrasta is the perfect way to destroy local capacity to build anything (as all the money will be spent on a small number of expensive platforms that will then not be used for such a mission "because they are too valuable".

We need clear mission goals and we need to develop reasonably priced indigenous systems that can fulfill those goals.

To the gentlemen wanting Andrasta, please do outline the mission requirements that makes it the best and most financially efficient choice. Otherwise I could just write:

A moon base would be great for Pakistan if they can afford it.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Shallow waters means easy detection.

Look at the anti submarine capability india has amassed.
These small submarines will be sitting ducks.

In principle, a submarine is the most stealth craft that hides in the depths.

This is an outdated concept that does not fit the littorals. In Littoral waters, due to sound wave propagation, nothing is detectable in shallow water, while in deep water, VDS, Active Sonobuoy, and other means will render a submarine detectable immediately. Case in point, Indian subs detection in Pakistani waters recently. It is shallower waters that provide refuge, and only smaller platforms can operate in these areas.

SHALLOW WATER ATTACK SUBS for up to 700 tonnage project is already under process with NHQ for the last 3 years I also know the participants of it but cannot say more at this time.

انتظار فرمایے

Please enlighten the readers on who / what are the potential options.

 

[waz]

I am humbled by your praise as i am not worthy, as I learn a lot from you guys here. I believe Pakistan needs anywhere from 6-8 such platforms in the coming years.

You're humble bro. We learn from you i.e. it's an honour to have someone who has served in the PAF here. Anyway, welcome back. Hope you and the family are well.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Sir, you should discuss about the importance of these vessels in terms of capabilities they provide.
Like, what is meant by this

and this.

In simple words, how come a Midget pose major threat to Indian Navy? And how, despite being in shallow waters, they are so hard to detect?

I cannot say specifics till the midgets are in service, but any platform that is not detectable easily and can do multiple tasks is a real threat to Indian SLOCs.

Aside from smaller size/echo, shallower waters don't support acoustic propagation. Hence, passive sonar or active sonar does not work as efficiently as deeper waters. Hence smaller submarines in shallower waters can maraud without many adversaries. Remember that to submarines, surface ships are sitting ducks/targets.

 

[Armchair]

This is an outdated concept that does not fit the littorals. In Littoral waters, due to sound wave propagation, nothing is detectable in shallow water, while in deep water, VDS, Active Sonobuoy, and other means will render a submarine detectable immediately. Case in point, Indian subs detection in Pakistani waters recently. It is shallower waters that provide refuge, and only smaller platforms can operate in these areas.

Few problems with this argument:

1. Indian Sub was detected in deep waters not shallow waters.
2. If you look at an underwater map of the Indian Ocean, only a narrow strip of Pakistani coast is in shallow waters while just beyond Pakistani waters, Indian ocean is deep and relatively flat.
3. What purpose is there for having a highly expensive AIP equiped FRENCH submarine sitting in Pakistan's coastal shallow waters to catch a wayward Indian ship or submarine? There are far cheaper ways to detect and take out Indian vessels near Pak coast.
4. There is only a narrow path of shallow water to Indian Bhuj salient and beyond. This will be heavily sonobouyed and otherwise combed.
5. This solution does one thing most efficiently - drain Pakistan's resources on an expensive "good to have" while destroying Pakistan's financial ability to build indigenous small submarines and UUVs that can actually get the job done, put mines off India's ports and sea lanes, and create a robust, low cost, indigenous capability.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It is a massively complex and expensive platform for its size. Has AIP. Will cost a leg and an arm. Why not just buy a proper submarine for a fraction of that price from the Chinese?

I think it would be far more meaningful to go with an indigenously built solution - that does the missions that I've outlined - you don't need a high end submarine with AIP to putter to near an Indian port, drop some mines and come back.

Andrasta is the perfect way to destroy local capacity to build anything (as all the money will be spent on a small number of expensive platforms that will then not be used for such a mission "because they are too valuable".

We need clear mission goals and we need to develop reasonably priced indigenous systems that can fulfill those goals.

To the gentlemen wanting Andrasta, please do outline the mission requirements that makes it the best and most financially efficient choice. Otherwise I could just write:

A moon base would be great for Pakistan if they can afford it.

To be fair, I think the idea (posed by @SQ8 @Bilal Khan 777 et. al) is that the PN should pursue a design similar to the Andrasta. Realistically, we all know that the Andrasta itself isn't an option due to the French rallying in the Indian market.

Moreover, I don't think direct imports are an option because a compact SSK can be a regional game-changer (for all the reasons given by @Bilal Khan 777).

Defensively, it makes imposing control over Pakistani waters impossible (due to the presence of non-detectable anti-ship/sub threats).

Likewise, India would need to step up its ASW work along its own coasts (due to the risk of said submarines intruding using the adjacent offshore waters), freeing up space for our Hangor/Agosta SSPs.

 

[Armchair]

To be fair, I think the idea (posed by @SQ8 @Bilal Khan 777 et. al) is that the PN should pursue a design similar to the Andrasta. Realistically, we all know that the Andrasta itself isn't an option due to the French rallying in the Indian market.

Moreover, I don't think direct imports are an option because a compact SSK can be a regional game-changer (for all the reasons given by @Bilal Khan 777).

Defensively, it makes imposing control over Pakistani waters impossible (due to the presence of non-detectable anti-ship/sub threats).

Likewise, India would need to step up its ASW work along its own coasts (due to the risk of said submarines intruding using the adjacent offshore waters), freeing up space for our Hangor/Agosta SSPs.

Well, then it would be nothing like Andrasta as Pak doesn't have the technological capability to build it - but I do agree with @Bilal Khan 777 that Pak needs a 400 - 700 ton submarine. Andrasta is, at sail a 900 ton submarine. Its got AIP. A non-magnetic hull. It's like buying a BMW when we are shopping for (a design similar to) a Corolla...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Well, then it would be nothing like Andrasta as Pak doesn't have the technological capability to build it - but I do agree with @Bilal Khan 777 that Pak needs a 400 - 700 ton submarine. Andrasta is, at sail a 900 ton submarine. Its got AIP. A non-magnetic hull. It's like buying a BMW when we are shopping for (a design similar to) a Corolla...

Sure, but there's also the fact that the Andrasta can -- despite its smaller size (versus full-sized SSPs) -- bring AShW, ASW, ELINT, SOF, etc capabilities.

So, while the PN isn't able to indigenously get the marquee elements of the Andrasta, the core capability-set is probably doable via a mix of local design work + available foreign inputs (steel, the propulsion, etc) + some localization.

IMO the PN is the woke desi shopping for an Impreza or Golf, while his fellow desis are stuck thinking about Corollas and Civics

 

[Basel]

I looked at SMX-26 and I agree, SMX-26 or something in that category is the way to go.



Andrasta is a good design. We would need something similar, such as a SWATS which is a bit of both, or a truly synergistic platform to undertake submarine roles and midget roles in one platform.

How about compact submarine like Japanese "Soryu" or upcoming "29SS"?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/meet-29ss-japans-new-stealth-submarine-94991

To be fair, I think the idea (posed by @SQ8 @Bilal Khan 777 et. al) is that the PN should pursue a design similar to the Andrasta. Realistically, we all know that the Andrasta itself isn't an option due to the French rallying in the Indian market.

Moreover, I don't think direct imports are an option because a compact SSK can be a regional game-changer (for all the reasons given by @Bilal Khan 777).

Defensively, it makes imposing control over Pakistani waters impossible (due to the presence of non-detectable anti-ship/sub threats).

Likewise, India would need to step up its ASW work along its own coasts (due to the risk of said submarines intruding using the adjacent offshore waters), freeing up space for our Hangor/Agosta SSPs.

One thing should be noted that Pakistan is working with STM of Turkey and they may be able to provide solution to Pakistan with ToT.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Few problems with this argument:

1. Indian Sub was detected in deep waters not shallow waters.
2. If you look at an underwater map of the Indian Ocean, only a narrow strip of Pakistani coast is in shallow waters while just beyond Pakistani waters, Indian ocean is deep and relatively flat.
3. What purpose is there for having a highly expensive AIP equiped FRENCH submarine sitting in Pakistan's coastal shallow waters to catch a wayward Indian ship or submarine? There are far cheaper ways to detect and take out Indian vessels near Pak coast.
4. There is only a narrow path of shallow water to Indian Bhuj salient and beyond. This will be heavily sonobouyed and otherwise combed.
5. This solution does one thing most efficiently - drain Pakistan's resources on an expensive "good to have" while destroying Pakistan's financial ability to build indigenous small submarines and UUVs that can actually get the job done, put mines off India's ports and sea lanes, and create a robust, low cost, indigenous capability.

Your point 1., Indian sub was detected is exactly my point, hence the CONOPS of SWATS that you dont have to approach from deeper water and you stay in "narrow path" (not narrow at all) where conventional sonar fails to detect anything.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

The Navy's recent initiatives and projects, such as the NRDI will serve as a game changer.
As we speak, routine day-to-day improvements/modifications are being made to equipment to offset the effects caused by lack of OEM support. This is obviously in addition to the original R&D work being carried out in diverse areas.
The best part is the large amount of civilian participation in all these R&D activities.
Consistency of leadership and a can-do attitude can do wonders for a resource constrained organization like the PN.
However, a lot more focus is required on training and recruiting the country's top minds and retaining their services by providing proper monetary compensation and other benefits - in short, make your engineers a part of the country's elite and they will literally do wonders.

Good initiatives, but a lot more is required. Till there is consistent policy of build local and Make in Pak, we will have a lots of efforts wasted and decision makers giving in to OPS pressures.

 

[salarsikander]

Hi,

Very interesting thread indeed, Please allow me to share here a real-life story written by Rear Admiral Mian Zahir Shah its a book by PN publications

In 1992 we suffered a major mishap in one of ur midget submarine x craft, Our midget was sunk off the coast in Karachi with Allhumdulliah all 14 hand deck fully recovered, It took PN with meager resources about 45 days to recover the Sunk submarine get it repaired and then upgraded it with much more capacity for firepower. Hence the name of the book is Sea Phoenix. It was all done indigenously, no foreign assistance was sought since neither the budget or the honor demanded that it should be done locally.

The book is written with very intricate details of how it all happened, step by step, what caused the Mudget to sink and whatnot, and then who COMPAK, COMSUB Etc were involved in salvaging this platform. A must-read book fro those who are not familiar with this particular incident. For those of your who are in Pakistan, they can easily obtain the book from Local used book shops of Islamabad, and thse who are abroad can try their luck here https://www.abebooks.com/9789698318048/Sea-Phoenix-True-Submarine-Story-9698318046/plp

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Hi,

Very interesting thread indeed, Please allow me to share here a real-life story written by Rear Admiral Mian Zahir Shah its a book by PN publications

In 1992 we suffered a major mishap in one of ur midget submarine x craft, Our midget was sunk off the coast in Karachi with Allhumdulliah all 14 hand deck fully recovered, It took PN with meager resources about 45 days to recover the Sunk submarine get it repaired and then upgraded it with much more capacity for firepower. Hence the name of the book is Sea Phoenix. It was all done indigenously, no foreign assistance was sought since neither the budget or the honor demanded that it should be done locally.

The book is written with very intricate details of how it all happened, step by step, what caused the Mudget to sink and whatnot, and then who COMPAK, COMSUB Etc were involved in salvaging this platform. A must-read book fro those who are not familiar with this particular incident. For those of your who are in Pakistan, they can easily obtain the book from Local used book shops of Islamabad, and thse who are abroad can try their luck here https://www.abebooks.com/9789698318048/Sea-Phoenix-True-Submarine-Story-9698318046/plp

Its a noteworthy incident, where X-Craft was flooded while at sea due to incorrect use of trash ejector. The crew and the trainees, all trained commandoes, were able to bail out to the surface as the craft took on water and it reached their necks. Attempt to lighten the craft by jettisoning the ballast failed, as it was too little too late. The craft was later salvaged by by then Lt Cdr (Now Cdr retd) Tariq Muneeb of SSG(N), in a daring and indigenous salvage operation, the first of its kind in Pakistan. The book is an interesting read.

 

[salarsikander]

Its a noteworthy incident, where X-Craft was flooded while at sea due to incorrect use of trash ejector. The crew and the trainees, all trained commandoes, were able to bail out to the surface as the craft took on water and it reached their necks. Attempt to lighten the craft by jettisoning the ballast failed, as it was too little too late. The craft was later salvaged by by then Lt Cdr (Now Cdr retd) Tariq Muneeb of SSG(N), in a daring and indigenous salvage operation, the first of its kind in Pakistan. The book is an interesting read.

Indeed, The little trash ejector that caused all of this.