Shahed-136 - Tracking usage & expanding understanding.

[TheImmortal]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1675921873010319361

 

[TheImmortal]

Alleged Patriot Missile battery interception kills in Ukraine

I like to remind readers S-136 costs under $25K and a single Patriot missile costs $4M

So to intercept 5 S-136 (as claimed) Ukraine wasted at least $20M worth of missiles and as high as $40M.

 

[HGV]

So to intercept 5 S-136 (as claimed) Ukraine wasted at least $20M worth of missiles and as high as $40M.

They don't care, American taxpayers paid for it, not Ukrainians

That is a limitation of the asymmetry in cost of attack and defence: if the defender has a very rich backer it can still be economical. That is unfortunately also the case with Israel.

 

[Mehdipersian]

First russian made shahed 136?

White House says Iran is helping Russia build a drone factory east of Moscow for the war in Ukraine

WASHINGTON (AP) — Iran is providing Russia with materials to build a drone manufacturing plant east of Moscow as the Kremlin looks to lock in a steady supply of weaponry for its ongoing invasion of Ukraine, according to a U.S. intelligence finding released by the White House on Friday. National...

pdf.defence.pk

 

[mohsen]

Alleged Patriot Missile battery interception kills in Ukraine
View attachment 936731


I like to remind readers S-136 costs under $25K and a single Patriot missile costs $4M

So to intercept 5 S-136 (as claimed) Ukraine wasted at least $20M worth of missiles and as high as $40M.

Patriot can't target small and low flying drones. it's just a paint job by a fool!


------

Russia deploys 'Albatross' made in Iran-backed drone factory

Now every drone factory in Russia will be called Iranian!

 

[LeGenD]

Patriot can't target small and low flying drones. it's just a paint job by a fool!

It can.

A Patriot Missile Shot Down a Quadcopter in an Impressive But Wildly Expensive Shot

The shootdown highlights the lack of options in dealing with small drones.

www.popularmechanics.com

Ukraine has shot down a large number of Russian drones in the war, this is independently verified.

What makes you think that Ukraine is lying about its intercepts? Shahed-136 UAVs have been shot down in Ukraine and wreckage of some was shown on the web. Two examples provided below:

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/a-video-featuring-the-destruction-of-the-iranian-shahed-136-uav-in-dnipropetrovsk-region-appeared/

Iran drone shot down in Ukraine contained parts from 13 US companies, report says | The National

Companies in Canada, China, Switzerland and Japan also found to have made some of the 52 components in the Shahed-136 weapon

www.thenationalnews.com

You will have to wait for independent observers to compile information because Ukraine will not share radar data to silence forum boasters.

Ukraine has large geography and air defense systems are not present everywhere. Russians have used Shahed-136 UAVs in calculated ways to target Ukrainian civil infrastructure but Ukraine has fielded significant defenses in Kyiv since May to counter Russian attacks in this city.

 

[mohsen]

It can.

A Patriot Missile Shot Down a Quadcopter in an Impressive But Wildly Expensive Shot

The shootdown highlights the lack of options in dealing with small drones.

www.popularmechanics.com

Ukraine has shot down a large number of Russian drones in the war, this is independently verified.

What makes you think that Ukraine is lying about its intercepts? Shahed-136 UAVs have been shot down in Ukraine and wreckage of some was shown on the web. Two examples provided below:

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/a-video-featuring-the-destruction-of-the-iranian-shahed-136-uav-in-dnipropetrovsk-region-appeared/

Iran drone shot down in Ukraine contained parts from 13 US companies, report says | The National

Companies in Canada, China, Switzerland and Japan also found to have made some of the 52 components in the Shahed-136 weapon

www.thenationalnews.com

You will have to wait for independent observers to compile information because Ukraine will not share radar data to silence forum boasters.

Ukraine has large geography and air defense systems are not present everywhere. Russians have used Shahed-136 UAVs in calculated ways to target Ukrainian civil infrastructure but Ukraine has fielded significant defenses in Kyiv since May to counter Russian attacks in this city.

Yeah, in land of cheap propaganda "Ukraine" ordinary women can shoot Shahed136 down with a jar too!!!


Considering the minimum engagement range of air defense systems, I will laugh at any such claims about low flying drones. patriot struggles even against low RCS drones in high altitude, let alone a low flying one whose RCS can't be distinguished from birds or cars or wires or ...!


Drone infiltrates Israeli border with Syria, interception fails
Two Patriot missiles and a third air-to-air missile fail to intercept unidentified drone, which returned to Syrian territory


Or the more famous incident:

Opinion | Why U.S. Patriot missiles failed to stop the attack on Saudi oil sites

The U.S. is having trouble defending against low-flying drones and cruise missiles after years of the Pentagon focusing on longer-range threats.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[LeGenD]

Yeah, in land of cheap propaganda "Ukraine" ordinary women can shoot Shahed136 down with a jar too!!!


Considering the minimum engagement range of air defense systems, I will laugh at any such claims about low flying drones. patriot struggles even against low RCS drones in high altitude, let alone a low flying one whose RCS can't be distinguished from birds or cars or wires or ...!


Drone infiltrates Israeli border with Syria, interception fails
Two Patriot missiles and a third air-to-air missile fail to intercept unidentified drone, which returned to Syrian territory


Or the more famous incident:

Opinion | Why U.S. Patriot missiles failed to stop the attack on Saudi oil sites

The U.S. is having trouble defending against low-flying drones and cruise missiles after years of the Pentagon focusing on longer-range threats.

www.nbcnews.com

Patriot system has sufficient precision to engage a quadcopter, example provided in previous post.

A quadcopter is a very small drone and operates at very low altitudes. This drone is barely visible to radar systems.

Intercept happens within the Field-of-View (FOV) of the system. Patriot systems in the middle east are typically equipped with a single radar system that has 120° FOV. It is possible for a missile or UAV to operate outside this FOV. Solution is to link a Patriot system to different radar systems to achieve 360° FOV.

What you do is pick a negative news item to discredit the system. This is not how a system is evaluated. Most of the journalists do not understand this stuff on a technical level.

Ukrainian Patriot systems might have decent FOV. Ukrainians are also much better fighters than Arabs and others in the Middle East.

 

[TheImmortal]

A quadcopter is a very small drone and operates at very low altitudes. This drone is barely visible to radar systems.

Quadcopters are detected by international airports all the time. If they were ”barely visible to radar” then Al-Queda and other terrorist groups would have used Quadcopters by now to harass airports all around the world with a high success rate.

For patriot targeting radar to get a kill on a quadcopter it needs to be positioned very close to the target and illuminating the proper azimuth angle of airspace without the obstruction of curvature of the earth. Or else you get a Saudi Armaco situation where all radars failed to detect the objects despite illuminating the entire Persian Gulf facing Iran.

So yes it is quite possible, however is it likely a patriot radar battery will be positioned so close to where a quadcopter or Shaheed would be flying? Unlikely unless it’s defending a major point of interest or just happens to be in the flight path (especially in case of the former).

But using a $5M missile (or two in case of high PK) to bring down a $1000 quadcopter or a 20K shaheed is kind of dumb thing to do and not sustainable for most militaries. In this case it’s free aid from the West, so Ukraine doesn’t care.

 

[aziqbal]

136 drone wins by economy of scale

they pack these things in sets of 10 and off they go within 30 seconds

must say Iran has worked this one out

and it also gives one hell of a bang when it hits

 

[925boy]

1.No one can show us "independently verified" information that confirms Ukraine has a high interception rate of Shahed 136- if you can, SHOW US THE EVIDENCE. Ukraine must lie because its losing the war, simple.

2. On PDF, there seems to be an opposite relationship between what people think about Shahed-136 performance and effectiveness in the Ukraine war AND which side they are on- those who cannot admit that Ukraine is losing the war, will lose the war and will never be the same again are the same ones telling us "So many Shahed 136s have been shot down"- mind you, this is also by a Ukraine that is clearly lacking proper air defenses over Ukraine today- evidenced by effective Russian airforce activity over the Ukrainian battlefield these days.

3. Those same people that tell us that Russia is using Shahed-136s to target civilian infrastructure are in denial that energy infrastructure is a legitimate military target in war and distracting from the what matters by trying to play victim when they are not the victim- Ukrainian govt is the one committing war crimes by indiscriminately targeting civilians weekly in Donetsk- (AND in Russian border regions like Belgorod), we see these reports in most thorough Ukraine war updates on Youtube.

Also , if Shahed 136s were being used to target civilians, why so many videos of Shahed-136s blowing up military facilities like ammunition and fuel depots? Ukraine cant play victim now, its too late to be that stupid. NATO cant save Ukraine now, but brilliant Ukraine should've known that before it got intself into this irreversible mess that will disfigure its future existence. That old Ukraine is never coming back.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

Alleged Patriot Missile battery interception kills in Ukraine
View attachment 936731


I like to remind readers S-136 costs under $25K and a single Patriot missile costs $4M

So to intercept 5 S-136 (as claimed) Ukraine wasted at least $20M worth of missiles and as high as $40M.

When you are firing a SAM missile on an approaching target,you do not think this shit costs only $25K so lets leave it alone
You defend your own precious asset which may even cost Billions of Dollars like your Air bases or missile batteries.
Only 5 S136 were intercepted by Patriot so it means only those 5 were worth of taking out.

 

[mohsen]

When you are firing a SAM missile on an approaching target,you do not think this shit costs only $25K so lets leave it alone
You defend your own precious asset which may even cost Billions of Dollars like your Air bases or missile batteries.
Only 5 S136 were intercepted by Patriot so it means only those 5 were worth of taking out.

Actually, when you have some valuable assets worth protecting with Patriot, then you will make sure to place other short range defenses beside it for three reason:

1. The cost, wasting missiles which their costs is higher than the price of buying other short range air defenses.
2. Effectiveness, Patriot isn't designed to take out low flying drones,regardless of false success rates from Ukrainians.
3.Cover. Russians are looking to identify the location of Patriots, so revealing it's location for a drone is exactly what Russians want.

 

[HGV]

When you are firing a SAM missile on an approaching target,you do not think this shit costs only $25K so lets leave it alone
You defend your own precious asset which may even cost Billions of Dollars like your Air bases or missile batteries.
Only 5 S136 were intercepted by Patriot so it means only those 5 were worth of taking out.

If you have a $30m asset to protect, Russia sends 10 Shahed-136 (for $500k max), it will cost you:

(1) $30m in asset damages, OR
(2) 10 x Patriot interceptors ($4m each) = $40m (assuming 100% successful interception rate)

Either way you lose

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

If you have a $30m asset to protect, Russia sends 10 Shahed-136 (for $500k max), it will cost you:

(1) $30m in asset damages, OR
(2) 10 x Patriot interceptors ($4m each) = $40m (assuming 100% successful interception rate)

Either way you lose

Lately there has been massive work done on Counter UAV technologies especially in EW domain.
And additionally, In a well oriented national defence centre,there are always short Range defence systems also to complement High quality but expensive S2A missiles.

Ukraine has not fielded EW jammers so they are mostly at the mercy of Russians when it comes to small drones.

3.Cover. Russians are looking to identify the location of Patriots, so revealing it's location for a drone is exactly what Russians want.

Until now, Ukraine has effectively paralyzed RuAF.Russia has badly failed in SEAD/DEAD ops.