Settle Kashmir and Get the Reward!!!

[harshad]

This is so hypocritical of you to say
after independence India fiercely denied any state the option for independence.
Many principalities didn't want to join India or Pakistan but rather wanted freedom and India did not let them.
There were also a few territories, who had Muslim rulers and wanted to Join Pakistan.
But Pakistan did not push for them because the majority of the population was Hindu and we wanted to respect their wishes.
India on the other hand is still trying to come to grips with Kashmir.
give it up guy, the the Kashmiries don't want you, time to let get.

arent you guys hypocritical,you can see the suffering of muslims in kashmir but not of kashmiri pandits,tamils in sri lanka,tibetans in china
india didnt attack,control the territory of kashmir,since you guys show the world that how much you care for them and you are the same people who went against the wishes of kashmiris and tried to capture kashmir
india is a secular country so your logic that since a state has majority muslim so it should join pakistan fails
india was also ready for referendum but if you read the un resolution it says that pakistan army should withdraw from kashmir,did it do that? so there is no point just blaming india,pakistan is at as much fault as india

 

[NirmalKrish]

Sorry, you are flat out wrong.

Point 1:
Muslims in certain provinces of the British Raj were the majority. If we didn't want to be with Hindu majority provinces, and we wanted to form our country, who were the British to stop us?

Point 2:
You are using twisted facts. You say there are more Muslims in India than Pakistan. You are wrong. In fact there are more Muslims in Pakistan than there are Muslims in India.

According to the Pew , it says there are more Muslims in Pakistan than there are Muslims in India.

The Muslim population of Pakistan is: 174,082,000
The Muslim population of India is : 160,945,000

http://pewforum.org/newassets/images/reports/Muslimpopulation/Muslimpopulation.pdf

I have beaten you with facts.

Now for the sake of argument, lets suppose present-day India has more Muslims than present-day Pakistan, thats still misleading.

What about Bangladesh. The combined Muslim population of Pakistan and Bangladesh is much more than India's Muslim population.

So when Pakistan got independence in 1947, Most Muslims decided not to be with the Hindu majority provinces. So there are more Muslims in South Asia that are not in the Hindu majority areas(today's Bharat). There are more Muslims in the Muslim majority regions (Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Maldives), than in India. So stop your blatant lies!



So stop spreading lies. Don't try to look at things from twisted angle!

Point 3: Balochis don't want independence from Pakistan. There is no legitimate Islamic justification for them to do so. Balochistan is not disputed territory like Kashmir.

Pakistanis know Kashmir is disputed territory. Kashmiris know Kashmir is disputed territory.

Down with Indian oppression of Kashmir!

chess-writer your arguments about "economics" have nothing to do with the Kashmir dispute. You are merely trolling and trying to divert the focus of the arguments.


Clearly the Kashmiris don't care about money! The Kashmiris want their FREEDOM. INSH'ALLAH, the Kashmiris in IOK will have their FREEDOM.

Your arguements are ridiculous because much of it is irrelevant and merely to distract people from the focus of the argument.

Again I shall say it again.


Don't give ridiculous arguments.

The Kashmiris don't want India. The Kashmiris want independence.

The 1990's insurgency is evident of that.

Pakistan has the right to claim Kashmir according to just and moral principles.

Your propaganda won't work here.

The Indian film industry and whoever becomes the President of India is irrelevant here.

The point is, the Muslims of Kashmir don't want to be a part of India.

I will give my full and uncompromising support to my Muslim brothers in Kashmir.

I will give my full and uncompromising support to my Muslim brothers in Kashmir.

my reply short and sweet

My fellow Indian members let us take a pledge, that in any circumstances will we not let our Indian Kashmiris (Muslims, Hindu and other monitories) which make up the greater Kashmir succumb to Pakistan hostiles & to defend her from all axis of evil. We will ensure that our guard is not let down as to even allow the thought of our enemies to take an anther inch of our lands. Pakistanis can blabber whatever they want if they try something let them, the consequences will be dire. go cry all you want

 

[RazPaK]

I think this thread should be put on hiatus. Indians we can deal on this issue mutually at a later time, as this issue can only be resolved between us. Right now Pakistan has lost 24 jawans that are in theory the soul and backbone of our country. I would apprciate all Indian members that refrain from trolling at this time.


Thanks in advance.

 

[RazPaK]

Wow, I applaud all Indians on this forum alike for stopping flame posts, in respect of our Pakistani troops. If Indians can give us this much respect, in our hearts we can already return the favour. Thanks Indian PDF posters.

 

[NirmalKrish]

Wow, I applaud all Indians on this forum alike for stopping flame posts, in respect of our Pakistani troops. If Indians can give us this much respect, in our hearts we can already return the favour. Thanks Indian PDF posters.

Your Welcome, respect given is respect earned the feelings mutual. Our deepest condolences for your loss, may they rest in peace.

 

[tony singh]

How about Pakistan close the terror camps in *** and stop sending jihadis into India first.

 

[alphamale]

So many people online, doesn't anyone want to discuss/debate something.

what do u want to debate?????? the usual answers would be like there should be referendum, india should call back its forces, one day, we hope, inshallah etc etc etc.

 

[IND151]

Just not done... Terrorists are not looking for reasons to spread gloom and death, they are looking for excuses. It would be very stupid to think that terror will end if Kashmir is given away to a third country.

right.

a defense expert has said that Pakistan wants to match India's power.

he is right.

PAK doesn't like the dominance of in India in south Asia due to the fact that India is most powerful in the region.

Pakistanis ( not all ) used to see as weak people having different faith , easily conquerable , ruled by Muslims by more that 1000 years ( barley 300 years in reality ).

so they cant bear that India is getting stronger every day, having dominance in whole SA, enjoying strong position in Kashmir.

acknowledgement of India by experts as potential superpower is final straw

thus they have developed deep hatred towards India.

 

[PakShah]

@PakShah :
I will try to once again try to rebut most of your statements.

You have said :I dispute this: "Any minority in any country will want independence and a separate state if they think it is an achievable aim."
Well, look around you and you will find a lot of evidence in favour of that statement, here are a few examples
1.Breakup of the USSR
2.Irish terrorism in UK
3.Catalan and Basque separatism in Spain
4.Hutus vs Tutsis in Rwanda
5.Partition of India and Pakistan
6.Separation of Bangladesh from Pakistan
7.Tamil separatism in Sri Lanka

-In all these cases, there was a minority which was concentrated in a certain region of the country and demanded independence. The motivation for this can be Religious (as in case of India and Pakistan) or Linguistic (as in case of Pakistan and Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and LTTE, or Basque separatism in Spain) or Ethnicity (breakup of the USSR) or even something stupid like the size of a people's nose(this is unbelievable, but in Rwanda, Hutus fight against Tutsis, Hutus are the guys with the long nose, Tutsis are the ones with smaller noses). By quoting these examples, I seek to show you that people will inevitably find a reason to fight when they are in the minority in a country but in the majority locally in a certain area of that country. In case of Pakistan and Kashmir, this reason is supplied by using Religion.

-The minorities need the following to ask for independence - (a)A sense of being wronged , oppressed or persecuted (b)A Belief that they would be victorious if they fight (c)Resources for political or military resistance (d) A sense of being differrent from the people whom you're fighting.
In all the examples above you would see that these 3 things are supplied by either internal or external forces. For example, in case of Ireland, all 4 of these came from within except the resources like weapons etc. which in many cases came from people like Gaddafi who wanted to spread terrorism in the UK.

-In the case of Pakistan and Kashmir, Kashmiris get all 4 of the above things come from Pakistan. I will discuss them one by one
(a)A sense of being wronged , oppressed or persecuted - I just proved to you in my last post that Indian muslims are not exactly perseuted, in fact they are happier than their brethren in Pakistan. But Pakistan has convinced Kashmiris that they have been deliberately oppressed ! As I said before, Indian security forces do not get fun out of persecuting anyone. The Human rights violations are a direct result of Kashmir being a heavily militarised zone. Pakistan convinces Kashmiris that rights violations happen because they are Muslims.
(b)A Belief that they would be victorious if they fight - I hope no further elaboration is necessary. Your being here on forum and arguing with me over a 60 year old dispute proves the point that Pakistanis still think that they can get IOK and encourage Kashmiri Muslims to think similiarly. Isn't it a bit unethical to do so - considering that the gap between the military, political and economic capabilities of our countries is widening day by day in India's favour. In the near future, it is impossible for Pakistan to take IoK unless India agrees. Pakistan knows this but convinces Kashmiri Muslims of the exact opposite.
(c)Resources for political or military resistance -Weapons, Training Camps, Ghulam Nabi Fai, etc etc etc etc etc, Enough said !
(d) A sense of being differrent from the people whom you're fighting - By telling Kashmiri Muslims that Indian Hindus are oppressing them . The truth is if Kashmiris are being oppressed then Indian Hindus as well as India Muslims are doing so. After all our Armed forces have a lot of Muslims, Two of our presidents and Numerous supreme court judges have been Muslims. We are no different from the Kashmiri Muslims as indeed we are no different from the Pakistani Muslims, yet you convince the Kashmiris of the exact opposite.

Point (d) also goes to address your statement "Whether India is a secular country or not, that is irrelevant to the Kashmir dispute". It is very much relevant my friend, Pakistan has convinced itself as well as the Kashmiris that this is not relevent.


A rebuttal to a few other Points you raised
Points 1 and 2 - Regarding your quotes on Pakistan,Partition and Sharia etc. I was using partition as an example of how a minority will always demand separation from the majority if certain conditions exist. The examples I gave in the beginning from other countries makes this clearer I hope. I was not asking for reuniting Pakistan with India(it would be bad for India) and where have I used an economic argument to oppose the creation of Pakistan?
You said that Pakistan has no Sharia as was earlier intended by the founding fathers - Why then do you think Kashmiris will be better with you than us. In India Muslims are governed by the "Muslim Personal law" which is different from the one that applies to Hindus and others, they have almost the same religious rights as you have.

Point 3: don't know if Muslims in India are better than Muslims in Pakistan. I need do my own research to reach a conclusion.
Ok Take your time on that one. But had I been in your place I will have conceded that this statement is correct and congratulated my opponent.

Point 4 : Baluchistan
I concede, you being Pakistani know more about Balochistan than I do. But again, it was just meant to be an example of a minority which feels wronged by the majority. The Baloch issue would never be in the news if it weren't important for Pakistan to address their concerns
(However small the number of separatists you have in Baluchistan).

Point 6:Before the British came to South Asia, Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh were a bunch of Kingdoms. So what makes you think present day Pakistan was a part of Bharat in the first place?
I for one never mention old crap in my posts to this forum. You will notice that I do not talk about 1947, plebiscite, etc... because those issues are not important to me. I use the examples of partition etc just to prove a point. The purpose of history is to use it to learn lessons, that is exactly what I do in my comments. I am not interested in who was right or wrong then or if the creation of Pakistan was justified. I am interested in the present only.

There is no Balochi Muslims vs Urdu Muslims in Pakistan. All the ethnicities in Pakistan are united under the banner of Islam.
They used to say that about Bangladesh too. As I said above, learn lessons from history or it will come back to bite you.


And what about Myanmar? Myanmar too was part of the British Indian Empire. Myanmar too could have been a part of today's Bharat. So could have Sri Lanka. This is where you fail again.[/I]
Now, who is derailing the issue PakShah - India, Bangladesh and and Pakistan were ruled as one unit by the Britishers, they called it "India" collectively. Where does the question of Burma or Sri Lanka arise in this.


Closing Arguments and Criticism of Your Attitude

You are trying to divert the focus the debate of Kashmir to economics, the history of the independence of Pakistan.
All this is nonsense chess master. you just want to distract us from the main issue.
Just because I mentioned that Kashmiri Muslims in IoK will be better with India than Pakistan because India is an economically growing, secular country where they will get oppurtunity to live a better life than in Pakistan ,doesn't mean I am derailing the forum. It is directly relevent to the solution to the Kashmir problem that I am suggesting - Status quo or Conversion of LoC to IB.


Kashmiris are Muslims, and make a majority in their country. They want to rule according to their beliefs. Kashmiris were promised a referendum. Kashmiris weren't given one. Mr. Nehru promised a referendum would be held in Kashmir. Down with Indian occupation of IOK!

Again you end your post with emotional hyperbole. Have you ever thought why do you have to always fall back on emotions and false bravado
Open up your mind and see the truth when someone shows it to you. I am a guy who has read good amount of the Quran even though I am not a Muslim. I usually know what I am talking about and open minded as well (as I have shown you by accepting a few of your arguments). My only request to you and other Pakistanis is to learn lessons from history !

Don't really have the time to talk nonsense with you, but:

Point 1:
I do not accept the Britishers governing the regions of Pakistan, Today's Bharat, and Bangladesh as one unit, since the Britishers were invaders.

I do not accept what the Britishers how they wanted to rule South Asia.


I do not accept Muslims were the minority in the British Indian Empire.


I do not accept the Britisher's governance or sovereignty over the Muslim lands.


So you can say whatever you like mr. chess-master.



Point 2:

The Kashmiris are the majority in Kashmir.
u.
Your argument of ": Any minority in any country will want independence and a separate state if they think it is an achievable aim."

is grossly wrong. The Telugu are a minority in India. Do they want independence? No they do not. So the circumstances and background is also necessary to understand.

Just because this a forum, you can easily get away by posting wrong arguments. I have answered all your points.

Kashmir is not an integral part of today's Bharat.
Kashmiris were promised a referendum or a plebiscite but Mr. Nehru did not allow that to happen.


You are wasting our time. I don't care if India is a secular country or not.

I believe Muslims are better in Pakistan and I have done my research. Pakistan is better than India when it comes to wealth distribution an many other social indicators.

The education and economy in Pakistan is decent by South Asian standards. I know you Indians have launched media war, so it doesn't matter, because you constantly fed lies.

It is just the War on Terrorism which has hurt Pakistan. When the War on Terrorism ends, Pakistan will end up having social indicators rivaling Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Malaysia, and Iran.

I don't care if you accept my arguments or not. Accepting my arguments doesn't mean any of your arguments are right.

The Kashmir issue has already been debated on defence.pk

This is just merely trolling because there are no official rules governing this debate, so debating with you is worthless to begin with.

And you use the economics and education debate. . When that has nothing to do with the crux of the Kashmir dispute.

You are just running around in circles.

Ever heard of Pakistani universities such as LUMS or NUST.

 

[tvsram1992]

@PAKSHAH
I will say in a sentence,
Kashmir would have been like Hyderabad if it was completely in India .

 

[mehboobkz]

Any Indian Government, which compromises on Kashmir, would loose its election en mass, hence nobody would touch this political hot potato.....

 

[Kalyugi Mirza]

Any Indian Government, which compromises on Kashmir, would loose its election en mass, hence nobody would touch this political hot potato.....

ya dude even Pakistani is also not honest to solve this issue..it needs India ,Pakistan and Kashmir to solve this one

 

[Sinnerman108]

What happened, no response to #252 from the Pakistani contigent. PakShah I am missing your Rants, buddy !

Sure , here you go.

This would be similiar to the English not considering Scotland and Ireland a pert of their country because both Normans and Saxons were external invaders who came to their country and gave it the shape that you see on the map today. In our case, the Mughal invaders too consolidated by conquering smaller kingdoms like the Rajputs of rajasthan for example. Before them the Rajputs had also consolidated by conquering smaller city states.

Going by the same logic, Hindus can say that Kashmir was in the past entirely Hindu till Mughal invaders etc spread Islam - And hence they will disagree to even negotiate about Kashmir with you. I hope you can see that this will create problems.

I hope you are able to see why I tell you that the past is irrelevent. It has already happened, whether right or wrong - your accepting or not accepting it will change nothing at all. So please for the sake of your own sanity, stay in the present (I know it hurts you though, I empathise with you )

VS

You still haven't proven it using a coherent argument though. Plebiscite etc. is all in the past buddy - is that so hard to understand. Some from the Indian side would say that Pakistan didn't let the Plebiscite happen ! While I don't agree with them, I would certainly appreciate it if you could see the problems such an argument causes. Much better it would be, if you talked about the Present.

So you think where it is OK for you, you can fall back on history, but if you are falling on a rough patch it is OK to ignore it.

Now come up with an argument which doesn't reflect a flaw in rationality on your part and I will consider answering you.

Tut ! Tut ! In a debate never allow your opponent to repeat a good point.But since you've given me the chance, I will use it - (1) India's being secular is a point in favour of keeping Kashmir with India (2) If Kashmiri muslims are being oppressed, then they are being oppressed by both Indian Hindus and Indian Muslims. It is not that Hindus are oppresssing Muslims and they need to separate from India for that reason.

OK, he's going to use to take the opportunity. He's a taker.

Arguing that Pkistan is ahead of India in Economics, Education and Standard of living is a non-starter. Another lesson in debating - Never give your opponent a point that he can relentlessly hammer you on. I will have mercy on you and let that pass this time.

Oh, he's not a taker !

AS for economics etc ...

You are from Hindu-stan. For you economics might move the world. Your kind together with Jews made and perfected the
interest based system that is crushing humanity now. If you still believe you can use economics to buy out morality sure ;
these days it is very much possible but than THAT is where you and me will be two different people.

Lastly I have a question for you, and think before you answer.

What do you think about the breakup of East Pakistan, and what do you think about the two nation theory ?

 

[Jade]

Why such a stupid thread.!!!!

Simply put, Kashmir is the integral part of India; hence what this 'settling Kashmir' and 'getting reward'.

It is like behead yourself and get reward....laughable proposition

 

[Sinnerman108]

Why such a stupid thread.!!!!

Simply put, Kashmir is the integral part of India; hence what this 'settling Kashmir' and 'getting reward'.

It is like behead yourself and get reward....laughable proposition

Total number of personnel @ Pak Army = 550,000 give or take.
Number of personnel in IOK approximately equal to total Pak Army.

What does that tell you ?