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Serving Two Masters: Shariah Law and the Secular State


Ahmed... trust me... there is poverty here... Some may be lazy... but not all of them... Economic inequality hits a man in the face without mercy when you see certain towns in the UK...

Poverty exist in every single country, no any nation is without poverty. But defination of poverty in every country differs. Can you seriousely say that poverty in Afghanistan is the same as poverty in the UK? Poverty in Afghanistan means that somebody who dont have food or enough food, no shelter or proper shelter, no job, one man in the family working a very hard job while more than a dozen dependents are depended on him. When we say shelter and food in afghanistan, it means just bread and some other necessary things, such as onions, tomatoes, oil, tea and in many cases clean water is another issue for the majority of citizens. and in terms of shetor it is just a house with a roof, in every room more than 4-5 sleeps, other facilities in man cases doesnt exist such as kitchen, bathroom and toilet is the lowest of low level. Now poverty in europe means something else, it means that a lazy person who loves benefit and dont want to get his backside out of the house to work, he at least have a house which have all the facitilies such as toilet, kitchen, bedroom for everyone, bathroom, sitting, all of them meets the minimum required standard in terms of safety, habitation, power supply, electricity, gas, etc. those benefit lovers also recieve cash monthly that is enough for them to have all the proper food for the month, including fruit, vege, meat, and off course booze plus fags.

It is slowly collapsing however... They are unable to continue spending on their people because they have spent billions on saving the banks... What should be considered always is that our current establishment is no match or example for what what the west has... any criticism (if any at all) should be considered being matched with an ideological and theoretical approach...

how is it collapsing brother? nothing but a wishfull thinking!! the west have seen economic problems before and even worse than this, but they came out of it. majority of the countries are on the road to recovery including america and the UK, although the growth is slow, but they are recovering and negative growth have long gone and is history. yes, they bail out the banks to ensure future growth, although everybody dont like this, including myself, but it has to be done to move the vehicle of econmy. and be assured that the bankers wont have the same free ride again, the west can learn from their mistakes.
 
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how is it collapsing brother? nothing but a wishfull thinking!! the west have seen economic problems before and even worse than this, but they came out of it. majority of the countries are on the road to recovery including america and the UK, although the growth is slow, but they are recovering and negative growth have long gone and is history. yes, they bail out the banks to ensure future growth, although everybody dont like this, including myself, but it has to be done to move the vehicle of econmy. and be assured that the bankers wont have the same free ride again, the west can learn from their mistakes.

Well I dont "wish" for the west to collapse if thats what you think... But I know enough about economics to tell you that the golden days of the west's economic superiority are fast coming to an end... The problem is inherent in Capitalism... It thrives on booms and busts and the booms are becoming shorter whilst the busts are getting longer...

Without an alternate economic model in place to challenge it, the west will go on for some time but when there is talk of military takeover in the heart of the west (greece, spain) due to its crippling economy then it should be a sign for the dark days coming ahead...

and never despair for good times shall come for everyone in the world... God willing...
 
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But I know enough about economics to tell you that the golden days of the west's economic superiority are fast coming to an end... The problem is inherent in Capitalism... It thrives on booms and busts and the booms are becoming shorter whilst the busts are getting longer...

How the golden days are coming to an end? more explanations would be appreciated. the last bust in the uk was 3 decades ago and this bust is slowly coming to an end. you can see that they had strong economy for the last 25-30 years and now economic problems for 2 years and they are already out of red area.

Without an alternate economic model in place to challenge it,

what can be the alternative? dont forget that the chineese success was due to its adoption of capitalism.

and never despair for good times shall come for everyone in the world... God willing...

if you mean we will also have the good days in the future then i am not so sure about it. you dont know what might happen in the next 7-8 hundred years, but for the near future there is no light in the tunnel for now or even few 100 years.
 
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Shallow mentality... In a case against any person, one woman's witness who states that the accused was seen by her in a different place than the site of crime at the time of the alleged crime over rules all the accusers regardless if they are male or female and regardless of their number...

i didnt get this, what you said was a bit too complicated for me to understand? as far as i remeber, i have always been told that 2 women is equal one man to qualify to be a witness.
 
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Sharia law has a democratic electoral system , Shura (parliament) , Khalifa (PM-which can be removed easily) , Freedom of worship and practice , non interest economy etc

Show me! Is that too much to ask?


Is Shariah man made law or Law made by God? Is it amenable to change or not?
 
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Show me! Is that too much to ask?

for some people yes, it is too much to ask. i cant believe how much i have changed for the last 15 years!! once i was hardcore supporter of religious gov, but now i can only and only support a secular one.

Is Shariah man made law or Law made by God? Is it amenable to change or not?

no ammendment can be made as it is the word of god. On the other hand there are a few other things based on the belief of different sects of islam, eg, shia-sunni. in shia madhab, you are allowed to pay interest and not allowed to recieve interest, but in suni sect, non of them(take or give of interest) is allowed, these differeences are nothing but Ijtehad of Ulama from different groups, even sunnis have differences among themselves although in minor issues. but in cases of hudood, Sirqat, drinking etc, all sects do have the same stance.
 
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no ammendment can be made as it is the word of god.

The question is not about the Quran karim -- the question is about what is the nature of Shariah, is it made by man or is Shariah Divine, a competitor of the Quran Karim?

What informs Shariah? religious knowledge surely, what is the nature of religious knowledge? Does it grow or is it a constant???

If it does not grow, What use Ulema and Masaha'ik???
 
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The question is not about the Quran karim -- the question is about what is the nature of Shariah, is it made by man or is Shariah Divine, a competitor of the Quran Karim?

What informs Shariah? religious knowledge surely, what is the nature of religious knowledge? Does it grow or is it a constant???

If it does not grow, What use Ulema and Masaha'ik???

I dont think i am the right person to comment on this, but I reckon that Sharia is a collection of rules and orders to be followed by the individuals and on gov levels. pray 5 times a day that is personal and dont take interest while you lend your money is the gov side of the story. since it is the word of god, then no change can be made, and off course that is about the Quran. But since the Quran is giving general directions, the specifications can come from the Hadith. Hadith on the other hand have fake and authentic, i remember we used to read an Aqaeed book at school, its name was Noor and Zalam(not sure about the name), a hadith was quoted in it saying that Hazrat Mohmmad(pbuh) had once said that Noman(Abu Hanifa) will be the light of my Umaah. I asked the teacher that the prophet didnt live in that time and how come he said something about abu hanifa? he simply gave a hard slap and told me not to question the Hadith, later on i asked another person, and he thought that was a fake Hadith. We shouldnt forget that the Hadith that the sunnis accept is in most cases is different to the ones accepted by the shias. For example the hadith book which was collected by Imam Bukharaee and Imam Muslim Naishapuri is not accepted by the shias while they are the most authentic books after the quran for the sunnis, although it should be mentioned that there are some of the Ahadith that are accepted by both Sunnis and Shias, not sure what is the number of those Ahadith. As per use of Ulema, they are there to do Ijtihad(اجتهاد), those things which are not detailed in the Quran, they go to Hadith and interpret it. Sadly these Ulema have made many divisions among us, it might have been to the best of their intention, but it is done now.
 
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no ammendment can be made as it is the word of god.

Shariah merely ain't the word of God; rather some aspects may subject to change with the changing scenarios & I do know the the word CHANGE causes much ambiguity among scholars leading to emotional eruptions...
But I must say that none of the Islamic law are present their to demean humanity (if their exists do show me); even for an atheist who certainly worship nothing but Humanity may fail to prove Shariah as inhumane...Dont put forward age-old stoning issue as inhumane because I have got the answer!!
 
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Shariah merely ain't the word of God; rather some aspects may subject to change with the changing scenarios & I do know the the word CHANGE causes much ambiguity among scholars leading to emotional eruptions...
But I must say that none of the Islamic law are present their to demean humanity (if their exists do show me); even for an atheist who certainly worship nothing but Humanity may fail to prove Shariah as inhumane...Dont put forward age-old stoning issue as inhumane because I have got the answer!!

i couldnt get you my friend, do you suggest that changes can be brought in sharia? if yes then what changes and in where?
 
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The question is not about the Quran karim -- the question is about what is the nature of Shariah, is it made by man or is Shariah Divine, a competitor of the Quran Karim?

What informs Shariah? religious knowledge surely, what is the nature of religious knowledge? Does it grow or is it a constant???

If it does not grow, What use Ulema and Masaha'ik???

Shariah is not a competitor to the Quran Karim. It is man made based upon Quran , Hadith and the knowledge of Ulema and Masaha'iks. It does not change and niether is it constant, it evolves.
 
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It does not change and niether is it constant, it evolves.

can be more ambiguous than that !!
i couldnt get you my friend, do you suggest that changes can be brought in sharia? if yes then what changes and in where?
Sorry, I would have clarified; to be very precise yes Shariah can be changed its not an appropriate word though; proper word would be updated e.g the laws of slavery can be entirely re-written in Shariah & if needed may be abolished as such.
But the essence must be such to accommodate humanity at the highest level. I hope I has made you understood or still not:what:
 
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can be more ambiguous than that !!

Sorry, I would have clarified; to be very precise yes Shariah can be changed its not an appropriate word though; proper word would be updated e.g the laws of slavery can be entirely re-written in Shariah & if needed may be abolished as such.
But the essence must be such to accommodate humanity at the highest level. I hope I has made you understood or still not:what:

thanks alot, much clearer now. what other things can be updated/changed apart from slavery? i assume there is nothing mentioned about slavery in the quran, might be all the hadith.
 
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It is difficult to understand the spirit of an Islamic sytem in a Capatalist era. This is because the Islamic System is heavily based on ethics and morality. There is no morality in the Capatist system only profit and loss.

So let me start with the basics. First of all what is Deen. The word deen apears in the first surah and the meaning is Judgement. Islam is Allah's deen. It is hence Allah's Judgement. Furthermore Allah says that he has completed Deen. Hence HE HAS ALREADY MADE ALL THE JUDGEMENTS. These judgements are documented and preserved in the Holy Quran.

Shariah consists of the detailed guidelines that would ensure that Allah's Judgements are implemented. The Shariah hence is always within the framework of the Holy Quran. Otherwise it would not be Shariah but just another man made Law
 
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