Separation of Mosque and State

[I.R.A]

any one who the people will choose will suffice for the job, as long as he does not bind future generations from revoking or redesigning the laws.
laws should be made to serve people, people should not serve laws or regulatory bodies.
laws could be subjected to be amended, changed or revoked as the need should arise.

I don't think there is anything except ignorance and inefficiency of 200 million people, that is stopping from repealing ineffective useless voluminous laws. So I don't see how that someone chosen by people would help.

and people should have the right to choose there own gods and devils..

I think people already have their own gods and devils, it is just that you are not able to see it.

 

[Awan68]

Funny part is that you are assuming too much without a slightest inkling about what i have read or not. lol Baba ji

i can judge a lot from the arguments u presented, lol, there is no assumption here but experience of dealing with people like u, uncle, see ya until u can come up with something concrete...

 

[Verve]

@Azlan Haider

@Zaki this is an example which put up They even can't digest other views which lead to intolerance further lead to harm physically.

The liberal fascists are a minority and they are the true intolerants.

I've heard enough anti-Islam views from the liberal fascists in our society and most of their journey from a mosque going child (who has completed The Quran a few times in early years) to Islam bashing passes through this 'state must be secular' BS. These lot eventually disbelief in our Prophet (S.A.W).

Better than islamo fascists

Other side of same coin. One side is likes of TTP/ISIS/etc and the other the Liberal Fascists. Both Khawarij!

As said above, this kind (whether you are one of them, you decide) are a minority. And minority will not dictate the system (although it does at present as a small ℅ of voters elect the corrupt leaders - make voting mandatory from age 18 and ask public to select one leader only .. NS etc would never get elected ever again!).

 

[Zaem]

A good example of separating religion from state is China only...I don't see others!!!!!

China?! With its discrimination of Falun Gong practioners, Uyghurs, Christian etc.
China is just like Soviet Union 2.0 its going to collapse if it continues this way.

The world is lurching to the right, with right wing leaders and populist parties spring up

Liberalism is dying and even the west is rejecting it


So if the west is rejecting it, then why should Pakistan embrace it



We need to embrace our own right wing and enforce the will of the majority with the minorities sucking it up like whats happening in the rest of the world

West isnt rejectin Liberalism... If you think youre going to see stoning of gays, muslims etc. In streets of Paris, im sorry to burst your bubble

Our "far right" is simply people who want to control the flow of refugees and are fed up with the state media being censored about problems this Syrian refugee crisis has brought on many European countries.
Even with Le Pen, France would be far more liberal than any muslim nation has ever been.

 

[TMA]

Secularism doesnt tell you to oppress religion, its just separating state and religion and nothing else, secularism in its true sense is ensuring that everyone has the right to live his life as he pleases which includes living your religion as you wish as long as you keep it for yourself.

USSR was oppressive in every sense not only against religion and its cause was definately not secularism.

As Iqbal has said separate religion and state and one is left with cheengezi.

Agree to disagree.

Iqbal ?

Iqbal says about separation of state and church/mosque (i.e secularism) that:

Islam, as a religio-political system, no doubt does permit such a view ...

(Reconstruction of Religious thought in Islam)




Failure of USSR in implementing secularism and socialism is the failure of the Russians, not a failure of Secularism or Socialism

Just as the failure of Muslim Countries in the contemporary world is a failure of Muslims, not Islam

The real Iqbal is in Dari and Urdu, the English Iqbal is only for his Western overlords and his Western "brainwashed" compatriots.

 

[grey boy 2]

China?! With its discrimination of Falun Gong practioners, Uyghurs, Christian etc.
China is just like Soviet Union 2.0 its going to collapse if it continues this way.

Why miss out the Hindus? we Chinese provided "curry beef" in school, on HSR and planes for Hindus only
NO "cow dung" for cooking and worst of all, NO "open exhibition call of the nature" allowed
Chinese are real sadist

 

[hussain0216]

China?! With its discrimination of Falun Gong practioners, Uyghurs, Christian etc.
China is just like Soviet Union 2.0 its going to collapse if it continues this way.


West isnt rejectin Liberalism... If you think youre going to see stoning of gays, muslims etc. In streets of Paris, im sorry to burst your bubble

Our "far right" is simply people who want to control the flow of refugees and are fed up with the state media being censored about problems this Syrian refugee crisis has brought on many European countries.
Even with Le Pen, France would be far more liberal than any muslim nation has ever been.

Liberalism is on the retreat across Europe

These far right and populist parties do not have any credible plan outside of right wing anti migrant or muslim proposals

Europe's lurch to the right will continue it is out of your control so it may start as anti migrant sentiment but will snowball into aggressive nationalism and eventually start curtailing and cutting rights and liberties


All I am saying is that with this happening in Europe and the west, with populist parties rising across the world

We need to do the same, we need to accept our own right wing
Reject a dying liberalism and maybe stop worrying about rights of Christians or other minorities when Europe itself is heading down that path

 

[haviZsultan]

Secularism is not a system against Islam. The Ummayads, spanish regimes all were secular. Once we get this in our head and think logically rather than emotionally we will get rid of the influence of mullahs. Ijtehad is a very important concept that should be promoted very actively. It is sad that muslims were the creators of the secular system at a time when christians were wallowing in fanaticism. We have become the Europe of the dark ages.

 

[hussain0216]

Secularism is not a system against Islam. The Ummayads, spanish regimes all were secular. Once we get this in our head and think logically rather than emotionally we will get rid of the influence of mullahs. Ijtehad is a very important concept that should be promoted very actively. It is sad that muslims were the creators of the secular system at a time when christians were wallowing in fanaticism. We have become the Europe of the dark ages.

The west is heading away from secularism or using it to force and suppress faith

If we give this ideology a foot in the door then it will end in suppression of our faith e.g Egypt or old turkey


Embrace our right wing like the rest of the world is doing
Stop being apologetic

Ahmedis and the rest of them must either accept the will of the majority or move

 

[haviZsultan]

The west is heading away from secularism or using it to force and suppress faith

If we give this ideology a foot in the door then it will end in suppression of our faith e.g Egypt or old turkey


Embrace our right wing like the rest of the world is doing
Stop being apologetic

Ahmedis and the rest of them must either accept the will of the majority or move

Banning minarets and scarves is not a true representation of secularism. It is not true secularism. In secularism you can drink, pray, worship, not worship, you are free to do what you want and the state will not interfere. Islamically it is indeed the better system.

 

[hussain0216]

Banning minarets and scarves is not a true representation of secularism. It is not true secularism. In secularism you can drink, pray, worship, not worship, you are free to do what you want and the state will not interfere. Islamically it is indeed the better system.

Sure but secularism has indeed been used to ban scarves and minerets and beards etc

So once instilled in a country whilst democratic has had a history of occasional military rule, whats to stop anyone utilising those rules to suppress our faith.


Better to accept our Islamic Republic and stop bitching about it
Accept democracy
Try to curtail corruption and understand the way the wind is blowing in the world that us trying to run and embrace liberalism and secularism when the world is beginning to turn from it is counter productive for our own nation and people

 

[war&peace]

Secularism is not a system against Islam. The Ummayads, spanish regimes all were secular. Once we get this in our head and think logically rather than emotionally we will get rid of the influence of mullahs. Ijtehad is a very important concept that should be promoted very actively. It is sad that muslims were the creators of the secular system at a time when christians were wallowing in fanaticism. We have become the Europe of the dark ages.

Sir, Ummayyads of Spain (Andalusia) are not the best role model for us for multiple reason. The role model for all Muslim countries is the time of the Holy Prophet (ﷺ) in Madina and the succeeding caliphates by the first four caliphs.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Then what about Mullah/Molvi shining shops of every section of Islam including Shia, Sunni, deoband, ahmedi, wahabi.
Molvi and madrasa student has everything to lose in this case which they won't allow. They will again do extremism and violent processions.

 

[hussain0216]

Then what about Mullah/Molvi shining shops of every section of Islam including Shia, Sunni, deoband, ahmedi, wahabi.
Molvi and madrasa student has everything to lose in this case which they won't allow. They will again do extremism and violent processions.

Shining shops?

 

[war&peace]

Banning minarets and scarves is not a true representation of secularism. It is not true secularism. In secularism you can drink, pray, worship, not worship, you are free to do what you want and the state will not interfere. Islamically it is indeed the better system.

Sir Islamic state (where Muslims are in majority) is required to implement Islamic system but the minorities are given their rights of worship, guaranteed the safety of life and property especially if they pay the taxes. They will also be ensured placement in jobs and other social securities on fair basis. The justice system will also treat them equal but it has to be according the tenets of Islamic jurisprudence aka Shariah. So in that regard, Islam is secular as you have been defining the secular system. Christian living in a true Islamic state will be free to marry and celebrate their events as per their religion which is also the case in Pakistan...But what they can't do is the public use of that freedom especially when Muslim are around for example drinking publicly and going into the street in drunk condition or expose their bodies in public but whatever they do inside the boundaries of their homes are mostly not the concern of the state. However the social justice and economic system will be Islamic.

Then what about Mullah/Molvi shining shops of every section of Islam including Shia, Sunni, deoband, ahmedi, wahabi.
Molvi and madrasa student has everything to lose in this case which they won't allow. They will again do extremism and violent processions.

If the libtards have problem, no body is stopping them rather people will be happy as the house will be clean... All the mess we see in Pakistan today is created by libtards who have been in govt since almost the creation of the country.