Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked

[dadeechi]

Such things don't mean anything in the real world, especially in geo politics and business. The world is full of such "guilty" forces (from MNC's to Nations) plundering the world and they sit in judgement on others.



Pointing the finger at somebody else is the most common tactics in Criminal Defence strategy. DCNS public posturing would be to point fingers at India, IN, "foreign hand", "conspiracy", competition, etc. etc.

In private they will demand for proof when challenged and take a hard stand.

Between these two lies negotiations.

You can only negotiate if you have some chips with you.

India just being a spectator to French acquisitions would not at all help at the negotiation table.

 

[dadeechi]

Yup. That is why DCNS was quick to point the finger at India when questioned in Australia about the leak.

That is why DCNS did not even bother to inform MoD, IN or GoI about the leak even after they had come to know of it.

DCNS has already decided to play hard ball.

The ball is clearly in the MoD's court and considering how the Italian Marine were released for getting India into MTCR, How India had for years Negotiated with Terrorists and their sponsors, How Russia was able to screw India over during the purchase of Vikramaditya, How we have put a moratorium on nuclear testing, or how Russian culprit of the purulia arms dropping was released on the insistence of Russia, GoI has over the years already demonstrated to the world our Weakness and lack of resolve in standing up for Indians.

All this while Indians continued to cheer for the govt. of the day and whitewash every one of these action. (see the same thing happen in pdf ?)

Strength begins at Resolve.

The last time India showed resolve was when Vajpayee tested our Nukes (immediately followed by self imposed moratorium) that showed weakness. Before that the Bangladesh war by IG.

You Negotiated from Strength, not weakness. When we cannot even negotiate with puny pakistan, I would not bother to aim too high with our Negotiation skills.

The best we can do is "haggle" in the name of "negotiations"............ followed by cheering Indians admiring our "skills" in negotiations. Its pathetic and its funny. Makes you wonder whether to laugh or cry.

Excellent post. Fully agree.

 

[Aero]

I totally understand what you are saying but remember what is Unknown is Unknown.

But We can Agree on that data leaked in 2011 or before will be Standard for entire Scorpene class not just Indian variant.
Unless we see all data for ourselves we can't be sure of anything but manuals can be thousands of pages, so may be just that or may be not.

It is always easier to have a mitigating plan for a know risk than an unknown risk.

I think people involved in our country 's security related decision making knows it well, they may be forming one .

And you can only implement any mitigating with full cooperating of the OEM which is lacking in this case.

If need be DCNS will most likely come to terms.

All mitigating plans have to be implemented by GoI on its own.

May be they are already on it.

DCNS has already thrown India under the bus by claiming & indicating the leak happened from Indian end. The documents have India logos.

Nope they backed down from that statement later. (Go check link given below)

By being defensive, GoI is going to give more ammunition to the OEM.

Lets wait & see.

DCNS would never claim responsibility. They have already gone on offensive saying their systems are secure and in case of Indian it was subcontracted. They are already washing away their hands.

Again , see the link

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...a/news-story/38f8f0c1d78fcbb358581cf27819acfb

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Anyone noticed that in last 24 hours much of the noise mellowed down.. especially after the weekend relase of the news report and how the data was stolen and reached the news reporter..
Like our media suddenly is trying to keep a distance from it..
On top even if folks are trying to rake it up, the support seems to be weakening.

For everyone -
Do check out Chilean Navy Scorpenes.. You might be happy knowing the source of plain vanilla specs in those manuals.

As i said in earlier posts showed that Indian Submarine hull was under preparation in 2011 and that was the time all components order were placed which started fitting in 2012 onwards, it was practically impossible to have a manual for the first submarine when we dont even know which system and version would finally go into the Kalavari.

It will finally boil down to Chilean Navy Scorpene Manuals base version for Indian Navy (sample manual model) to build on and make their own for operational purposes.

Then will come to the million dollar question part-
Will Chilean navy share the specs with India out in a manual unless its a general purpose manual and does not in any manner compromise the Chilean Scorpenes?
My logic says they will never compromise just like any other Navy in the world.

Yes a more through probe must be done to take on DCNS and see what and how we can get some more benefits out of the situation and also seek reassurances that such security breaches are avoided in future... Also to double check all the 22k pages dont reveal any more new bunnies..

My gut feeling says talk with DGA and ensure we extract some indirect compensation by the way of greater access to the overall tech sharing with us at no cost.

 

[monitor]

3 Reasons Why #ScorpeneLeak Is A BIG Worry
Shiv Aroor Aug 25 2016 2 23 pm

Over the last 36 hours since the Scorpene Leak scandal broke, plenty has been said about the nature of the leak and its potential impact on Indian submarine operations and deployments. The Indian Navy has set up a top-level inquiry team to investigate the leak. India has also unequivocally put the onus on France, officially declaring that the leak for was from ‘foreign source’. In the mean time, government officials have sought to play down the impact of the leak, both officially and otherwise. Among the things being said: the leaked documents are technical manuals, are outdated, don’t constitute sensitive information and don’t pertain to India’s Scorpenes alone. An MoD official has also been quoted as saying there is no cause for worry. Handling an explosive situation where the Indian government has clearly been blindsided by the leak is one thing. But to brush the leak aside and recognise it for anything other than a devastating breach is to ensure that it happens again. Here now is a list of three reasons why the Scorpene Leak scandal is the most serious non-conflict cause for worry the Indian military has faced in a long time.

1. The fact that officially controlled/restricted documents of any kind pertaining to strategic platforms have found their way into the public domain itself is the principal cause for alarm. Documentation and literature running into many thousands of pages are restricted for several reasons — tactical, strategic, economic and commercial. A leak establishes that the system on the Scorpene programme has holes. Period. That hole is now the centerpiece of two separate investigations in India and France. That hole has no place in a $3 billion transaction that was underscored by an integrity pact. That hole has no place in an enormously complex programme that looks to shore up critical force levels in one of India’s most crucial combat arms.
2. Indian Navy submariners (both serving and retired) are unanimously alarmed. A serving Lieutenant Commander I spoke to, currently deployed on a Kilo-class boat, said, “We’ve seen some of the pages that are out there. But we don’t know what else is out there. Until we know, we have to assume the worst. That’s how the submarine service works.” Nothing truer. The Indian Navy itself, in its official statement today, perplexingly pointed to the redacted documents published by The Australian, as if the Australian newspaper/website is the source of the leak. The truth is, at this stage, the Indian Navy and government aren’t fully clear about what’s been leaked. It’s a metaphor that reflects submarine operations perfectly: what isn’t known could sink you.
3. But there’s something much more fundamental about the leak that isn’t being recognised as much as it probably should. A second submariner I spoke to illustrated the point in the gritty way submariners do. He provided me with the following scenario: “Imagine you’re sent into a large hall full of silent people and ordered to track down a particular person. You don’t know their name, what they look like, what they sound like. Now imagine being sent into that same room with a photograph of the person, a voice sample. How much sooner would you find the person?” He admits that’s a simplistic example, but he says it conveys a very fundamental message about submarine operations. In a world of darkness and silence, the smallest glimmer of light or sound is actionable data, information that helps decisions, speeds up processes, helps evasion and tracking. 22,000 pages that reportedly cover everything from the Scorpene’s vulnerabilities to its frequencies to its acoustic profiles sounds like a “nightmare” in the submariner’s words. I asked him to list the possible nature of data compromised in the leak. His list: propulsion and cavitation data, acoustics at ultra-slow speed, combat system acoustics, drive turbine sound profile, shifting sonar profile during rapid dive, frequencies at snorkling and shallow depth, acoustic dynamics shift between shallow stationary float and snorkeling depth. Conversations in media and within the Navy wonder if technical manuals and specifications of submarine platforms really provide any fodder to adversaries. I quote, once again, a submariner: “We don’t know what’s out there. And, yes.”

 

[GuardianRED]

Anyone noticed that in last 24 hours much of the noise mellowed down.. especially after the weekend relase of the news report and how the data was stolen and reached the news reporter..
Like our media suddenly is trying to keep a distance from it..
On top even if folks are trying to rake it up, the support seems to be weakening.

For everyone -
Do check out Chilean Navy Scorpenes.. You might be happy knowing the source of plain vanilla specs in those manuals.

As i said in earlier posts showed that Indian Submarine hull was under preparation in 2011 and that was the time all components order were placed which started fitting in 2012 onwards, it was practically impossible to have a manual for the first submarine when we dont even know which system and version would finally go into the Kalavari.

It will finally boil down to Chilean Navy Scorpene Manuals base version for Indian Navy (sample manual model) to build on and make their own for operational purposes.

Then will come to the million dollar question part-
Will Chilean navy share the specs with India out in a manual unless its a general purpose manual and does not in any manner compromise the Chilean Scorpenes?
My logic says they will never compromise just like any other Navy in the world.

Yes a more through probe must be done to take on DCNS and see what and how we can get some more benefits out of the situation and also seek reassurances that such security breaches are avoided in future... Also to double check all the 22k pages dont reveal any more new bunnies..

My gut feeling says talk with DGA and ensure we extract some indirect compensation by the way of greater access to the overall tech sharing with us at no cost.

Isn't Monday the day , the aussie reporter is suppose to released docs regarding the Weapon systems?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Isn't Monday the day , the aussie reporter is suppose to released docs regarding the Weapon systems?

Yes he will release and also show case that but again we will check and see if its same as Chilean navy one bcz they have the base version and their HWT is guess what - Blackshark...

I am sure that will be redacted for safety purposes but what it will point is the range, speed and say stuff like how the Weapon system console will look.. Perhaps some depth and pressure parameters also again redacted form..

and the theft disk formal handover (and yes no copies of the disk being made statement )

I am eagerly waiting..

 

[PARIKRAMA]

So finally some talks from Cameron on HT

Leaked Scorpene material just the tip of the iceberg, claims journalist

• Rahul Singh, Hindustan Times, New Delhi
  Updated: Aug 28, 2016 10:12 IST

The Australian journalist, who broke the Scorpene submarine leak story, said on Saturday the leaked material posted online by his newspaper was “just the tip of the iceberg,” cautioning India that the data’s interception by foreign intelligence agencies in its original form could be damaging.

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar said on Friday the revelations were not a “big worry”but India was prepared for the worst.

“The minister’s comments seem to be aimed at calming down concerns in India about sensitive material being available in its uncontrolled form,” journalist Cameron Stewart, 53, told HT from Melbourne.

Six Scorpene submarines are being built in India in collaboration with French shipbuilder DCNS under a Rs 23,562-crore project.

His newspaper, The Australian, redacted sensitive details before uploading around 30 documents on the web — the leaks that detail the contracted parameters and combat capabilities of the Scorpene run into 22,400 pages.

The newspaper is unlikely to publish more material from the leaked files.

He said, “We don’t intend to publish many more documents on the web. The intention was to reveal the story of this serious breach, not to release documents. The few documents we published on the web were to back the story.”

The newspaper reported on Friday that the whistleblower behind the leak plans to hand over the disk to the Australian government on Monday.

As the navy scrambles to assess the potential impact of the leak without access to the massive tranche of documents, defence ministry sources said on Saturday India would activate diplomatic channels to obtain the disk.

Stewart has not read the entire set of 22,400 leaked pages but he has pored over “an awful lot of those documents”.

“No international navy would want such sensitive details to be out in the public domain. I have gone through all the major directories in the documents with the help of an expert,” he said.

India has written to French authorities to probe the leak with urgency and share the findings.

South Block sources said the French company has not made direct contact with the government after the leak.

Have Indian agencies contacted him?

“No one has but even if they did, I will not be in a position to give them any data. The data is not mine, I don’t have a copy of it…I have only accessed it,” he added.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...istleblower/story-eFeTGcf9gbrMoE7GE6AgGK.html

@Abingdonboy @Vergennes @hellfire @Nilgiri @Spectre @GuardianRED @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @dadeechi @R!CK @others

Do you see a changed tone?
Is he backtracking now bcz his motivation and intentions are questioned?

Also its clear he has not gone through the documents and the line
"I have gone through all the major directories in the documents with the help of an expert,”
is also a more of cursory take on looking at few docpages as he himself admitted here
The data is not mine, I don’t have a copy of it…I have only accessed it,”

Well now lets see what so called rest data reveals.. but this kind of proofs that it was more sensationalism then really substance,, Let the probe complete on rest of 22k dox as well.. It would be much better to see then and match the conclusions..

 

[Nilgiri]

So finally some talks from Cameron on HT

Leaked Scorpene material just the tip of the iceberg, claims journalist

• Rahul Singh, Hindustan Times, New Delhi
  Updated: Aug 28, 2016 10:12 IST

The Australian journalist, who broke the Scorpene submarine leak story, said on Saturday the leaked material posted online by his newspaper was “just the tip of the iceberg,” cautioning India that the data’s interception by foreign intelligence agencies in its original form could be damaging.

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar said on Friday the revelations were not a “big worry”but India was prepared for the worst.

“The minister’s comments seem to be aimed at calming down concerns in India about sensitive material being available in its uncontrolled form,” journalist Cameron Stewart, 53, told HT from Melbourne.

Six Scorpene submarines are being built in India in collaboration with French shipbuilder DCNS under a Rs 23,562-crore project.

His newspaper, The Australian, redacted sensitive details before uploading around 30 documents on the web — the leaks that detail the contracted parameters and combat capabilities of the Scorpene run into 22,400 pages.

The newspaper is unlikely to publish more material from the leaked files.

He said, “We don’t intend to publish many more documents on the web. The intention was to reveal the story of this serious breach, not to release documents. The few documents we published on the web were to back the story.”

The newspaper reported on Friday that the whistleblower behind the leak plans to hand over the disk to the Australian government on Monday.

As the navy scrambles to assess the potential impact of the leak without access to the massive tranche of documents, defence ministry sources said on Saturday India would activate diplomatic channels to obtain the disk.

Stewart has not read the entire set of 22,400 leaked pages but he has pored over “an awful lot of those documents”.

“No international navy would want such sensitive details to be out in the public domain. I have gone through all the major directories in the documents with the help of an expert,” he said.

India has written to French authorities to probe the leak with urgency and share the findings.

South Block sources said the French company has not made direct contact with the government after the leak.

Have Indian agencies contacted him?

“No one has but even if they did, I will not be in a position to give them any data. The data is not mine, I don’t have a copy of it…I have only accessed it,” he added.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...istleblower/story-eFeTGcf9gbrMoE7GE6AgGK.html

@Abingdonboy @Vergennes @hellfire @Nilgiri @Spectre @GuardianRED @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @dadeechi @R!CK @others

Do you see a changed tone?
Is he backtracking now bcz his motivation and intentions are questioned?

Also its clear he has not gone through the documents and the line
"I have gone through all the major directories in the documents with the help of an expert,”
is also a more of cursory take on looking at few docpages as he himself admitted here
The data is not mine, I don’t have a copy of it…I have only accessed it,”

Well now lets see what so called rest data reveals.. but this kind of proofs that it was more sensationalism then really substance,, Let the probe complete on rest of 22k dox as well.. It would be much better to see then and match the conclusions..

Its a classic media style bait and hook strategy.

 

[911]

The data is safe with the Australians. Its really safe.

 

[Shankranthi]

The data is safe with the Australians. Its really safe.

Its a good time to invade them. Their entire population is less than that of Mumbai and Delhi combined.

 

[GuardianRED]

So finally some talks from Cameron on HT

Leaked Scorpene material just the tip of the iceberg, claims journalist

• Rahul Singh, Hindustan Times, New Delhi
  Updated: Aug 28, 2016 10:12 IST

The Australian journalist, who broke the Scorpene submarine leak story, said on Saturday the leaked material posted online by his newspaper was “just the tip of the iceberg,” cautioning India that the data’s interception by foreign intelligence agencies in its original form could be damaging.

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar said on Friday the revelations were not a “big worry”but India was prepared for the worst.

“The minister’s comments seem to be aimed at calming down concerns in India about sensitive material being available in its uncontrolled form,” journalist Cameron Stewart, 53, told HT from Melbourne.

Six Scorpene submarines are being built in India in collaboration with French shipbuilder DCNS under a Rs 23,562-crore project.

His newspaper, The Australian, redacted sensitive details before uploading around 30 documents on the web — the leaks that detail the contracted parameters and combat capabilities of the Scorpene run into 22,400 pages.

The newspaper is unlikely to publish more material from the leaked files.

He said, “We don’t intend to publish many more documents on the web. The intention was to reveal the story of this serious breach, not to release documents. The few documents we published on the web were to back the story.”

The newspaper reported on Friday that the whistleblower behind the leak plans to hand over the disk to the Australian government on Monday.

As the navy scrambles to assess the potential impact of the leak without access to the massive tranche of documents, defence ministry sources said on Saturday India would activate diplomatic channels to obtain the disk.

Stewart has not read the entire set of 22,400 leaked pages but he has pored over “an awful lot of those documents”.

“No international navy would want such sensitive details to be out in the public domain. I have gone through all the major directories in the documents with the help of an expert,” he said.

India has written to French authorities to probe the leak with urgency and share the findings.

South Block sources said the French company has not made direct contact with the government after the leak.

Have Indian agencies contacted him?

“No one has but even if they did, I will not be in a position to give them any data. The data is not mine, I don’t have a copy of it…I have only accessed it,” he added.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...istleblower/story-eFeTGcf9gbrMoE7GE6AgGK.html

@Abingdonboy @Vergennes @hellfire @Nilgiri @Spectre @GuardianRED @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @dadeechi @R!CK @others

Do you see a changed tone?
Is he backtracking now bcz his motivation and intentions are questioned?

Also its clear he has not gone through the documents and the line
"I have gone through all the major directories in the documents with the help of an expert,”
is also a more of cursory take on looking at few docpages as he himself admitted here
The data is not mine, I don’t have a copy of it…I have only accessed it,”

Well now lets see what so called rest data reveals.. but this kind of proofs that it was more sensationalism then really substance,, Let the probe complete on rest of 22k dox as well.. It would be much better to see then and match the conclusions..

Trying to understand the what to make of the article, the Aussie reporter is trying to make himself relevant w.r.t the statement released by our DM and the Our reporter trying to say he is very relevant!

Still lets see what happens next!

 

[911]

Its a good time to invade them. Their entire population is less than that of Mumbai and Delhi combined.

its funny when western nations show how much they care about India. This leak is only big because the evil Chinese may get their hands on those documents.

 

[Shankranthi]

its funny when western nations show how much they care about India. This leak is only big because the evil Chinese may get their hands on those documents.

I think it had something to do with DCNS winning the contract to build Australian Submarines.

It certainly puts DCNS in an disadvantaged position, India may be just collateral damage. Then again, who knows for sure. It could be far more sinister than that.

 

[911]

Trying to understand the what to make of the article, the Aussie reporter is trying to make himself relevant w.r.t the statement released by our DM and the Our reporter trying to say he is very relevant!

Still lets see what happens next!

Yes India is the center of the stage and no one is questiong the French. Its because the leak happened years ago and when the stray documents reached somewhere else on the planet, so French are clueless and since these documents deals with Indian sub and security, we are in trouble.

I think it had something to do with DCNS winning the contract to build Australian Submarines.

It certainly puts DCNS in an disadvantaged position, India may be just collateral damage. Then again, who knows for sure. It could be far more sinister than that.

Only if Australia wants to cancel the recent deal. This only after India cancels the years old deal (its chances are low) which Australians may try and pressure us in coming days if that is their purpose.