Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked

[Spectre]

Asked and answered. Not my problem if you have a comprehension issue

I dont have a comprehension issue but you certainly have a deflection issue..

Now if the Australian daily chose to black out what they thought was "vital"....thats their decision to do so on what they thought was some gold mine.....but that changes nothing if the base information is not secret or top secret.

Now this is funny - Aussi daily blacked out, but it is Indian MoD taking a sigh of relief and publicly stating that thank God Aussies blacked out the vital stuff.. They could have simply come out with - Meh! Nothing secret was present - remove all ambiguity. But no, they are way smarter than you and knew if they made that foolhardy argument then would be crucified so they hedged (foolishly at that).

But Yeah! You Sir know more than MoD so I should take your word for it.. No thank you

You really have no clue about the levels of document control in a defence system do you?

Leave aside what I know or don't know- I am going to put you on the same pedestal where I put everyone else I meet online. If you claim the strength of your argument on the basis of your credentials then be ready to provide them. I for one would rather argue on logic.

various information can be classified as vital (and its preferred but not necessary for them to be blacked out) but they have no bearing on operational capability

By the same logic various information can be classified as vital and necessary to blacked out which have bearing on op cap. Can you confidently say that not even one line out 22,000 pages have bearing on op capablities?

DCNS couldn't. Indian Navy couldn't. MoD couldn't. But yeah you sure can make that call... No investigation - nothing. Perhaps GoI should just hire you instead of spending so much resources on the investigators and such.

 

[Nilgiri]

The non redacted versions are already present with every other naval force who have requested DCNS to compete in tenders for their submarines.. What data the Newspaper had shared is not out of the world data.

Even if there is a constant attempt to highlight that no it compromises our subs in some manner, the fact is it cannot compromise beyond the fact that now people know how to operate a submarine..

Submarines are not such a system where you get a pinpoint frequency and you see the subs lighting up like a bogey with red alert sign some 1000 km away bcz of this leak. Nor it will ever be like that scenario really. The fact remains the submarines and data whatever comes out from this leak or in the data shared by DCNS under tender all are of plain vanilla pieces.



There is a term used - its "restricted" so that means its for authorised person only. SO in no manner Indian Navy will say its manuals are non vital bcz saying that demeans the first level of security clearance needed in the first place itself. . But saying that and saying subs are compromised does not go hand in hand.

Yes, i dont have all the data as whatever is public its out there.. But again i am saying that Scorpene of India are far more customized edition than what is out here in public. Its not a plain vanilla submarine.

One must understand its not blue print level details or in any manners will ever provide a capability to adversaries to either reverse engineer the sub or its systems nor a capability to block the whole submarines ability with a remote control command.

I mean this wasone of the major points (among many) in India customizing and locally building the Scorpene to begin with!

It gives much larger control with India for its own top secret data, an extra layer of security if you will.

 

[Spectre]

The non redacted versions are already present with every other naval force who have requested DCNS to compete in tenders for their submarines.. What data the Newspaper had shared is not out of the world data.

Even if there is a constant attempt to highlight that no it compromises our subs in some manner, the fact is it cannot compromise beyond the fact that now people know how to operate a submarine..

Submarines are not such a system where you get a pinpoint frequency and you see the subs lighting up like a bogey with red alert sign some 1000 km away bcz of this leak. Nor it will ever be like that scenario really. The fact remains the submarines and data whatever comes out from this leak or in the data shared by DCNS under tender all are of plain vanilla pieces.



There is a term used - its "restricted" so that means its for authorised person only. SO in no manner Indian Navy will say its manuals are non vital bcz saying that demeans the first level of security clearance needed in the first place itself. . But saying that and saying subs are compromised does not go hand in hand.

Yes, i dont have all the data as whatever is public its out there.. But again i am saying that Scorpene of India are far more customized edition than what is out here in public. Its not a plain vanilla submarine.

One must understand its not blue print level details or in any manners will ever provide a capability to adversaries to either reverse engineer the sub or its systems nor a capability to block the whole submarines ability with a remote control command.

While I may differ with you on occasion, I always admire your polite and calm bearing which reflects in your posts.

Now that's done let's get on with it..

Look let's assume there 100 parameters which are secret and bearing on operations of submarines. And these 22,000 pages allow either directly or by inference to get a read on even one of them - then is it the end of world - No! But to have them out for free - raises my BP. We paid billions of dollars for these subs - and if there even a scratch on them - You can bet I ll scream

Detecting subs is a very time intensive, resource heavy business and navies spend years on it. Neither you nor anyone else can claim that even vanilla manual which is restricted for a reason of a non customized version of Scorpene will not add to the glossary of knowledge adversary has. It may not provide direct counters but can lead to them. It can be a short cut. It can reduce their work load.

That I am not ok with.. I want to make it as tough as I can for enemy to detect my subs and when my vendor/seller gives them a short cut then I am gonna clip his ears.

 

[Nilgiri]

Leave aside what I know or don't know- I am going to put you on the same pedestal where I put everyone else I meet online. If you claim the strength of your argument on the basis of your credentials then be ready to provide them. I for one would rather argue on logic.

OK so you don't. Im sorry.... purely logical arguments mean nothing to me when the premise is faulty. You can go on logically proving anything while claiming the earth is flat (in this case what vital exactly means according to the MoD and to a media daily) because someone told you that....but I have no time for that line of argument.

You obviously have no first hand experience about what is being talked about here....you can continue your discussion with PARIKRAMA, he has way more patience to interact and indulge your incessant drivel about all of this since you have made up your mind.

I on the other hand will be waiting for more MoD releases and DCNS statements and progress on the investigation.....that matters more to me than what someone on the internet believes to be "logic".

I'm out, have a good day.

Can you confidently say that not even one line out 22,000 pages have bearing on op capablities?

Can you confidently say the that at least one line does?

 

[Spectre]

OK so you don't. Im sorry.... purely logical arguments mean nothing to me when the premise is faulty. You can go on logically proving anything while claiming the earth is flat (in this case what vital exactly means according to the MoD and to a media daily) because someone told you that....but I have no time for that line of argument.

You obviously have no first hand experience about what is being talked about here....you can continue your discussion with PARIKRAMA, he has way more patience to interact and indulge your incessant drivel about all of this since you have made up your mind.

I on the other hand will be waiting for more MoD releases and DCNS statements and progress on the investigation.....that matters more to me than what someone on the internet believes to be "logic".

I'm out, have a good day.

The very fact that there is an investigation and not a snap statement of dismissal underlines the seriousness of the issue.. Good Day to you too

Can you confidently say the that at least one line does?

Yes, I can.. Combat Management System - A Manual would provide information on their operation. Fields of display, detection parameters, sensor linkages and response times and so on.

China doesn't have this information for a scorpene - this effects us in two ways

- It allows China to design better combat management systems since they lack exposure to western submarines
- It allows them to know the types of sensors. There are 1000s of possible combinations for mil grade sensors and knowing their op parameters like their temp characteristics, detection ranges and parameters etc will allow them to incorporate such information in their own designs and in addition gives the captain of their enemy ships some idea of the capabilities of the Scorpene itself

I took the most non vital parts. Restricted but no secret. But you have to understand they are restricted for a reason. Submarines are not like other vessels - they are fewer in number, very costly and weapons to be used only in war. So having a training manual describing how to operate the enemy submarines itself is a coup. It allows you to get in the head of enemy captain. In comparison do we know anything about Chinese Jin class? No. but they have an idea or broad contours about ours.

 

[Nilgiri]

Yes, I can.. Combat Management System - A Manual would provide information on their operation. Fields of display, detection parameters, sensor linkages and response times and so on.

China doesn't have this information for a scorpene - this effects us in two ways

- It allows China to design better combat management systems since they lack exposure to western submarines
- It allows them to know the types of sensors. There are 1000s of possible combinations for mil grade sensors and knowing their op parameters like their temp characteristics, detection ranges and parameters etc will allow them to incorporate such information in their own designs and in addition gives the captain of their enemy ships some idea of the capabilities of the Scorpene itself

I'm sorry but the DCNS vanilla scorpene combat management system has been out there, pretty much open source, every since it was first exported to countries like Malaysia.

Its a very standard document that any RFP would generate. In defence world, thats the very first thing any major country acquires, studies and then puts in a basement to gather dust.....whether they are a client or not.....because its pretty much free information.

Unless you are privy to specific details on what is there beyond the manual (if anything)....its a big leap to get into the secret and above specifics of such a system.

In comparison do we know anything about Chinese Jin class? No. but they have an idea or broad contours about ours.

Well then next time India ought to develop an SSK totally by itself if its worried about plain jane vanilla manuals floating around in its opponents databases.

I mean thats a main reason the SSBN program is being done indigenously.

 

[Spectre]

I'm sorry but the DCNS vanilla scorpene combat management system has been out there, pretty much open source, every since it was first exported to countries like Malaysia.

Its a very standard document that any RFP would generate. In defence world, thats the very first thing any major country acquires, studies and then puts in a basement to gather dust.....whether they are a client or not.....because its pretty much free information.

Thus the question - Why investigate? Why are each and every party including the French and Indians instead of saying what you are saying are launching audits and investigations to determine the damage caused by leaks?

They are professionals and surely they know more than you - is that a valid assumption to make?

It can't be a dog and pony show - just for appearances sake, no one would launch such a wide scale hunt just for appearances sake. Far easier to dismiss the concerns and we have seen exactly that on many other occasions even when there was no cause for alarm

I mean thats a main reason the SSBN program is being done indigenously.

This is an excellent point you made. Do you ever consider why US does not export Submarines or even Russia and China have several versions which they dont export except to very select few and that too in downgraded and heavily modified specs.

 

[NKVD]

Thus the question - Why investigate? Why are each and every party including the French and Indians instead of saying what you are saying are launching audits and investigations to determine the damage caused by leaks?

They are professionals and surely they know more than you - is that a valid assumption to make?

It can't be a dog and pony show - just for appearances sake, no one would launch such a wide scale hunt just for appearances sake. Far easier to dismiss the concerns and we have seen exactly that on many other occasions even when there was no cause for alarm

Because of amatuer and foolish TRP mongering media and political which hunt

Also there other kind of lobbies involved in this thing which have vested interests

Secondly as for an expert I don't find any real expert comment about this matter that make hype or concern

You should see statement of Ex Navy chief Menon comments and his views on this matter during a debate in NDTV

See how he rebufes validity of this so called leaks

 

[Nilgiri]

Thus the question - Why investigate? Why are each and every party including the French and Indians instead of saying what you are saying are launching audits and investigations to determine the damage caused by leaks?

They are professionals and surely they know more than you - is that a valid assumption to make?

It can't be a dog and pony show - just for appearances sake, no one would launch such a wide scale hunt just for appearances sake. Far easier to dismiss the concerns and we have seen exactly that on many other occasions even when there was no cause for alarm



This is an excellent point you made. Do you ever consider why US does not export Submarines or even Russia and China have several versions which they dont export except to very select few and that too in downgraded and heavily modified specs.

What do you mean why investigate? Its a routine procedure especially when a media accusation has been made. But I am against jumping to conculsions either way....but from what I've seen so far I tend towards it being a manual and possibly some low-level adjuncts. Why would I not believe the MoD over a typical media outlet that has so far been a damp squib on what it claims to have had?

RFP manuals are not that easy to get a hold of. You need to be a major country at least to get access to them through your contacts in other countries that make such RFPs. They are not some free brochure you get at an expo.

But seriously high level document control stuff, that I have a hard time believing that DCNS could have leaked...but it remains to be proven of course.....but nothing so far has shown evidence that it is the case....certainly not this australian media hogwash.

This is an excellent point you made. Do you ever consider why US does not export Submarines or even Russia and China have several versions which they dont export except to very select few and that too in downgraded and heavily modified specs.

Well for the SSK, the MoD would have factored in what any other major country (including opponents) would get access to without much effort (including what I believe to be this leak till it is proven otherwise)....and overall deemed it to be an acceptable trade-off given what could be customised and controlled internally (by developing unique features and building in Indian shipyards under MII etc) and also satisfied with DCNS doc control and safety etc...

Thats what you get when you want a good foreign system quickly and later use the ToT to develop one indigenously from the start yourself.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Spectre @Nilgiri
What IN is really concerned and what it will never say is the proprietary customization it has done in Scorpene. IN will never want anything about those things in any place and no hint in the 22000 pages.

A case in hand is the sonar suit having X more additional arrays which puts S-Cube bang in the middle of S-cube and S-Square. What it also incorporates is some fine points from another system that has gone into our black projects.

Thats why there will be always a Heavily modified blueprint of our subs which we dont want it out there nor about the works we have done. Yes simulations with advanced algorithms can help generate pattern scent in library for future detection , interception as well as compromising the submarine operations. But when you dont have access to proprietary stuff the library generated is technically a blank as its as good as saying sonar is active in 10Hz to 250 Khz range.

Remember there was a open Kilo hull lying with us for a long time..It was used properly and results will be in the new SSKs. And yes thats the chief reason a country which makes submarines of its own or even weapon systems always like to export a downgraded version to safeguard that proprietary changes. In media the technological leap is the crown jewels, in true military parlance its this proprietary stuff which are the crown jewels.

The Scorpene Indian version proprietary works done by DRDO and completed via local MICs (MSME) particularly the sensor, communication, detection, stealth etc is the concern which they wish to investigate and be clear about.

Even the anechoic tiles data is atm not there in any library banks.. In fact rubber and tiles are not even added to present kalavari to actually determine the suppression of noise nor its signature pattern. The tiles itself and its placement is a subject of another secrecy and again its outside the domain of foreign OEM and derives heavily from present fleet sub technology particularly the SSN and amalgamate the learning from French side. In short again the capability is an unknown entity which gives via simulation a wide band of possible numbers but cant help to narrow down the scent to possibilities which may help quicker detection.

if and by a big margin IF , thats ever leaked, its going to be massive blow for us. Yes anyone getting anything with IN emblem is a big issue.. But i fear more of those elements which comes under the proprietary works than anything else.

 

[GuardianRED]

Thus the question - Why investigate? Why are each and every party including the French and Indians instead of saying what you are saying are launching audits and investigations to determine the damage caused by leaks?

They are professionals and surely they know more than you - is that a valid assumption to make?

It can't be a dog and pony show - just for appearances sake, no one would launch such a wide scale hunt just for appearances sake. Far easier to dismiss the concerns and we have seen exactly that on many other occasions even when there was no cause for alarm



This is an excellent point you made. Do you ever consider why US does not export Submarines or even Russia and China have several versions which they dont export except to very select few and that too in downgraded and heavily modified specs.

From you arguments I'm getting the feeling of = "Hang them if they do , hang them if they don't"

The issue u have with the redacted portion , saying that if it was not vital why the MoD mentioned it. Seriously if you think , isn't that the FIRST Q that anyone would asked the MoD and they replied to that.

The Dog and pony show? Ain't u reading the 29 pages of posts on this thread? This can affect more than just a sub program. For Eg In india , additional subs, nuclear programs, other defence contracts etc, for AUS, possible the research program b/w DCNS and UNSW

 

[GURU DUTT]

@Spectre @Nilgiri
What IN is really concerned and what it will never say is the proprietary customization it has done in Scorpene. IN will never want anything about those things in any place and no hint in the 22000 pages.

A case in hand is the sonar suit having X more additional arrays which puts S-Cube bang in the middle of S-cube and S-Square. What it also incorporates is some fine points from another system that has gone into our black projects.

Thats why there will be always a Heavily modified blueprint of our subs which we dont want it out there nor about the works we have done. Yes simulations with advanced algorithms can help generate pattern scent in library for future detection , interception as well as compromising the submarine operations. But when you dont have access to proprietary stuff the library generated is technically a blank as its as good as saying sonar is active in 10Hz to 250 Khz range.

Remember there was a open Kilo hull lying with us for a long time..It was used properly and results will be in the new SSKs. And yes thats the chief reason a country which makes submarines of its own or even weapon systems always like to export a downgraded version to safeguard that proprietary changes. In media the technological leap is the crown jewels, in true military parlance its this proprietary stuff which are the crown jewels.

The Scorpene Indian version proprietary works done by DRDO and completed via local MICs (MSME) particularly the sensor, communication, detection, stealth etc is the concern which they wish to investigate and be clear about.

Even the anechoic tiles data is atm not there in any library banks.. In fact rubber and tiles are not even added to present kalavari to actually determine the suppression of noise nor its signature pattern. The tiles itself and its placement is a subject of another secrecy and again its outside the domain of foreign OEM and derives heavily from present fleet sub technology particularly the SSN and amalgamate the learning from French side. In short again the capability is an unknown entity which gives via simulation a wide band of possible numbers but cant help to narrow down the scent to possibilities which may help quicker detection.

if and by a big margin IF , thats ever leaked, its going to be massive blow for us. Yes anyone getting anything with IN emblem is a big issue.. But i fear more of those elements which comes under the proprietary works than anything else.

thats a great post but my question is how can a news paper do what this australian paper did without consent of french OEM is there no secrecy act since these papers were property of a private company ?

 

[R!CK]

Heres the wrap from Australia and France
+++
Something interesting going on for last 2 days away from the mockery of "news reports"
August 25th

DCNS & @UNSW boost collaboration on research & development #submarines #innovation #ausdef

and

Good to be meeting with @theamwu today to discuss how to develop the workforce to build 12 #submarines in #Adelaide

AMWU - Australia Manufacturers Workers Union

Source: https://twitter.com/DCNSAustralia

So In Australia its biz as normal and no one cared for the so called "leaks" and proceeded like normal...

Did not i say The newspaper and leaks were using Indian Scorpenes as the excuse to score brownie points..

+++
A complaint against X was filed Thursday in Paris by the French shipbuilder DCNS for breach of trust, receiving stolen property and accessory after the massive leak of confidential technical information on its Scorpene submarines, have we learned from source judiciary.

The complaint is examined by the prosecutor, who will decide whether to open a preliminary investigation, to entrust the investigation to the investigating judges or take no action.

Source: http://www.20minutes.fr/economie/19...-plainte-contre-x-apres-fuite-massive-donnees

+++

Scorpene: what is the real value of the leaked documents?

The leak of a technical document 22,400 pages on Scorpene submarines sold by DCNS India causes a storm in the French industrial and among its customers, particularly in India and Australia. However, the real value of the disseminated data to be defined. According to two experts interviewed by the sea , it could be in fact a minor.

One of the key elements of the next few days will be to accurately determine the value of the document, the Australian daily The Australian revealed the leak, in an article published on August 24 in the morning, that is to say in the middle of the night in Paris.

So, The Australian announced he could consult a document describing the technical characteristics of Scorpene submarines of 22 400 pages. A considerable amount equivalent to 16 times Fighting Fleets .To support his point, The Australian details the contents, pagination chapters, discusses some technical aspects described and published a dozen pages with some specific data printed were masked at the initiative of the newspaper.


What content?

Remains to know who is the author of the leak, which was the addressee, but especially that it contains exactly. Which could help contain the fire which was immediately declared in Bombay and Canberra.

In India, the procedure for three months to the first sea trials of the first of six submarines whose plans are now in nature, new spearhead of the Indian sub-marinade compete with his Pakistani neighbors (also equipped DCNS, but with an earlier generation of submarines Agosta) and especially Chinese. A series of six vessels under construction in Mumbai with French assistance (and four years late), for a contract of $ 3.9 billion, an follow on being more under negotiation. It is perhaps the first target of mischief.

flipping can

In Canberra, was selected on April 26, the supply of DCNS to carry, Australia, 12 derivatives submarines, diesel-electric version of the Barracuda French nuclear submarine. A giant contract that spans 25 years and 50 billion Australian dollars, or 34 billion euros, of which 8 billion euros to DCNS.But at this stage, we are still in exclusive negotiations. Firm contracts have yet to be negotiated. In fact, a reversal is possible.

Several French intelligence services were missioned on the case. And at DCNS is one of the priorities of the moment, which will much better, if any, to reassure customers (Chile and Malaysia, the Scorpene already sailing, India, Australia) and prospects (Norway , Poland).

If we judge by the excerpts posted by The Australian , few, the document seems to be the instruction manual or the general presentation leaflet.

"P as particularly sensitive"

Documents of this type, a priori made jointly by industrial and marine user can move through many hands: crews, technicians and subcontractors. Some data and measures are mentioned (but have been hidden by the newspaper). Different patterns of equipment are presented, eg bow sonar, one of the secrets that are equipment. That said, a diagram does not give the performance of sonar.

The sailor interviewed two experts. Both of them had access to what was posted online by The Australian , that is to say only a few pages. "It is certainly not immune to the presence of data really classified crept into the ground. But unless that is the case, the type of document submitted does not seem particularly sensitive " , says one of our sources.

Another expert believes that "what one discovers contains nothing that is truly protected in any case nothing is objectively known to anyone with some curiosity on the subject. The attached documents are synthetic and curves third octave (note: presented to illustrate the ship radiated noise) express nothing strictly secret. The device descriptions are generic. It must also consider that the document is dated and nothing says that it is not technically further. "

The fact that electromagnetic, magnetic and infrared characteristics of the submarine are described"not enough to allow the detection of a submarine" . Torpedo launch systems are considered"known" , and "for the conditions of use periscopes" .

Source: http://www.lemarin.fr/secteurs-acti...-quelle-reelle-valeur-des-documents-divulgues

+++
DCNS: "data leaks" on the subs are they serious?
BRUNO TREVIDIC ALAIN RUELLO 24/08 16:14Updated at 18:34

The documents released by an Australian newspaper on French submarines DCNS sold to India would not be classified "confidential defense" and the data disclosed not so sensitive as that.

Disclosure of major defense secrets involving national security or simple commercial low blow aimed at undermining the reputation of a player in the French defense industry? The question remains after the publication by the newspaper "The Australian" of various documents detailing the characteristics technical Scorpene type submarines sold by the French DCNS India.

According to the Australian newspaper, the mass flight of "secret documents" , which represent a total of over 22,400 pages - the origin of which is naturally not unveiled - expose to light the secrets of a "bestseller "DNCS and of future flagship of the Indian navy, the first of six copies, made in India, due to enter service in the coming months. The level of underwater noise emissions, the range and depth, its magnetic signature and electronic magnetic, would be well detailed in detail in these documents, including "The Australian" published excerpts on its website.

The "contract of the century" challenged?
What cause concern not only among Indian customers Scorpene, but also among the other clients of the French shipbuilder, chief among them the Australian navy. In April, Australia had indeed chosen the latest DCNS, the Barracuda to renew its fleet of submarines. A market worth 34.5 billion euros over twenty years, presented as the deal of the century for DCNS , but still to be finalized by the end of the year or early 2017, according to a source close to the matter .
These commercial papers, which are not confidential within the meaning of secret defense. Suffice to say that these revelations fall at the worst time for DCNS, while the French company is engaged in the phase of final negotiations of the various contracts of this vast project. And although the Barracuda chosen by Australia has very little to do with Indian Scorpene, it does not need more to the Australian newspaper said that the leaks could jeopardize the choice of Barracuda.

Commercial documents
A finding an excessive nothing. Not only future Barracuda Australian offer much better performance than the Scorpene, but their weapons systems and much of their equipment will be totally different because they will be supplied by US companies.

Moreover, the documents revealed by "The Australian" perhaps are not as secret as the newspaper says. The few online documents are apparently extracts from technical manuals provided by manufacturers, DCNS and Thales, in Indian customer, Restricted, as reported on the "restricted" information set in the header, but it is not classified documents in the French defense official typology.

During pre-investigation
The Ministry of Defence distinguishes indeed 5 level of confidentiality, "restricted", "confidential defense", "confidential defense France Special", "secret" and "top secret defense". But the documents presented on the site even not fit in the first category. "These are commercial documents, which have not confidential within the meaning of defense secret" , says one military source French.

remains to verify that all documents sent to the Australian newspaper are the same barrel. This is probably the subject of the ongoing investigation, mentioned by the spokesman of DCNS and Thales to explain the absence of official statements. But Wednesday morning, no one was able to identify who among the security services, was in charge of this investigation. And, according to our information, no complaints or judicial investigation has been initiated, thus leaving casts further doubt on the seriousness of the damage suffered.

Australian and Indian authorities temper
Despite the emotion aroused by the case, the consequences could be ultimately very limited. As of Wednesday morning, the Australian authorities also claimed that these "revelations" in no way call into question the continuation of the ongoing negotiations with DCNS. As for the Indian Defence Minister, while announcing the launch of an investigation, he told an Indian television that disclosed data would "not important" , adding that the construction of Scorpene submarines in India would continue normally.


Source: http://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-se...les-sous-marins-sont-elles-graves-2022552.php
+++

Biggest takeaway

The Ministry of Defence distinguishes indeed 5 level of confidentiality,

1. 
   
   
   • "restricted",
   • "confidential defense",
   • "confidential defense France Special",
   • "secret" and
   • "top secret defense".

But the documents presented on the site even not fit in the first category. "These are commercial documents, which have not confidential within the meaning of defense secret" , says one military source French.

and

The fact that electromagnetic, magnetic and infrared characteristics of the submarine are described"not enough to allow the detection of a submarine" . Torpedo launch systems are considered"known" , and "for the conditions of use periscopes" .

@Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @zebra7 @GuardianRED @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @R!CK @hellfire @Techy @BON PLAN

Appreciate your efforts to clear the misunderstanding of general public. Just to add to that and repeat what I've previously stated, every safety related equipment in military/civil applications contains several 1000s of sensitive documents. I myself go through restricted documents or manuals on a daily basis and I can assure you guys that not all documents contain the same level of sensitivity.

In French system, Restricted is the lowest of classification for documents. These documents are infact accessible to several 100 if not 1000s of people who related to the scorpene projects across all its customer countries. These documents usually contain general information of components and sometimes instructions on its operations/maintenance. I am pretty confident that such documents can always be stolen by staff from anywhere, whether its DCNS or MDL or even TKM. While i condemn the fact that someone actually took it to the public, I want people to realize that its not as sensitive as you deem it to be.

On a side note for everyone losing sleep over it, The Chinese have the exact same data of Kilo submarines given to them by Russians while they procured their submarines. So how many people here says we should scrap all our Kilos or cancel plans for future procurement. Similarly; The Malaysians Brazilians and all future customers of Scorpenes will be provided with such general information of the equipment and due to the similarity of equipment, the data will be somewhat similar. This is exactly why such data is classified as Restricted (the lowest security level).

Please don't think I am downplaying the seriousness of the issue. This is a breach of contract regardless of how small the relevance of data lost is. But I commend the present MOD for not acting like previous regime which would cancel all deals with DCNS even before an investigation. This is a big deal for the country and patience is important. We still need to understand if the person had access to documents of higher security levels and if anything of such importance was stolen.

P.S: Please don't think that 22,500 lost directly translates into all sensitive data of the submarine. People in the field knows, a very very small component which is the size of tennis ball sometimes have manuals that fills up several hundred pages. A submarine has documents/manuals that fills up several hundred thousands of pages and with varying levels of importance. Please be patient before going gaga over the issue and going all anti-France. Time will tell us more and our MOD will make decisions accordingly.

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @anant_s
@Ankit Kumar 002 [USER=172146]@zebra7 @GuardianRED @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @hellfire @Techy @BON PLAN

Good Day all![/USER]

 

[PARIKRAMA]

thats a great post but my question is how can a news paper do what this australian paper did without consent of french OEM is there no secrecy act since these papers were property of a private company ?

Thats why the first step taken is to declare it stolen and file a case in front of the judiciary. here

https://defence.pk/threads/sensitiv...submarines-leaked.445677/page-28#post-8615870

Restricted is first level of authorization and it does not involve the The Australian newspaper.

Even if they claim its for public service, The French authorities as well as Australian authorities will find some legal point to take them to task. Its a common practice.

In case the officer who stole the data reveals whom he sold the data and the trail gets established and it becomes clear that newspaper "bought" the data for "X" dollars, it may get entangled in economic espionage and theft of military data witrh unauthorized access and publication without consent.

Take it from me, DCNS will pursue a case due to reputation loss and DCNS is French government owned, so French government will pursue the case also to ensure they regain some credibility as well

 

[Nilgiri]

What IN is really concerned and what it will never say is the proprietary customization it has done in Scorpene. IN will never want anything about those things in any place and no hint in the 22000 pages.

Yes completely agree

This would be a segregated document control from DCNS to begin with (pretty standard procedure - I remember way back in university doing PhD I came across just how segregated it is even within NATO partner countries like Canada/US).

India would not have allowed DCNS to keep any of this in its own database (esp end verification/validation/calibration data)....though I still believe DCNS has not had a high order breach of its own doc control (for vanilla scorpene)...though this remains to be proven. We need more time for the final conclusions on the matter....there is still a cpl slim chances I see that may need retrofitting/counter-counters etc Some of these I actually thought of and may actually be an advantage for India since it would negate potential top level data the enemy has....and that may be decisive in a conflict if the enemy over-relies on what it feels is highest quality top secret data etc...

Which made me reach the natural possibility ( really putting on my tin foil hat here)....what if this leak was done on purpose by DCNS/India way at the root.....its not the first time I've heard about such in the defense world....esp with a new semi-cold war looming.

Its a large dank world in the defense sphere I am afraid.....I really can't take anything to be the 100% truth....least of all the media crap.

We still need to understand if the person had access to documents of higher security levels and if anything of such importance was stolen.

Yes this is the major point of the investigation I believe @Spectre