Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked

[GuardianRED]

Didn't make that argument but are you suggesting that we should just pretend that nothing happened? The follow on is definitely a big question mark until the situation becomes clearer.

No one is pretending that nothing has happened. BUT to assume that something HAS HAPPENED and go on a blacklisting and cancelling spree is being Mad King (GoT reference) there other ways once the situation is clearer

 

[Hellfire]

Shiv Aroor is our very own windy's brother, that is what he is. I had an interaction with him on his blogs about 7-8 years back when he was literally crying over T-90 induction. His facts were off .... best let him rant.

 

[ashok321]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...submarines-data-leak/articleshow/53854290.cms

NEW DELHI: The government has ordered an inquiry into a massive leak of documents relating to combat capabilities of India's under-construction stealth Scorpene submarines that has raised fears of a major security breach of the underwater fleet.

The leak -reported on Wednesday by 'The Australian' newspaper -was discussed by the cabinet committee on security where defence minister Manohar Parrikar briefedPM Modi and other CCS members. The $3.9 billion project is one of the largest deals in the world.

The assessment in government is that while implications of the leak need to be thoroughly examined, the data was written in 2011 with several specifications altered since then and the documents may not constitute as big a security concern as seemed the case when reports of the leak surfaced.

Reporting the leak of documents titled "Restricted Scorpene India" running to 22,400 pages, 'The Australian' said: "The documents detail the most sensitive combat capabilities of India's new submarine fleet and would provide an intelligence bonanza if obtained by strategic rivals like Pakistan and China." French firm DCNS, which is making the stealth submarines jointly with India, said the leak of documents is "a serious matter pertaining to the Indian Scorpene programme".French authorities for defence security will investigate and determine the exact nature of the leaked documents, the manufacturer said.
Reports said the leaked data includes stealth capabilities of the Scorpene submarines, frequencies at which intelligence is gathered, noise levels at various speeds, diving depths, range and endurance, magnetic and electro-magnetic data, propeller noise, speed conditions for periscope use and torpedo launches.

Report of `The Australian' suggests a former French naval officer working as a sub-contractor for the DCNS might be behind the leak of data which were written in France in 2011. The French firm initially suggested the leak might be at the Indian end, saying it supplies but does not control access to technical data. But DCNS's plans to sell frigates to Chile and an amphibious ship to Russia are also part of the leaks and are not connected to India's Scorpene deal.

The report claimed the leak details the "entire secret combat capability of the six Scorpene-class submarines". Indian officers, however, claimed the leak will not have a major adverse impact on the operational deploy ment of the diesel-electric vessels by India. "I have asked the Navy chief to study the entire issue. There has been a hacking," defence minister Manohar Parrikar said. The Navy said the leaks seem to happened from an overseas destination.

Information linked to class and type of submarine and its manufacturer is likely to be available with rival navies but leak of details regarding operational frequencies and the electromagnetic "signature" of the subma rines is a concern.

The leak immediately grabbed global attention as a variant of the Scorpene is used by navies of Malaysia, Chile and Brazil and DCNS has just won a major contract to supply its new range of Shortfin Barracuda submarines to Australia.

The data is believed to have reached a company in south-east Asia involved in a commercial venture by a regional navy and was passed through two parties before being sent on a data disk by mail to a firm in Australia.

The sea trials of the Indian submarines have been on since May and the project is behind schedule. The stealth technology will give Indian Navy an edge in the Indian Ocean region as it can collect intelligence and detect military movements.

Though Parrikar said he does not suspect the leak to be 100%, as much of the final integration will be according to Indian specifications -indicating that some parameters can be altered.

 

[Indrajit]

Are theere? What have they been charged with?

Correction. Convicted of bribery In the Indian deal but not jailed pending appeal in Italian Supreme Court. An earlier post of mine in this thread has the details.

No one is pretending that nothing has happened. BUT to assume that something HAS HAPPENED and go on a blacklisting and cancelling spree is being Mad King (GoT reference) there other ways once the situation is clearer

Something has happened, that much we know. The extent of damage is unknown at this point. Whether blacklisting or cancellation is warranted is not something that we can know, certainly at this point. There could be many ways around this (as you suggest) that might become available once the dust settles down but DCNS has plenty to answer for and any follow on orders must await a thorough investigation

It's far too early to be making such claims. Now I do doubt some claims that all that was leaked was effectively a fleshed out "brochure" but I also know that it is nonsense to suggest that some of the most critical parameters of India's Scorpenes are known to others when their own user (IN) hasn't recorded them as of yet. The truth exists somewhere in the middle.

Having said that, I am not willing to write off DCNS just yet, a lot depends on what happens next (DCNS/Franch govt tackling/prosecution of these leaks) and the steps DCNS takes to recover its damaged reputation. I don't see the fact that FAR more sensitive details were hacked by the Chinese from Lockhead Martin about the F-35 factoring into the minds of many when they prescribe India looking at that white elephant or when looking at India's dealings with LM as an OEM.

Not early at all. You suggested media/perception war and I pointed out that DCNS is the reason we are in this mess now. What bothers me more is their reaction to the leak where they went out of their way to downplay any effect on the Australian deal while remaining seemingly unconcerned with the primary victim, i.e. India. Granted the Australian contract is a super prize but DCNS behaviour was a big put off considering that they are the reason for this problem. You may be fine with that attitude, I'm not.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Correction. Convicted of bribery In the Indian deal but not jailed pending appeal in Italian Supreme Court. An earlier post of mine in this thread has the details.

And who did they pay bribes to?

This is a lot like the so-called "TATRA truck scam", a lot of fuss was made many talking heads had their say, TATRA was blacklisted as investigatons were launched. A few years later the CBI closes the investigation for a complete lack of evidence that any wrongdoing was actually commited and the Indian Military that has had to wait years for such vehicles (being forced to cannibalize parts of their fleet in the interim) can once again start purchasing TATRA trucks again.

It's a nothing but a political circus at this point (in both nations) but it is still unclear as to what wrongdoing is even being suggested (bribary is a very broad term). It would be pretty absurd to suggest that Augusta Westland couldn't compete on equal footing and that the AW-101 wasn't the best machine in the race (for that role), even the US had selected this a/c for transporting their President. Why would bribes be paid and to whom when each procurement goes through multiple layers of scrutiny by both military and civilian experts. There is no single (or limited number) induvidual who can actually ensure that a certain product is procured- not even the ACM (who has been accused very bizzarly).

 

[A_Poster]

Something has happened, that much we know. The extent of damage is unknown at this point. Whether blacklisting or cancellation is warranted is not something that we can know, certainly at this point. There could be many ways around this (as you suggest) that might become available once the dust settles down but DCNS has plenty to answer for and any follow on orders must await a thorough investigation

Even if everything has leaked, it would be imprudent to cancel these subs.

If these has been substantial leak (extent of which no one know at this point), it would be a wiser decision to modify under-construction submarines.

No one is pretending that nothing has happened. BUT to assume that something HAS HAPPENED and go on a blacklisting and cancelling spree is being Mad King (GoT reference) there other ways once the situation is clearer

+1

Though neither DCNS nor GoI assurances mean much in current scenario as they are reading from PR playbook atm. They would always say that "leak is not substantial"/"only manuals have leaked" and would take ameliorative actions in private.

Acoustic signature are different from different subs

Like Harley Davidson engine each have different patterns of noises

Without sea trials no one can asses what is actual acoustic signature of subs has

I don't how can one leak acoustic signature details of unconstructed Subs

Yes, but the similarity between two subs of same model would be much higher than similarity between sub of two different models. So in theory, if acoustic signature of a scorpene sub is obtained, a band in which most scorpene subs would be emitting could be guessed.

Also remember that this data has and its leaker has made a trip to SE Asia, and SE Asians are more corrupt than us Indians.

 

[Indrajit]

And who did they pay bribes to?

Irrelevant to the Italian case. The Italian authorities were concerned that bribes were paid, investigated, found that bribes had been paid, convicted the gentlemen concerned & also fined them substantially. The TATRA truck issue was an internal issue with the CoAS taking a position. Can't dismiss the serving CoAS's statement that easily. This case involves a foreign court convicting Italian official of Finmeccanica for bribery. No way for any Indian government to get past that. Period.

 

[Abingdonboy]

What bothers me more is their reaction to the leak where they went out of their way to downplay any effect on the Australian deal while remaining seemingly unconcerned with the primary victim, i.e. India. Granted the Australian contract is a super prize but DCNS behaviour was a big put off considering that they are the reason for this problem. You may be fine with that attitude, I'm not.

Given that Australia was clearly the intended victim and that these claims were published by an Australian media outlet I can understand why DCNS would focus on the Australian angle.

The Indian/IN-France/DCNS relationship is VERY different and it makes sense that the Indian angle would be handled behind the scenes between all parties.

Irrelevant to the Italian case

Really? And you think that's how the law works? That part of a scuccesful prosecution isn't proving wrongdoing beyond a reasonable doubt that would naturally include the party being bribed.

It's like saying someone has been convicted of murder but we don't know who they killed, that is an irrelevent detail. In fact that is CENTRAL to case.

I will reiterate, 5 years down the line and the only thing to have come out of this are a fleet of birds that Indian taxpayers have already paid for sat idle and u/s at Palam airport.

Whatever has happened in Italy seems more about their internal politics and the complex and fearful Indian system was an easy target.

 

[ashok321]

http://post.jagran.com/data-in-the-...no-need-for-alarm-says-indian-navy-1472096000

Data In The Leaked Report Hypothetical, No Need For Alarm, Says Indian Navy

The Data Does Not Pertain To Any Of The Scorpene Submarines Currently Being Built In Mazgaon Docks:

Navy sources, meanwhile, maintained there is nothing to be alarmed about as the data does not pertain to any of the Scorpene submarines currently being built in Mazgaon Docks, Mumbai."Details in the leaked documents regarding the Scorpene submarine are not valid because the signature can be known only once the boat goes out to the seas," a navy source said, adding the specifications mentioned in the document are hypothetical.

10 Facts To Know About India's Scorpene Submarine

"How can we know the signature of the boat which is still not done with the trials. The technical and operational details will be written by how we exploit the submarine. So far, even the weapon systems and torpedo are not there."The navy, nonetheless, held the leak is an issue of concern."The documents should not have been leaked, but there is nothing to be alarmed about," said the source. DCNS, two-thirds owned by the French government, said a probe will be carried out to determine the exact nature of the leaked papers, potential damage to the company and customers and responsibilities for this leak.

The Australian media reports, quoting DCNS, said that the leak of such technical data could not happen with its submarine proposed for Australia. The French company also alluded that the leak may have occurred at India, rather than from France. DCNS this year signed a contract with Australia for the manufacture of 12 submarines. The first of the Scorpene-class submarines being built in India, Kalvari, went for sea trials in May and is expected to be inducted in the Indian Navy by this year-end.Officials said the other six submarines, in different stages of construction, will be inducted subsequently at intervals of nine months each. The variants of the Scorpene submarine are used by Malaysia and Chile, and Brazil is soon to join the club.

GOOD NEWS:

 

[Indrajit]

Given that Australia was clearly the intended victim and that these claims were published by an Australian media outlet I can understand why DCNS would focus on the Australian angle.

Australia might have been the intended target, India was the victim.

The Indian/IN-France/DCNS relationship is VERY different and it makes sense that the Indian angle would be handled behind the scenes between all parties.

Different, not different.....can't handle such a scandal only behind the scenes. Has to be done both there & upfront.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

France's DCNS says India submarine data leak may be 'economic warfare'

By Matt Siegel and John Irish | SYDNEY/PARIS

French naval contractor DCNS said on Wednesday it may have been the victim of "economic warfare" after secrets about its Scorpene submarines being built in India were leaked.

India opened an investigation after The Australian newspaper published documents relating to the submarine's combat capabilities, raising concerns over another major contract with Australia.

The leak contains more than 22,000 pages outlining the details of six submarines that DCNS has designed for the Indian Navy.

"I understand there has been a case of hacking," Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told reporters. "We will find out what has happened."

The submarines are being built at a state-run shipyard in Mumbai and the first one was expected to go into service by the end of the year, the first step in the Indian navy's effort to rebuild its dwindling fleet.

The leak has raised doubts about the security of DCNS's submarine project in Australia where it is locked in exclusive negotiations after seeing off rivals for a A$50 billion ($38 billion) contract to build the Barracuda next generation of submarines.

DCNS, which is 35 percent owned by Thales (TCFP.PA), said it was working to determine if any harm had been caused to clients with a view to drawing up an action plan.

Asked if the leak could affect other contracts, a company spokeswoman said it had come against a difficult commercial backdrop and that corporate espionage could be to blame.

"Competition is getting tougher and tougher, and all means can be used in this context," she said. "There is India, Australia and other prospects, and other countries could raise legitimate questions over DCNS. It's part of the tools in economic warfare."

DCNS, which is also vying for submarine contracts in Norway and Poland, beat Germany's ThyssenKrupp AG (TKAG.DE) and a Japanese-government backed bid by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (7011.T) and Kawasaki Heavy Industries (7012.T) in Australia.

That was a major blow to Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's push to develop defense export capabilities as part of a more muscular security agenda.

The leaked documents cover the Scorpene-class model and do not contain any details of the vessel currently being designed for the Australian fleet.

Thales (TCFP.PA), whose shares fell 3 percent before paring back some of the losses, declined to comment.

French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian, who finalised the Australian deal, also declined to comment.


MAJOR STRATEGIC PROBLEM

The breadth of detail in the documents creates a strategic problem for India, Malaysia and Chile, all of which operate the same submarine, an Australian political source with decades of experience in the global arms industry told Reuters.

Excerpts published in redacted form on the newspaper's website contained highly sensitive details of the submarine including technical manuals and models of the boat's antennae.

RELATED COVERAGE

• VIDEOMassive data leak hits French submarine maker
• VIDEOMassive data leak hits French submarine maker
• Source of submarine document leak 'from overseas': Indian defense ministry

"If it's 22,400 pages, it's a major stuff-up," the source said. "It's a huge deal.

"It allows them to understand everything about the submarines. What speeds it can do; how noisy it is; what speeds the mast can be raised at ... all of that is just devastating."

A French source close to the matter tried to play down the severity of the leak, saying the documents appeared to be "sensitive but neither critical nor confidential".

The Indian Defence Ministry said in a statement it was investigating the impact of the leak on the submarine program which it said had occurred from abroad. It gave no details.

Uday Bhaskar, a former naval officer, said that if the leak was established, it would amount to a significant compromise of the credibility of the submarines.

India has a fleet of 13 aging submarines, only half of which are operational at any time, opening up a gap with China which is expanding its maritime presence in the Indian Ocean.

Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull sought to deflect concern about the leak, touting the high security standards in Australia, where the submarine will be built. The Australian reported that the leak occurred in France in 2011.

"But clearly, it is a reminder that, particularly in this digital world, cyber security is of critical importance," he told the Seven TV network.


(Additional reporting by Gwénaëlle Barzic in Paris, Michel Rose and John Irish; Editing by Richard Lough and David Stamp)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-submarines-india-australia-idUSKCN10Z04G

Parrikar is burning...Now who lives in hell !!! ...A defense minister who is famous for trash talk can't even make sure DCNS to keep his secrets safe...

He and his RSS thugs should pray for two things now...

1) May Pakistan never gets his hands on those more than 20k pages.
2)May those leaks are not that significant that lead to give major advantage to Pakistan.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Different, not different.....can't handle such a scandal only behind the scenes. Has to be done both there & upfront.

Actually, this is the ONLY way sensible and mature nations/sides handle these things. Having a public discussion on these matters and airing one's dirty laundry is only going to be counter intuative.

1) May Pakistan never gets his hands on those more than 20k pages.

Even if Pakistan can gain such materials they would not ammount to much for the reasons outlined in the previous pages.

2)May those leaks are not that significant that lead to give major advantage to Pakistan.

As stated above, this is impossible.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

But, even if Acoustic signature of vanilla submarines from archives is leaked, would it not narrow down the range in which enemy would have to look. I mean acoustic signature of modified Indian submarine could not be widely different from a plain scorpene submarine.

@PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri @Ankit Kumar 002

Though on positive side, if your enemy has knowledge about the band in which your unfinished submarine would be emitting, small changes in under-construction submarine could actually make the information with enemy, counterproductive for him.

Hint , it differed greatly with change in temperature. And the likely data leaked would be about the operations of Chilean Navy Scorpenes in relatively colder areas.

Acoustic signature is one of the least important things here to worry about.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Even if Pakistan can gain such materials they would not ammount to much for the reasons outlined in the previous pages.

As stated above, this is impossible.

We love impossible........Pakistanis will b die of laughter and happiness if they got some real classified info from that...This is beyond repair, now. Even slightest and little importance detail of such huge project, involving so many countries and high tech....Intelligence agencies of every mothafuka country must b dying to get its hands on that leaks....like Pakistan, Germany, China, Japan, US, heck every intelligence agency will be trying its best to get their hands on that specific details...

Anyway....This may become the biggest scandal...I find it quite interesting how IN handles her things....Blasting own subs while sitting in docks and then this....

 

[Indrajit]

Really? And you think that's how the law works? That part of a scuccesful prosecution isn't proving wrongdoing beyond a reasonable doubt that would naturally include the party being bribed.

It's like saying someone has been convicted of murder but we don't know who they killed, that is an irrelevent detail. In fact that is CENTRAL to case.

Considering that a prosecution was successfully carried out in Italy, maybe you should teach them how the law works according to you. Unlike you, I go by what exists on the ground, not what conspiracy theory might have put them there. A little idea of jurisdiction might inform you why who the bribe was given to was not relevant to the case in Italy.

What did you expect the Indian government to argue? Not only that they can't get hold of the bribe takers but that the Italians have jailed some innocent people for no reason at all to dent an important company of theirs, merely to play politics? Ya, that will fly....Finmeccanica, the company has reached a settlement with the prosecution. Do you want GoI to make an argument of innocence on behalf of a company that has admitted guilt ?