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Selling a civil war to Pakistan

Zyxius

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The world was laughing at the Americans when they were changing the name of French Fries to Freedom Fries. Can you believe their Congress actually met and passed a resolution to this effect?! This is while the President who ran on promises of health care, and Congress, didn’t even bother to hold a single vote on the issue. The media cheered them along and all the Americans were a bunch of dumb flag waivers. “Support the troops, Support our boys who defend this nation” was the slogan constantly rubbed in the face on anyone who dared to question the trend or anything the US President said.

Most Americans don’t know that their government actually hired the Rendon Group, a company that specializes in the business of “perception management”….or in more truthful words, propaganda...or more truthful words still….making fools out of the public by telling half truths and outright lies to them.

Today only the most ardent deniers of the truth still say that Bush and the government DID NOT falsify the case for the Iraq War. What was the media doing? They were encouraging Americans to pour their French wines down the gutters in a display of anti French sentiment simply because they dared to question the American government’s policy. They flared sentiment against anyone who dared to question, not even sparing the Dixie Chicks who are now taboo’d from appearing on most of the mainstream media. Lest we forget, “embedded journalists” was a new term coined to gloss over the fact that reporters were now not even going to bother getting the story from anywhere else except the Good guys [Americans]. They refuse to show American troops dead because “its News, not reality TV”. Wow!! What stunning logic and what a bunch of idiots who swallow this ****.

And while everyone was focused on the enemy and the War and engaging in the “Support the troops” campaigns, their government stripped the country of Habeus Corpus and other key elements of the Magna Carta that are the basis of Western civilization……the media response? Dead silence……..except for the occasional aberrant who may get the chance to say it once on TV, nobody and I mean nobody is discussing how eerily reminiscent this was of Hitler’s rise to power from an unpopular leader to the unchallenged dictator after the convenient burning of the Reichstag (Parliament) Building. Hmmmmmm……could it be that events, particularly wars and disasters have been exploited by leaders? NO WAY!! (Sarcasm)

All of the above has basically led to the stripping of the constitution, break down of law and order, elimination of the system of checks and balances, and basically a blank check being handed over to the government to conduct whatever it needs to do secretly in the name of National Security whether that be kidnapping, murder, bombing civilians, declaring war on other nations, spending money faster than anyone in history and maxing out the country’s credit, etc. Everything breaks down when the foundations of civilization that have developed over time are just swept away in hysteria. Today the American dollar has fallen more than 45% since Bush took office, the country’s debt has become its biggest nightmare, and the status of America in the world has been totally annihilated.
Coming to Pakistan, I think only a fool would think that our politicians, media people and “opinion leaders” are any better than the scum of the Earth that I have described above, i.e. Western politicians, media and opinion makers.

Geo’s “King breaker” Mir Khalilur Rehman is well known for making bold and public statements about his ability to topple any government of Pakistan within a certain number of hours. That is a very mighty boast about his influence on the masses. Their policy is clearly to create viewership through emotion and controversy among the masses.

The owner of Daily Times/ Business Plus, Salman Taseer, is an admitted PPP “jiyala”. During the MQM reign his media outfit purposely completely abstained from ever criticizing them or even whispering Altaf’s name in a bad way. They are scared to death of saying anything about The Don of Karachi, Altaf bhai….mazloomo ka saathi….Altaf Hussain! The fact that he owns a media outfit, is a politician, and one of the country’s biggest businessmen has only raised eyebrows with a few who still bother to use the gray matter between their ears. Mr Taseer promoted Callmate and other companies of his own through this channel. Callmate Telips later went lost billions of rupees of investor money. Notice that First Capital Equity Securities is regularly advertised on Mr Taseer’s media outfits? That’s because he owns that company.

ARY boss Abdul Razzak Yaqub specifically fired Dr Shahid Masood because his criticisms were affecting Mr Yaqub’s business and he didn’t want to irk Mushy boy when so much dough was rolling in. The guy sold real estate, gold, calling cards, groceries and pretty much everything through that channel. Notice that most of those businesses being advertised on his channel were his own companies, i.e. ARY Gold, ARY Calling Cards, ARY Real Estate, etc. Clearly the channel is just a loss leading business he uses to sell other stuff…..do not expect lofty ideals such as journalistic integrity and the right of the public to the truth to be accommodated in this free-for-all economy.

You simply cannot expect our Pakistani media to be respecting any sort of lofty ideals, it has, in my opinion, been conclusively proven that that is simply not the nature of the Pakistani ruling class. If anything, our media are probably much bigger liars than even Hannity and Combs or that racist loud mouth idiot, O’Reilly.

I have noticed that people give too much credit to these institutions that have proven to be failures in the shiniest of shiny capitals, Washington. The answer is for the public to always be willing to question and not just accept whatever we are told, especially when historic things are taking place. We should never be willing to compromise on the checks and balances that prevent the powerful from making fools of the public. These checks and balances include bringing people to court for crimes rather than allowing the government to carry out military operations within its own territory, or rendering [kidnapping] people and making them disappear. Those who resist arrest can obviously be dealt with force, but unless everyone and their uncle knows that we do not disappear people and we will deal with them justly, they will have reason to distrust us and to fight. They are probably also being exploited and lied to by their own media and leadership and the only way to fight lies is with openness and truth.

Our government has admitted to kidnapping people and making them disappear. They have admitted to torturing people. They have admitted to massive civilian casualties in bombing raids IN THEIR OWN TERRITORY! Yet, so much of our public is marching along in giving them more blank checks to carry out yet more of the same as a solution to the ills caused by these tactics.

For whatever reason, powerful interests that have yet to be fully identified are very keen for Pakistan to declare war on its own citizens and to steadily expand that initial war into some climatic event. Once we agree to abandon the checks and balances, due process, and truthfulness in this operation, it will be expanded into an endless War on Terror operation that will benefit a few at the expense of the many and those checks and balances will be gone forever and replaced with only a façade of civility.

When they came for the Muhajir, I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t a Muhajir. When they came for Baloch nationalists, I said nothing because I wasn’t a Baloch. When they came for Pashtun tribesmen, I said nothing because I wasn’t a Pashtun tribesman. When they came for the Mullah I said nothing because I wasn’t a Mullah. And when they came for me, there was nobody left to speak up.

We will in effect become a secret police state in which terror and counter terror become the norm. Make no mistake about it, we have been sold a civil war in Pakistan and we have swallowed the bait hook line and sinker. We will all pay for this dearly.
 
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The world was laughing at the Americans when they were changing the name of French Fries to Freedom Fries. Can you believe their Congress actually met and passed a resolution to this effect?! This is while the President who ran on promises of health care, and Congress, didn’t even bother to hold a single vote on the issue. The media cheered them along and all the Americans were a bunch of dumb flag waivers. “Support the troops, Support our boys who defend this nation” was the slogan constantly rubbed in the face on anyone who dared to question the trend or anything the US President said.

Most Americans don’t know that their government actually hired the Rendon Group, a company that specializes in the business of “perception management”….or in more truthful words, propaganda...or more truthful words still….making fools out of the public by telling half truths and outright lies to them.

Today only the most ardent deniers of the truth still say that Bush and the government DID NOT falsify the case for the Iraq War. What was the media doing? They were encouraging Americans to pour their French wines down the gutters in a display of anti French sentiment simply because they dared to question the American government’s policy. They flared sentiment against anyone who dared to question, not even sparing the Dixie Chicks who are now taboo’d from appearing on most of the mainstream media. Lest we forget, “embedded journalists” was a new term coined to gloss over the fact that reporters were now not even going to bother getting the story from anywhere else except the Good guys [Americans]. They refuse to show American troops dead because “its News, not reality TV”. Wow!! What stunning logic and what a bunch of idiots who swallow this ****.

And while everyone was focused on the enemy and the War and engaging in the “Support the troops” campaigns, their government stripped the country of Habeus Corpus and other key elements of the Magna Carta that are the basis of Western civilization……the media response? Dead silence……..except for the occasional aberrant who may get the chance to say it once on TV, nobody and I mean nobody is discussing how eerily reminiscent this was of Hitler’s rise to power from an unpopular leader to the unchallenged dictator after the convenient burning of the Reichstag (Parliament) Building. Hmmmmmm……could it be that events, particularly wars and disasters have been exploited by leaders? NO WAY!! (Sarcasm)

All of the above has basically led to the stripping of the constitution, break down of law and order, elimination of the system of checks and balances, and basically a blank check being handed over to the government to conduct whatever it needs to do secretly in the name of National Security whether that be kidnapping, murder, bombing civilians, declaring war on other nations, spending money faster than anyone in history and maxing out the country’s credit, etc. Everything breaks down when the foundations of civilization that have developed over time are just swept away in hysteria. Today the American dollar has fallen more than 45% since Bush took office, the country’s debt has become its biggest nightmare, and the status of America in the world has been totally annihilated.
Coming to Pakistan, I think only a fool would think that our politicians, media people and “opinion leaders” are any better than the scum of the Earth that I have described above, i.e. Western politicians, media and opinion makers.

Geo’s “King breaker” Mir Khalilur Rehman is well known for making bold and public statements about his ability to topple any government of Pakistan within a certain number of hours. That is a very mighty boast about his influence on the masses. Their policy is clearly to create viewership through emotion and controversy among the masses.

The owner of Daily Times/ Business Plus, Salman Taseer, is an admitted PPP “jiyala”. During the MQM reign his media outfit purposely completely abstained from ever criticizing them or even whispering Altaf’s name in a bad way. They are scared to death of saying anything about The Don of Karachi, Altaf bhai….mazloomo ka saathi….Altaf Hussain! The fact that he owns a media outfit, is a politician, and one of the country’s biggest businessmen has only raised eyebrows with a few who still bother to use the gray matter between their ears. Mr Taseer promoted Callmate and other companies of his own through this channel. Callmate Telips later went lost billions of rupees of investor money. Notice that First Capital Equity Securities is regularly advertised on Mr Taseer’s media outfits? That’s because he owns that company.

ARY boss Abdul Razzak Yaqub specifically fired Dr Shahid Masood because his criticisms were affecting Mr Yaqub’s business and he didn’t want to irk Mushy boy when so much dough was rolling in. The guy sold real estate, gold, calling cards, groceries and pretty much everything through that channel. Notice that most of those businesses being advertised on his channel were his own companies, i.e. ARY Gold, ARY Calling Cards, ARY Real Estate, etc. Clearly the channel is just a loss leading business he uses to sell other stuff…..do not expect lofty ideals such as journalistic integrity and the right of the public to the truth to be accommodated in this free-for-all economy.

You simply cannot expect our Pakistani media to be respecting any sort of lofty ideals, it has, in my opinion, been conclusively proven that that is simply not the nature of the Pakistani ruling class. If anything, our media are probably much bigger liars than even Hannity and Combs or that racist loud mouth idiot, O’Reilly.

I have noticed that people give too much credit to these institutions that have proven to be failures in the shiniest of shiny capitals, Washington. The answer is for the public to always be willing to question and not just accept whatever we are told, especially when historic things are taking place. We should never be willing to compromise on the checks and balances that prevent the powerful from making fools of the public. These checks and balances include bringing people to court for crimes rather than allowing the government to carry out military operations within its own territory, or rendering [kidnapping] people and making them disappear. Those who resist arrest can obviously be dealt with force, but unless everyone and their uncle knows that we do not disappear people and we will deal with them justly, they will have reason to distrust us and to fight. They are probably also being exploited and lied to by their own media and leadership and the only way to fight lies is with openness and truth.

Our government has admitted to kidnapping people and making them disappear. They have admitted to torturing people. They have admitted to massive civilian casualties in bombing raids IN THEIR OWN TERRITORY! Yet, so much of our public is marching along in giving them more blank checks to carry out yet more of the same as a solution to the ills caused by these tactics.

For whatever reason, powerful interests that have yet to be fully identified are very keen for Pakistan to declare war on its own citizens and to steadily expand that initial war into some climatic event. Once we agree to abandon the checks and balances, due process, and truthfulness in this operation, it will be expanded into an endless War on Terror operation that will benefit a few at the expense of the many and those checks and balances will be gone forever and replaced with only a façade of civility.

When they came for the Muhajir, I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t a Muhajir. When they came for Baloch nationalists, I said nothing because I wasn’t a Baloch. When they came for Pashtun tribesmen, I said nothing because I wasn’t a Pashtun tribesman. When they came for the Mullah I said nothing because I wasn’t a Mullah. And when they came for me, there was nobody left to speak up.

We will in effect become a secret police state in which terror and counter terror become the norm. Make no mistake about it, we have been sold a civil war in Pakistan and we have swallowed the bait hook line and sinker. We will all pay for this dearly.

Excellent article:tup:. Very nicely explained the various amount of drawbacks that we have in our society and the loop holes that we give to these no good champions of democracy to exploit us.

Zyxius who's the author? Any link to it.
 
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The way to bring this civil war to an end is clearly to establish the rule of law over the outlaws as well as the enforcers of the law. We have too many people in the army who are backing a scorched earth policy in NWFP, FATA and Balochistan but the truth of the matter is firstly that it is inhuman and repulsive to anyone with a working moral compass and secondly if you try to win a war based on tactical victory and forget about winning hearts and minds then you have lost the war before it even ends.

Hopefully the new civilian govt can somehow start to reverse the 8 years of hatred that has been built up in western pakistan thanks to this ridiculous war on a noun. There is still time to stop the vertical partition that foreign and domestic enemies of Pakistan have been working so hard to make happen.
 
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When they came for the Muhajir, I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t a Muhajir. When they came for Baloch nationalists, I said nothing because I wasn’t a Baloch. When they came for Pashtun tribesmen, I said nothing because I wasn’t a Pashtun tribesman. When they came for the Mullah I said nothing because I wasn’t a Mullah. And when they came for me, there was nobody left to speak up.

A well articulated post. Appears to hit an arrow to the heart.

However, it does not appeal.

It appears more of an attempt to incite and blame everyone else.

There maybe internal dissensions, but there is no groundswell for a civil war.
The lines are not all that divided. And Pakistanis are not that foolish as you wish to make them out to be.

What I have quoted from your post, is it not the same with all countries? How is it special to Pakistan. In ever country until you are affected, you could not care less. Even in the US!!

So, you are merely trying to raise the emotional level with clever illustrations!

The same could be said of India, but nowhere are we near a civil war conditions! Same could be said of any country and still they chug along in their own miserable ways.

Yet, a good post from the journalistic point of view!

Impressive!

But the discerning will see through your points.

No offence meant. It is just that there is no scenario that suggest a civil war in Pakistan!

In any multi ethnic nation, such problems as in Pakistan will be rife!
 
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A well articulated post. Appears to hit an arrow to the heart.

However, it does not appeal.

It appears more of an attempt to incite and blame everyone else.

There maybe internal dissensions, but there is no groundswell for a civil war.
The lines are not all that divided. And Pakistanis are not that foolish as you wish to make them out to be.

So, you are merely trying to raise the emotional level with clever illustrations!


But the discerning will see through your points.

No offence meant.

Although it sounds like you are repeatedly questioning my motives, I will attribute that to miscommunication. No offense taken.

I also think there has been further miscommunication....you seem to have missed the point entirely. If I was to sum what I wrote into a few words, these are it:

Due process, every body should be questioning things rather than just accepting them, checks and balances, law and order, transparency, openness, accountability, fair and open trials and respect for fundamental human rights including the right to life. Can you please tell me what you find so objectionable about these values?

Regarding your point that there is no civil war in Pakistan. The definition of a civil war is as follows:

A civil war is a military conflict which arises from a desire for usually radical change in society as a result of either cultural, social, religious, political or economic disputes due to diametrically opposed and uncompromising ideas about the leadership, administration and management of the population and territory it occupies, and which is resolved through use of weapons. The opponents are usually representatives of the same culture, society or nationality, and contest the right for the control of political power, and with it the right to formulate policy for future administration of the population and resources of the territory where the dispute takes place.

(Civil war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

The people against whom the operations are being carried out are citizens of Pakistan, and if we are to believe the government, they are trying to exert their control over the area in which the violence is mainly located, i.e. FATA and the border areas. Therefore, this is a civil war according to the government and the media.
 
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Hello ladies and gentlemen,

How are you? So, our man Zyxius is the new kid on the block. It is good to see you put this much effort in your post---it would be nice if you would be able to take it to the next level and come up with a game plan---how to tackle the issues---

There has been enough blame put on the deceipt of George Bush and his comrades regarding the invasion of iraq----agreed----but the question always comes up ( at least in my discussion )----what did the muslim iraq do to forestall any efforts of the coming disaster----nothing----none----zilch----nothing different in afghanistan----Mullah Omar had every oppurtunity to save his nation----but fell into the trap of the same fatal muslim flaw----did you guys ever hear that joke about two travellers caught by an african tribe----you want to live or you want to die----the one who wanted to live----the king told his guards to fc-u-him and let him go----"boonga boonga" then let him go----the other one said, 'I want to die'.---the king said 'yeah'----Ok to you---death by boonga boonga.

I want to talk about why the muslims choose death by boonga boonga----kill me----kill my family----destroy my property----destroy my fields, crops----destroy my nation----annihilate me----so that for any possible future generations to come by, there is nothing but misery----so why is it that pakistanis are heading towards anarchy and chaos----a people and nation who claim to be of a higher intellect and that of a superior mind.
 
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Hello ladies and gentlemen,

How are you? So, our man Zyxius is the new kid on the block. It is good to see you put this much effort in your post---it would be nice if you would be able to take it to the next level and come up with a game plan---how to tackle the issues---

There has been enough blame put on the deceipt of George Bush and his comrades regarding the invasion of iraq----agreed----but the question always comes up ( at least in my discussion )----what did the muslim iraq do to forestall any efforts of the coming disaster----nothing----none----zilch----nothing different in afghanistan----Mullah Omar had every oppurtunity to save his nation----but fell into the trap of the same fatal muslim flaw----did you guys ever hear that joke about two travellers caught by an african tribe----you want to live or you want to die----the one who wanted to live----the king told his guards to fc-u-him and let him go----"boonga boonga" then let him go----the other one said, 'I want to die'.---the king said 'yeah'----Ok to you---death by boonga boonga.

I want to talk about why the muslims choose death by boonga boonga----kill me----kill my family----destroy my property----destroy my fields, crops----destroy my nation----annihilate me----so that for any possible future generations to come by, there is nothing but misery----so why is it that pakistanis are heading towards anarchy and chaos----a people and nation who claim to be of a higher intellect and that of a superior mind.

one word ''Education''.
 
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Although it sounds like you are repeatedly questioning my motives, I will attribute that to miscommunication. No offense taken.

I also think there has been further miscommunication....you seem to have missed the point entirely. If I was to sum what I wrote into a few words, these are it:

Due process, every body should be questioning things rather than just accepting them, checks and balances, law and order, transparency, openness, accountability, fair and open trials and respect for fundamental human rights including the right to life. Can you please tell me what you find so objectionable about these values?

Regarding your point that there is no civil war in Pakistan. The definition of a civil war is as follows:

A civil war is a military conflict which arises from a desire for usually radical change in society as a result of either cultural, social, religious, political or economic disputes due to diametrically opposed and uncompromising ideas about the leadership, administration and management of the population and territory it occupies, and which is resolved through use of weapons. The opponents are usually representatives of the same culture, society or nationality, and contest the right for the control of political power, and with it the right to formulate policy for future administration of the population and resources of the territory where the dispute takes place.

(Civil war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

The people against whom the operations are being carried out are citizens of Pakistan, and if we are to believe the government, they are trying to exert their control over the area in which the violence is mainly located, i.e. FATA and the border areas. Therefore, this is a civil war according to the government and the media.

Honestly, your post was a real pleasure to read. It was a rare opportunity to read something intellectually analysed, even if I did not agree. It was not one of the unintelligent treatise that is spawned. Honest, it was a great post and that is why I gave my views so that I could get another intellectually inspiring post from you.

The fact as to why I don't believe that Pakistan is ripe for civil war is because there is no incongruity be it religious or as the Chinese call ''splittist'' tendencies.

Islam rules supreme. Interpretation is slightly different. That is about all. Take the example of India. Multi religious and total confusion. If they don't have a civil war, why should Pakistan? India is multi ethnic and so is Pakistan. So is Pakistan. If India can ride this hassle, why not Pakistan?

India has Hinduism as a majority religion, which is free wheeling entity where each man has his own interpretation unlike Islam which is regimented and straight jacketed wherein the Koran is supreme! With such a situation where there can be no dissension, why should there be any space for divergence unlike Hinduism? If India can survive without a civil war or a military take over, why should Pakistan?

There is no requirement for any radical change in Pakistan. So, where is the issue of a civil war?

I would accept the concept of civil war if sub nationalism is greater than Islam.

I don't think that anyone professing the Islamic faith relegates Islam to nationalism or sub nationalism!

In India that is the problem wherein Islam is taken to be on a higher plane than nationalism.

This should not be the same for an Islamic Republic as Pakistan!

I find you are a clone of AGNOSTIC MSOLEM.

Do debate.

Maybe I will be a better man!
 
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The fact as to why I don't believe that Pakistan is ripe for civil war is because there is no incongruity be it religious or as the Chinese call ''splittist'' tendencies.

Islam rules supreme. Interpretation is slightly different. That is about all. Take the example of India. Multi religious and total confusion. If they don't have a civil war, why should Pakistan? India is multi ethnic and so is Pakistan. So is Pakistan. If India can ride this hassle, why not Pakistan?

India has Hinduism as a majority religion, which is free wheeling entity where each man has his own interpretation unlike Islam which is regimented and straight jacketed wherein the Koran is supreme! With such a situation where there can be no dissension, why should there be any space for divergence unlike Hinduism? If India can survive without a civil war or a military take over, why should Pakistan?

There is no requirement for any radical change in Pakistan. So, where is the issue of a civil war?

I would accept the concept of civil war if sub nationalism is greater than Islam.

I don't think that anyone professing the Islamic faith relegates Islam to nationalism or sub nationalism!

In India that is the problem wherein Islam is taken to be on a higher plane than nationalism.

This should not be the same for an Islamic Republic as Pakistan!

I find you are a clone of AGNOSTIC MSOLEM.

Do debate.

Maybe I will be a better man!


Salim, I find that your reasons for there is not a civil war are more along the philosophical lines of 'why there should not be a civil war in Pakistan' and there is a difference between the two. One is what is actually happening and the other is an idea of why it should not be happening.

Clearly the GoP is fighting with citizens of Pakistan using the military and those people are resisting using weapons and force in exchange. Its not one or two dudes in hats, but its a huge number of people and it seems as if there is an endless supply of people willing to go through the meat grinder. Clearly that meets the definition of civil war.....no? Philosophical reasons aside....just plainly based on the definition and what is happening on the ground plz.

Regarding my being a clone of Agnostic Muslim....we could not be further apart. He believes in bombing these people rather than the rule of law...which he equates to someone trying to walk into Taliban territory with a pair of handcuffs. We are on opposite ends of the spectrum there. As regards to the ideology; I am and always will be unflinching supporter of a Khilafa based on the examples of the Prophet (SAW) and the Khulafa Rashidun. I think Agnostic Muslim would have a heart attack if that happened. I believe in the rule of law and a just law, which I dont see anywhere around, which is why I posted what I did.
 
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If successive GoPs fight terrorism.

Are they wrong?

What is your solution?
 
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If successive GoPs fight terrorism.

Are they wrong?

What is your solution?

You asked for a debate...but in my view a discussion, debate, or exchange of ideas usually only works when there are some common sense principles involved. For example, I have already provided my solution but I will repeat a part of what I wrote to re-answer your question..but my answer to your question is in the very first post. This is also for Mastan Khan's benefit who says that I have not provided a solution, but I feel that I have:

"The answer is for the public to always be willing to question and not just accept whatever we are told, especially when historic things are taking place. We should never be willing to compromise on the checks and balances that prevent the powerful from making fools of the public. These checks and balances include bringing people to court for crimes rather than allowing the government to carry out military operations within its own territory, or rendering [kidnapping] people and making them disappear. Those who resist arrest can obviously be dealt with force, but unless everyone and their uncle knows that we do not disappear people and we will deal with them justly, they will have reason to distrust us and to fight. They are probably also being exploited and lied to by their own media and leadership and the only way to fight lies is with openness and truth. "

In other words, I am saying that the government must apply the law to the guilty. If the law is not for the guilty, then who should it be for? The innocent?!

Again I will repeat the key words that are the solutions to these issues in my view:

"Due process, every body should be questioning things rather than just accepting them, checks and balances, law and order, transparency, openness, accountability, fair and open trials and respect for fundamental human rights including the right to life."


Now let me ask you some questions about general principles and I would appreciate your response:

1. Do you feel that the rule of law should be abandoned? Plz answer generically and not specific to this case
2. Are not laws made for tough times and to regulate the punishments of the guilty? Plz answer generically and not specific to this case
3. Is complete openness and transparency not the best way to deal with propaganda and confusion? Plz answer generically and not specific to this case
4. Do you believe that someone who is accused of being guilty should have the right to due process in a court of law? Plz answer generically and not specific to this case
5. Do governments always tell the truth? Plz answer generically and not specific to this case
6. Does the media always tell the truth? Plz answer generically and not specific to this case
7. Are checks and balances not necessary to prevent human error or interference? Plz answer generically and not specific to this case
 
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The world was laughing at the Americans when they were changing the name of French Fries to Freedom Fries. Can you believe their Congress actually met and passed a resolution to this effect?! This is while the President who ran on promises of health care, and Congress, didn’t even bother to hold a single vote on the issue. The media cheered them along and all the Americans were a bunch of dumb flag waivers. “Support the troops, Support our boys who defend this nation” was the slogan constantly rubbed in the face on anyone who dared to question the trend or anything the US President said.

Most Americans don’t know that their government actually hired the Rendon Group, a company that specializes in the business of “perception management”….or in more truthful words, propaganda...or more truthful words still….making fools out of the public by telling half truths and outright lies to them.

Today only the most ardent deniers of the truth still say that Bush and the government DID NOT falsify the case for the Iraq War. What was the media doing? They were encouraging Americans to pour their French wines down the gutters in a display of anti French sentiment simply because they dared to question the American government’s policy. They flared sentiment against anyone who dared to question, not even sparing the Dixie Chicks who are now taboo’d from appearing on most of the mainstream media. Lest we forget, “embedded journalists” was a new term coined to gloss over the fact that reporters were now not even going to bother getting the story from anywhere else except the Good guys [Americans]. They refuse to show American troops dead because “its News, not reality TV”. Wow!! What stunning logic and what a bunch of idiots who swallow this ****.

And while everyone was focused on the enemy and the War and engaging in the “Support the troops” campaigns, their government stripped the country of Habeus Corpus and other key elements of the Magna Carta that are the basis of Western civilization……the media response? Dead silence……..except for the occasional aberrant who may get the chance to say it once on TV, nobody and I mean nobody is discussing how eerily reminiscent this was of Hitler’s rise to power from an unpopular leader to the unchallenged dictator after the convenient burning of the Reichstag (Parliament) Building. Hmmmmmm……could it be that events, particularly wars and disasters have been exploited by leaders? NO WAY!! (Sarcasm)

All of the above has basically led to the stripping of the constitution, break down of law and order, elimination of the system of checks and balances, and basically a blank check being handed over to the government to conduct whatever it needs to do secretly in the name of National Security whether that be kidnapping, murder, bombing civilians, declaring war on other nations, spending money faster than anyone in history and maxing out the country’s credit, etc. Everything breaks down when the foundations of civilization that have developed over time are just swept away in hysteria. Today the American dollar has fallen more than 45% since Bush took office, the country’s debt has become its biggest nightmare, and the status of America in the world has been totally annihilated.
Coming to Pakistan, I think only a fool would think that our politicians, media people and “opinion leaders” are any better than the scum of the Earth that I have described above, i.e. Western politicians, media and opinion makers.

Geo’s “King breaker” Mir Khalilur Rehman is well known for making bold and public statements about his ability to topple any government of Pakistan within a certain number of hours. That is a very mighty boast about his influence on the masses. Their policy is clearly to create viewership through emotion and controversy among the masses.

The owner of Daily Times/ Business Plus, Salman Taseer, is an admitted PPP “jiyala”. During the MQM reign his media outfit purposely completely abstained from ever criticizing them or even whispering Altaf’s name in a bad way. They are scared to death of saying anything about The Don of Karachi, Altaf bhai….mazloomo ka saathi….Altaf Hussain! The fact that he owns a media outfit, is a politician, and one of the country’s biggest businessmen has only raised eyebrows with a few who still bother to use the gray matter between their ears. Mr Taseer promoted Callmate and other companies of his own through this channel. Callmate Telips later went lost billions of rupees of investor money. Notice that First Capital Equity Securities is regularly advertised on Mr Taseer’s media outfits? That’s because he owns that company.

ARY boss Abdul Razzak Yaqub specifically fired Dr Shahid Masood because his criticisms were affecting Mr Yaqub’s business and he didn’t want to irk Mushy boy when so much dough was rolling in. The guy sold real estate, gold, calling cards, groceries and pretty much everything through that channel. Notice that most of those businesses being advertised on his channel were his own companies, i.e. ARY Gold, ARY Calling Cards, ARY Real Estate, etc. Clearly the channel is just a loss leading business he uses to sell other stuff…..do not expect lofty ideals such as journalistic integrity and the right of the public to the truth to be accommodated in this free-for-all economy.

You simply cannot expect our Pakistani media to be respecting any sort of lofty ideals, it has, in my opinion, been conclusively proven that that is simply not the nature of the Pakistani ruling class. If anything, our media are probably much bigger liars than even Hannity and Combs or that racist loud mouth idiot, O’Reilly.

I have noticed that people give too much credit to these institutions that have proven to be failures in the shiniest of shiny capitals, Washington. The answer is for the public to always be willing to question and not just accept whatever we are told, especially when historic things are taking place. We should never be willing to compromise on the checks and balances that prevent the powerful from making fools of the public. These checks and balances include bringing people to court for crimes rather than allowing the government to carry out military operations within its own territory, or rendering [kidnapping] people and making them disappear. Those who resist arrest can obviously be dealt with force, but unless everyone and their uncle knows that we do not disappear people and we will deal with them justly, they will have reason to distrust us and to fight. They are probably also being exploited and lied to by their own media and leadership and the only way to fight lies is with openness and truth.

Our government has admitted to kidnapping people and making them disappear. They have admitted to torturing people. They have admitted to massive civilian casualties in bombing raids IN THEIR OWN TERRITORY! Yet, so much of our public is marching along in giving them more blank checks to carry out yet more of the same as a solution to the ills caused by these tactics.

For whatever reason, powerful interests that have yet to be fully identified are very keen for Pakistan to declare war on its own citizens and to steadily expand that initial war into some climatic event. Once we agree to abandon the checks and balances, due process, and truthfulness in this operation, it will be expanded into an endless War on Terror operation that will benefit a few at the expense of the many and those checks and balances will be gone forever and replaced with only a façade of civility.

When they came for the Muhajir, I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t a Muhajir. When they came for Baloch nationalists, I said nothing because I wasn’t a Baloch. When they came for Pashtun tribesmen, I said nothing because I wasn’t a Pashtun tribesman. When they came for the Mullah I said nothing because I wasn’t a Mullah. And when they came for me, there was nobody left to speak up.

We will in effect become a secret police state in which terror and counter terror become the norm. Make no mistake about it, we have been sold a civil war in Pakistan and we have swallowed the bait hook line and sinker. We will all pay for this dearly.

My thoughts on this post are:

What do we call civil war? If you mean action against our own people, then we have had mini civil wars since 1948. There was action against the Red shirts. Against Kalaat and in Dir very early on in our history. There were anti Qadiani riots led by Maulana Maudoodi in the 1950’s, anti Pathan riots in 1965, anti Qadiani riots again in 1969-70.

We had proper civil war East Pakistan verses West Pakistan in 1971. Then action against the Marri Baluchs during ZA Bhutto era. There were also Sindhi /Mohajir riots when Mumtaz Bhutto was Chief Minister of Sindh during 1972-73.

From 1991 onwards we had sectarian war started by Haq Nawaz Jhangvi and Riaz Basra, replied with equal ferocity by the Shia Sepah Mohammadia. I have been in Sargodha during 90’s and Mullah refused to offer Eid prayers in village due the fear that some one will come on motor cycle and throw in a grenade on the congregation. Nasirullah Baber of PPP killed hundreds of MQM supporters in extra judicial killings in Karachi. Things got worse during Nawaz Sharif time with Momenpura murders in Lahore.

Why are you limiting to post 9/11 period. . Only difference is that previously the divide was ethnic and linguistic. Seed of Pakhtoonistan, Baluch independence and Sindhi Nationalist movement was formed by GM Syed in 1955 now we also have sectarian violence including Sunni versus Sunnis in Bara.


There are two forces at work in Pakistan who are actively involved in killing and destruction.

Nationalist forces, mainly Baluch claim that any thing in Baluchistan in theirs and other people of Pakistan has no right on it. I have myself come across people in Fort Monroe area at the Dear Ghazi Khan Baluchistan border who did not consider themselves Pakistanis. This was 1975. You have people blasting gas pipelines, rail tracks every day. What do you propose to do except use force when all else fails?

A very aggressive extremist minority is using every kind of force to impose their will on the public at large and they are doing in the name of Islam. You mention constitution. Pakistan had no constitution until 1973. No doubt it is an extremely important document but don’t blame all the troubles on the abrogation of constitution by Musharraf. Pray tell me, when extremist students of Lal Masjid take over libray building and refuse to vacate it despite negotiations lasting 3 months. They petrol the streets and start closing down video shops and kidnap people including policeman, you expect govt to do nothing?

Look at FATA situation now. Is it Pakistan or not? If it is Pakistan, where is the writ of the govt. How many times these people have made agreements and broken their word. You would like govt to do nothing.

I would agree with you one hundred percent that job of the govt is to preserve live and property of the Joe public and not kill them. But sometimes it becomes necessary to kill a few to save hundreds of others. Pakistanis don’t need anyone to sell them civil war; we are quite capable of destroying ourselves.

Let us not talk about media, no one tells more half truths than the media. War on terror may have been a US operation in the begining, but no longer; Pakistan's existence is on stake here. If we want Pakistan state to survive; anti state elements have to be dealt with an iron hand. There is greater danger of Pakistan turning into a police state if you let extremist elements prosper by doing nothing.

Faiz Ahmed Faiz said 50 year ago that this country needs a ‘Suffalk Maseeha’ meaning a cruel surgeon. Don’t put all the blame of Musharraf regime. This thing has been simmering since the day Pakistan was born.


Of course you and every one else has a righ to disagree with my views.
 
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Niaz,

The way you are seeing it is extreme in my view. You seem to be seeing a "Shock and Awe" policy on one side and a totally do nothing on the other. You do realize that between those two insane extremes is a world of reality that includes all the things that we've been discussing on this thread so far.

Also, since you are jumping in...it would be helpful if you wouldn't mind taking a few mins to answer the questions I posed to Salim.
 
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