Seismic Research Vessel BARBOROS HAYRETTIN Enters Into Service

[amalakas]

^oh that post again... I should take my leave.

I miss the old days when we used to discuss things with a military attitude, now it's international law this, 8 miles that...

A went to former Yugoslavia slightly after the civil war. That I believe was when I realised military attitude costs way to much in human misery.
Things I saw wouldn't wish them upon my worst enemy... it kind of changed my perspective.

 

[TheCommander]

It has been a few days, but I don't like things unanswered.
This is from a much older post of mine.

Amalakas, thanks for replying. I am a little busy but I will come back to discuss what you have written.

 

[TheCommander]

@amalakas

I was going to argue with you about what you have written but I thought it will be waste of time since you and I both expressed what we think about this dispute. I just want to say one thing about this. You state international law when you defend your 12 mile extension. But you do not refer the international law about air space. The international law does not grand the right to coastal state to declare different widths for the territorial waters for different purposes. Today, your legal continental shelf is 6 mile and you cannot declare your airspace as 10 mile while the international law does not allow this. You might argue that you have not declared because of casus belli, but this will not change the fact. Your legal continental shelf is 6 mile. That is what you are bound by.

I actually want to tell you this shocking news. Maybe it is not shocking news for you since your country aware what the truth is.

There are around 150 islands and islets and their sovereignty has not been handed over from the Ottomans to any country.
When the International Permanent Arbitration Tribunal solved the armed conflict on an island and islets crisis (Hanis-Zukar Islands) between Eritrea and Yemen in 1995, which caused the death of two people, the court used the Lausanne Peace Treaty of the 16th comment on the article. With the court's interpretation, the status of the islands of the Ottoman Empire were determined as “sovereignty undetermined islands”. According to the court decision and interpretations, the islands, islets, and rocks where the sovereignty has not been determined cannot belong to Greece in the language of international law contrary to Greece theses.

Islands are the legacy of the Ottoman Empire to Turkiye

The disputed islands in the Aegean are the islands where sovereignty has not been handed over in any treaty. Therefore, these islands were directly transferred to the Republic of Turkiye which is the successor of the Ottoman Empire and the islands are the Turkish territory.

Based on the court decision on Eritrea-Yemen conflict and reviews of Ottoman archives, some of the important islands have been determined which are: Kardak, Eşek Adasi (Gaidaros), Nergiscik (Mandiraki), Bulamac (Farmakonisi), Keci (Pserimos), Kızkardaslar (Adelfia), Sirina , Uc adalar (Plakhida), Safran Adalari (Sofrana), İstakida (Astakidhapula), Kandilli (Kandhelioussa), Kocbaba (Kocpapas-Levita), Sirina Ardiccik (Zenari-Kinaros), Kendiroz (Liad), Khurshid (Furni), Fornoz (Fimena) and Koyun Adasi (Sheep Island).

Sovereignty determined islands in treaties:

1 – Egriboz (Euboea)
2 – Kuzey Sporat Adalari (North Sporat Islands)
3 – Kiklad Adalari (Cycladic Islands)
4 – Cuha (Cloth), Kucuk Cuha (Small Cloth)
5 – Girit (Crete)
6 – Midilli (Pony)
7 – Limni (Limni)
8 – Semadirek (Samothrace)
9 – Gokceada (Imbros)
10 - Bozcaada
11 – Sakiz
12 – Sisam (Samos)
13 - Ahikerya
14 – Tasoz (Thasos)
15 - Bozbaba
16 - İpsara
17 – Tavsan Island (Rabbit Island)
18 – Rodos (Rhodes)

I assure you Amalakas, when the time comes, we will get those islands back.

For those who want to learn more about these islands can check this link (sorry in turkish) Türkiye Ege'deki 150 adas

 

[amalakas]

@amalakas

I was going to argue with you about what you have written but I thought it will be waste of time since you and I both expressed what we think about this dispute. I just want to say one thing about this. You state international law when you defend your 12 mile extension. But you do not refer the international law about air space. The international law does not grand the right to coastal state to declare different widths for the territorial waters for different purposes. Today, your legal continental shelf is 6 mile and you cannot declare your airspace as 10 mile while the international law does not allow this. You might argue that you have not declared because of casus belli, but this will not change the fact. Your legal continental shelf is 6 mile. That is what you are bound by.

I actually want to tell you this shocking news. Maybe it is not shocking news for you since your country aware what the truth is.

There are around 150 islands and islets and their sovereignty has not been handed over from the Ottomans to any country.
When the International Permanent Arbitration Tribunal solved the armed conflict on an island and islets crisis (Hanis-Zukar Islands) between Eritrea and Yemen in 1995, which caused the death of two people, the court used the Lausanne Peace Treaty of the 16th comment on the article. With the court's interpretation, the status of the islands of the Ottoman Empire were determined as “sovereignty undetermined islands”. According to the court decision and interpretations, the islands, islets, and rocks where the sovereignty has not been determined cannot belong to Greece in the language of international law contrary to Greece theses.

Islands are the legacy of the Ottoman Empire to Turkiye

The disputed islands in the Aegean are the islands where sovereignty has not been handed over in any treaty. Therefore, these islands were directly transferred to the Republic of Turkiye which is the successor of the Ottoman Empire and the islands are the Turkish territory.

Based on the court decision on Eritrea-Yemen conflict and reviews of Ottoman archives, some of the important islands have been determined which are: Kardak, Eşek Adasi (Gaidaros), Nergiscik (Mandiraki), Bulamac (Farmakonisi), Keci (Pserimos), Kızkardaslar (Adelfia), Sirina , Uc adalar (Plakhida), Safran Adalari (Sofrana), İstakida (Astakidhapula), Kandilli (Kandhelioussa), Kocbaba (Kocpapas-Levita), Sirina Ardiccik (Zenari-Kinaros), Kendiroz (Liad), Khurshid (Furni), Fornoz (Fimena) and Koyun Adasi (Sheep Island).

Sovereignty determined islands in treaties:

1 – Egriboz (Euboea)
2 – Kuzey Sporat Adalari (North Sporat Islands)
3 – Kiklad Adalari (Cycladic Islands)
4 – Cuha (Cloth), Kucuk Cuha (Small Cloth)
5 – Girit (Crete)
6 – Midilli (Pony)
7 – Limni (Limni)
8 – Semadirek (Samothrace)
9 – Gokceada (Imbros)
10 - Bozcaada
11 – Sakiz
12 – Sisam (Samos)
13 - Ahikerya
14 – Tasoz (Thasos)
15 - Bozbaba
16 - İpsara
17 – Tavsan Island (Rabbit Island)
18 – Rodos (Rhodes)

I assure you Amalakas, when the time comes, we will get those islands back.

For those who want to learn more about these islands can check this link (sorry in turkish) Türkiye Ege'deki 150 adas

Well, this is what international courts are for.

Why does Turkey refuse to resort to one with Greece and for so long now (more than 30 years)?

An educated guess is that Turkey is afraid it will lose the case.
Do you have another? My ears are open.

As for the islands you mention, anything is possible in life, and given enough time, even mountains move or disappear. But if I had to put my money on a bet, I would say Turkey is unlikely to win anything over from Greece (peacefully). In reality because it has no legal basis and because major upsets have to happen for the international community to support unjust claims.
It may happen, but it is very unlikely.

Also what you seem to forget is that some of the islands you seem to claim, do indeed geographically belong to the european continent, and indeed are geologically part of the same geological formation as mainland Greece.

Whichever way you look at it, the chances of Turkey (legal) are almost non existent. One of the reasons there hasn't been any attack from Turkey all this years is not good relations nor weakness in military balance. It is indeed because Turkish leadership knows they have no legal justification that is or can be internationally founded and supported. Plain and simple.

My personal suggestion to Turkey would be to get over the Aegean psychological complexion and just carry on developing the country. Short-sightedness can be counter productive for a country that wants -and indeed should- be a regional superpower.

My impression is that you are carrying to much of the old baggage. And you are as a nation trying hard to justify carrying it.

but that is just me.. what do I know .. right ?

 

[TheCommander]

Dear @amalakas

You are asking why Turkiye has refused resorting to one with Greece for a long time and you gave your opinion. In my opinion why Turkiye has not done it yet because 1) Turkiye politically was not strong in the international arena (still not strong enough to be global play maker) 2) Turkiye was not economically strong (again we are not strong enough) 3) Turkish military power was not strong (today we are getting strong but again we still not there where we wanna be) 4) There were many chaotic stuations in Turkiye, therefore, our country was not stable enough.

You know very well that when we want sovereignty undetermined islands back, this means we must go against Europion Union and the US as well. There are many example that even though you are right, it is not enough in international arena. You must be both politically, economically and militarily strong enough. That is why Turkiye has not made her movement yet. We might also add another reason: lackof foresight of politicians.

I should remind you that defending your right is not carrying to much of the old baggage, but right thing to do. I personally want this dispute to be solved peacefully with Greece. However, we cannot deny the reality which I mentioned in my previous post that the International court supports our argument and we cannot let a fait accompli.

And last thing about the psychological complexion. I think you are making a fatal mistake. You are the one who has psychological complexion. You cannot get over being ruled by turks about 400 years. That is why you try so hard. Am I wrong?

 

[amalakas]

Dear @amalakas

You are asking why Turkiye has refused resorting to one with Greece for a long time and you gave your opinion. In my opinion why Turkiye has not done it yet because 1) Turkiye politically was not strong in the international arena (still not strong enough to be global play maker) 2) Turkiye was not economically strong (again we are not strong enough) 3) Turkish military power was not strong (today we are getting strong but again we still not there where we wanna be) 4) There were many chaotic stuations in Turkiye, therefore, our country was not stable enough.

You know very well that when we want sovereignty undetermined islands back, this means we must go against Europion Union and the US as well. There are many example that even though you are right, it is not enough in international arena. You must be both politically, economically and militarily strong enough. That is why Turkiye has not made her movement yet. We might also add another reason: lackof foresight of politicians.

I should remind you that defending your right is not carrying to much of the old baggage, but right thing to do. I personally want this dispute to be solved peacefully with Greece. However, we cannot deny the reality which I mentioned in my previous post that the International court supports our argument and we cannot let a fait accompli.

And last thing about the psychological complexion. I think you are making a fatal mistake. You are the one who has psychological complexion. You cannot get over being ruled by turks about 400 years. That is why you try so hard. Am I wrong?

From the 4 reasons you mentioned above, I can only say that for some they are simply not quite true.
Turkey has always been in a key geographical position, had a very large population and although indeed the population might have been poor, the country was always in relative strong foundations. Politically perhaps Turkey had problems with its own internal affairs, but its position in the global arena has remained unchanged over the years. That goes for militarily too.

As for who is right and who is wrong on the claims issue, It seems Turkey wants something and it invents ways to get it. Even positions of the Turkish members in this forum are a proof of this, as their "informed" positions on this issue vary to a large degree, from meaningless cries of war to the more sophisticated informed opinions such as yours.

As far as our 400 year complexion as you call it, I would say not really.. people are ruled and freed all the time. Especially in the Mediterranean which gave birth to a number of empires that was common.

On the other hand, it was not long ago that a member of this forum posted that "Turkey will NOT let the Kurds betray it like the Greeks did!" To me that was very much revealing of an underlying issue with many Turkish friends in here.


Have you ever thought you might be believing the wrong thing all these years?

I was fortunate enough to have studied in Europe. If you have the same fortune, then perhaps you can also seek another view on the issues between the two countries.

For me it was enlightening in both the ways Greece has been right, but also in the ways Greece has been wrong. And I have served in the military.

Believing very hard in something doesn't make it true. Instead examining the situation from all possible sides reveals what the truth can be and what people expect it to be.

in reality Turkey seems to still believe in the "right of might".. it is still valid sometimes even today, but it is getting progressively harder and harder to rely on it. Even the US has troubles relying on it these days.

Perhaps it is time for a radical shift.

 

[TheCommander]

@amalakas

You may not agree what I said but in my opinion those are the reasons.

I believe dialog and understanding are the keys. War is the last option to solve a problem. I believe, there are many people who believe in the "right of might" in both Turkiye and Greece. Believe me if the majority thought the war is the solution, we would have done already. The conflict has a long history and not an easy task to solve. We will see though what will happen in the future. Either it will be a win-win or lost-lost solution or maybe a destruction which I do not hope to see.

 

[amalakas]

@amalakas

You may not agree what I said but in my opinion those are the reasons.

I believe dialog and understanding are the keys. War is the last option to solve a problem. I believe, there are many people who believe in the "right of might" in both Turkiye and Greece. Believe me if the majority thought the war is the solution, we would have done already. The conflict has a long history and not an easy task to solve. We will see though what will happen in the future. Either it will be a win-win or lost-lost solution or maybe a destruction which I do not hope to see.

Me neither. As I said in an older post. These things tend to find a way to solve themselves.