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Seducing Pakistan

Dude, did you read the words preceeding that? "The narrative of the naysayers goes that..." That means that the writer of the article is just stating the view of those people who are against peace overtures - he is not agreeing with that narrative, and thats the whole point. You missed it completely - he is being scathing of people who say that.
That is why you should never stop reading midway. UNless you read the article fully, or at least the paragraph itself, you will miss the context. Now go back and read the whole thing.
...Not only about pak, Indian's in general do not believe what MMS or UPA-II says, be it on Retail FDI, price rise , inflation..or mother of al...corruption..
Poor MMS. Everybody, including himself, knows well that he will not get another chance as PM, even if UPA wins election ( very unlikely). But unlike US presidents in second term, when they take bold and sincere steps- as they will not be president again , and would love to leave a positive mark on the society, MMS is still clueless, doesn't take steps good forthe country operates from remote control incompetent people( Raul ). :hitwall:
People will remember him as puppet and who squandered golden opportunities to reform and transform India.
 
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^^
Post #16,
Why did you quote my post there, none of what you are saying has anything to do with my post. Or with the thread itelf, for that matter.
 
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Then the people, Indian people, need to get their mentality checked, and should be branded as temple going anti-Pakistan people.

if citizens of any country hates india..........it won't effect spirit of india
I personally don't like pakistan...........may be pakistan is nuclear power,islamic country etc.......it is my indivitual opinion.............may be bcoz of existance of chain of hatreted in both countries....................
 
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Children are taught to hate India in Madrassahs ? One can’t find a single Pakistani who doesn’t have an animus against India ? When I saw that line I stopped reading any further. Indians believe that we Pakistanis all enrol into "Political Education Camps" when young learn to hate India from a bearded mullah clad in a suicide jacket with his lovely assistant clad in a Burqah and walk out clad in uniforms, brandishing full beards, swastikas and assault rifles. Throwing Heil Hitler salutes at a portrait of the President. Doesn't happen that way. I never attended a madrassah and neither did most of our other Pakistani members.
And don't Indians hate Pakistan ? I'd like to see you deny that. So would it be safe to assume that "ALL" Indians go to a special temple where they are taught to hate Pakistan and graduate in Safron Robes ?
Doesn't happen that way, just a reality check brought to you by a regular, non-brainwashed Pakistani terrorist.
Sadly it has been pointed out by media many times, especially by those who travel to pakistan. But the bad news makes bigger impact, 26/11 made biggest. One is constantly bombarded with images of beard/burqa/taliban/AK47 when talking about pakistan.

Also, I would agree there is lot of hatred toward pakistan in India. Only people's PM like Vajpayee could handle that, technocrats like MMS will find it very difficult.
 
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But how does the suspension of dialogue punish Pakistan?Will it hasten the prosecution and punishment of the perpetrators of the 26/11 crime? Will it lead to dismantling of training facilities and arrest of known terrorists in Pakistan? Will it facilitate a solution of the Kashmir problem and return of peace and normalcy in the Valley?

I don't think suspension of dialogue is as much about punishing Pakistan as it is about a lack of options. Dialogue will not change the nature of our relationship simply because Pakistan can't control the jihadis even if it wanted to. They've lost 40,000 people in less than ten years and that's only against a fraction of jihadis that exist on Pakistani soil. They can't afford a civil war and invite American intervention, definitely not by choice. Under these circumstances dialogue is just an eyewash. Talking to them might not necessarily embolden them but it won't stop them either. Suspending talks is simply a face saving measure until someone really crosses the line and forces the other's hand. Nuclear weapons simply increased India's threshold for war, the equation didn't change.

Will it erode the dominance of the Army and the ISI in Pakistan? Will it strengthen the hands of the civilian government in Pakistan and support democracy? Will it strengthen political stability in South Asia? Will it promote good neighbourly relations between India and Pakistan? Will it serve our broad national interests and enhance our international image?

Nope, but that's beyond our control anyway.

An honest answer to all these questions is an emphatic no. We can’t change our geographical location or wish away Pakistan. We must learn to live with Pakistan with all its failings; post-Partition baggage of animus and bitterness against India included.

We're doing exactly that. We're modernizing the police force, RAW is expanding its footprint, the military is being modernized, we're pressuring them diplomatically as best we can. Once again, the purpose here is to expand our options. Pakistan will not take on terrorist groups by choice because the stakes are more or less acceptable to them. If India can give its military real teeth and give itself an edge in localized skirmishes we'll have a real shot at controlling the jihadi menace. Of course, the obvious Pakistani answer here is 'well you can't contain the conflict'. That's true to an extent, but Pakistan will respond conventionally first they won't launch nukes at the first sign of trouble. After all, nukes were meant to safeguard their existence. That's hard to do when you nuke a country that's stronger than you.

The above can sound a little counter intuitive because who knows how Pakistan will respond to a limited strike right? Well think about it, 80% of Indian firepower faces west anyway. With a modern military holding a defensive line they'll be hard pressed to gain any ground without over extending themselves conventionally. Simply put we'll make a conventional response too expensive for them. The nuclear option will only come into play if India occupies a large part of Pakistan or attacks a city like Lahore. Nobody cares about the Thar desert. That leaves Pakistan with few cards to play, including the nuclear one of course. If India can limit their conventional capabilities we'll increase their threshold for a face off and keep Kargils and 26/11's to a minimum. We can live with the odd coffee shop blast or two as long as they can live with international pressure and Baluchistan.

Think about the status quo on the Korean peninsula. Pakistan is no N.Korea but we can maintain a similar arrangement.

We aren’t Pakistan’s largest trading partners or investors or source of defence supplies or financial supporter. In a nutshell, the suspension of dialogue doesn’t hurt Pakistan; other countries aren’t going to follow suit; Pakistan won’t be so isolated as to beg for peace with India!

We can't isolate them but we can grow without their cooperation.

Since 1947, every major conflict between India and Pakistan has been followed by the resumption of dialogue. So, instead of keeping the dialogue on and off why not let it continue uninterrupted in spite of the cycle of ups and downs in relations?

Sure why not, its not going to change anything.

The naysayers will dismiss this suggestion as capitulation to Pakistan. It will encourage Pakistan to inflict 1,000 cuts with impunity, they will claim. But is there any other option except dialogue? Have the naysayers ever come up with any plan, short of a dialogue, which will resolve the Kashmir problem, stop terrorist attacks from across the border and result in normal and peaceful relations with Pakistan?

Ah yes. There is a plan and its what we do best. Nothing. India needs to do nothing except maintain its growth trajectory and let Pakistan deal with its demons. There is no need to do anything about Kashmir, especially at the moment, when Pakistan has too much on its plate and is accused of interfering in Afghanistan. We can deal with them more decisively once the economy and military are stronger, why do it now when you can do it from a position of strength later?

Nudging Pakistan’s major trading partners: China, EU, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Iran to counsel her to make peace with India for her own survival and prosperity. Make prudent use of the carrot of our bourgeoning market and huge investment prospects. Make serious efforts to woo Pakistan’s corporate sector and make them vested stakeholders in peace with India.

Makes sense, and we're doing it without Kashmir.

Vigorous use of India’s soft power resources — films/film stars, music, fashion, cricket, writers, academics — can, over a period, bridge the trust deficit at people-to-people level and goad the decision makers to take the plunge and transform decades of hostility in to neighbourly peace.

Dear hippy, murderers have been showered with rose petals in Pakistan. What kind of transformation do you think bollywood/intellectuals can achieve? Pakistan has already been saturated by the Indian media.

Focus on new age, middle class, educated Internet savvy, Facebook/Twitter using youth of Pakistan whose dreams and aspirations aren’t too different from their Indian counterparts and encourage them to be catalysts of change. Invite 5,000 Pakistani college students every year to interact freely with Indian students and see for themselves what is happening in India.

See above. Talking to their moderates won't make a difference because they're too afraid to stand up to the jihadis.

Yes, the Army and the ISI control levers of power in Pakistan. But currently, the US-Pakistan relations are on the brink. Turmoil in Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Syria and Libya must be a cause of concern for Pakistan Army’s top brass; the power of unarmed, non-violent people passionately and fearlessly demanding their rights might have not gone unnoticed.

We can take advantage of their relations with the states.

And lol, if people had to stand up for their rights they would've done it decades ago. Egypt has a higher standard of living than every country in South Asia.
 
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Think about the status quo on the Korean peninsula. Pakistan is no N.Korea but we can maintain a similar arrangement.

Not the best comparison. North Korea only has a handful of fission devices.

Pakistan on the other hand has the fastest growing nuclear arsenal on Earth, which is already larger than India's. This is compounded by the fact that India will need to reserve at least 30% of it's nuclear arsenal in order to deter other nations (China) from joining in after India's nuclear arsenal has been depleted. Pakistan faces no such restrictions... therefore the number of nukes they can use against India is much more than vice versa.

Secondly, South and North Koreans believe they are the same people. Both sides want reunifcation, just under different governments. Again, this is not an issue that Pakistanis face, because even comparing them with Indians is an insult.

India and Pakistan: The world's most dangerous border | The Economist

There is a reason that the India-Pakistan border is called "The most dangerous border in the world"... while this description is not applied to the North/South Korea border.
 
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Thanks spitfire for the long reply. I dont agree with all you views, but I liked the way you laid them on the table.
I think limited dialogue without any major deal( like kashmir) is a good way forward.
Pakistan should stabilize first for big ticket deals, but we can always have CBMs, one small steps at a time.
 
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Not the best comparison. North Korea only has a handful of fission devices.

Pakistan on the other hand has the fastest growing nuclear arsenal on Earth, which is already larger than India's. This is compounded by the fact that India will need to reserve at least 30% of it's nuclear arsenal in order to deter other nations (China) from joining in after India's nuclear arsenal has been depleted. Pakistan faces no such restrictions... therefore the number of nukes they can use against India is much more than vice versa.

Secondly, South and North Koreans believe they are the same people. Both sides want reunifcation, just under different governments. Again, this is not an issue that Pakistanis face, because even comparing them with Indians is an insult.

India and Pakistan: The world's most dangerous border | The Economist

There is a reason that the India-Pakistan border is called "The most dangerous border in the world"... while this description is not applied to the North/South Korea border.
I would be scared to live near a country like north korea, which has nothing to lose, ruled by maniacs. In contrast, pakistanis have shown they are much more open to dialogue with India.
We trade with each other, and our people can cross border at designated places. A north korean border guard will probably shoot you if you look towards him.(if you are south korean)

Pakistani artists come and work in India, and Indian movies and serials are popular in pakistan.
We did not sink each other's ship since last big war.
 
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I would be scared to live near a country like north korea, which has nothing to lose, ruled by maniacs. In contrast, pakistanis have shown they are much more open to dialogue with India.

You may think the North Korean leadership are maniacs, and that's probably at least half-true. However, they are NOT insane. If they were, they would have nuked South Korea already.

In fact they have been quite realistic when it comes to the matter of their own survival, whereas an insane person wouldn't care if they lived or died. Kim Jong-il is many things, but he is not a suicide bomber, he actually wants to live.

Also, there is no issue of "cross-border terrorism" in the Korean peninsula.

Just another reason why the Economist referred to the India-Pakistan border as the Most dangerous border in the world, rather than the North/South Korean border.
 
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I would be scared to live near a country like north korea, which has nothing to lose, ruled by maniacs. In contrast, pakistanis have shown they are much more open to dialogue with India.
We trade with each other, and our people can cross border at designated places. A north korean border guard will probably shoot you if you look towards him.(if you are south korean)

Pakistani artists come and work in India, and Indian movies and serials are popular in pakistan.
We did not sink each other's ship since last big war.

lol, I don't care who goes to India.

We Pakistanis are different. We have a different culture. I know there are some Indians who hate that and dream of a "Akhand Bharat" or Greater India, but believe me, we Pakistanis will never be one with Bharat/present-day India.

Pakistan has more in common with Afghanistan.
We Pakistanis are just waiting for the War on terrorism to end.
 
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^^^^^

I regret that I can only thank this once. This deserved a double if anything.

Thanks spitfire for the long reply. I dont agree with all you views, but I liked the way you laid them on the table.
I think limited dialogue without any major deal( like kashmir) is a good way forward.
Pakistan should stabilize first for big ticket deals, but we can always have CBMs, one small steps at a time.

Thanks guys!
 
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lol, I don't care who goes to India.

We Pakistanis are different. We have a different culture. I know there are some Indians who hate that and dream of a "Akhand Bharat" or Greater India, but believe me, we Pakistanis will never be one with Bharat/present-day India.

Pakistan has more in common with Afghanistan.
We Pakistanis are just waiting for the War on terrorism to end.
My post was not to show we are same, but to show there is a lot of "business" going on between us. You personally may not care or are involved, but statistics are not taken like that.
I am not sure where akhand bharat came from, did you reply on the wrong thread?
 
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My post was not to show we are same, but to show there is a lot of "business" going on between us. You personally may not care or are involved, but statistics are not taken like that.
I am not sure where akhand bharat came from, did you reply on the wrong thread?

lol, India does more trade with China than India does with Pakistan or China does with Pakistan.

Does that mean the Chinese like India more than Pakistan?
 
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