Security beefed up in Islamabad as Lal Masjid cleric vows to restart 'Sharia Law' campaign

[TankMan]

Incorrect, Sir. Where have I bashed Sharia? My point is that how can something be implemented that cannot be agreed upon as to what it is? As a concept, it is fine. As a legal system, it needs definition before implementation.

To answer your first question, sir, a simple look at your previous posts is enough to tell your stance.

To answer your second question, this is not something that can not be agreed upon - it's just something no one wants to agree upon.

Otherwise, as I have said multiple times before, if they did want to come to an agreement, all it takes is for religious leaders to sit down and discuss the issues without pushing political agendas. More than enough common grounds and religious resources (i.e Quran and Hadith) exist to overcome or tolerate the differences.

For example, everyone agrees that Zakat needs to be paid, everyone agrees that - but instead of discussing what they have in common, the religious 'scholars' prefer arguing over beard lengths.

 

[VCheng]

To answer your first question, sir, a simple look at your previous posts is enough to tell your stance.

To answer your second question, this is not something that can not be agreed upon - it's just something no one wants to agree upon.

Otherwise, as I have said multiple times before, if they did want to come to an agreement, all it takes is for religious leaders to sit down and discuss the issues without pushing political agendas. More than enough common grounds and religious resources (i.e Quran and Hadith) exist to overcome or tolerate the differences.

For example, everyone agrees that Zakat needs to be paid, everyone agrees that - but instead of discussing what they have in common, the religious 'scholars' prefer arguing over beard lengths.

That lack of any agreement is precisely the reason I clearly said that there is no chance whatsoever of Sharia Law being implemented in Pakistan. When religious leaders cannot even agree on when Eid should be observed, what hope is there of anything more important?

All my previous posts have been clear in this regard, and there has been absolutely no bashing of Sharia itself. Please stop your baseless accusations in this matter.

 

[TankMan]

That lack of any agreement is precisely the reason I clearly said that there is no chance whatsoever of Sharia Law being implemented in Pakistan. When religious leaders cannot even agree on when Eid should be observed, what hope is there of anything more important?

'Chance', in this sense, is subjective. What qualifies as chance, in your books? In mine, the simple fact that people are discussing it is chance.

What are the chances of Sharia being implemented this very second? Obviously, none. But in the future? Plenty of chance.

Nobody in 1867 would have predicted the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917. Most probably dismissed Marx as being too idealistic. It still happened though. Just an example - there are countless others in History.

Not advocating a revolution though - our situation is too complicated to be solved suddenly and/or by force.

All my previous posts have been clear in this regard, and there has been absolutely no bashing of Sharia itself. Please stop your baseless accusations in this matter.

Well, according to your own argument, it's impossible to bash Sharia itself because it has not been defined properly.

You're basically saying that the implementation of Sharia is unlikely so we should stop talking or thinking about it - but then, the implementation of a Western Secular Democracy in Pakistan is very unlikely as well. That doesn't stop you from advocating it.

To you your beliefs and to me mine - at the end of the day, no one can predict the future.

 

[VCheng]

'Chance', in this sense, is subjective. What qualifies as chance, in your books? In mine, the simple fact that people are discussing it is chance.

What are the chances of Sharia being implemented this very second? Obviously, none. But in the future? Plenty of chance.

Nobody in 1867 would have predicted the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917. Most probably dismissed Marx as being too idealistic. It still happened though. Just an example - there are countless others in History.

Not advocating a revolution though - our situation is too complicated to be solved suddenly and/or by force.

Well, according to your own argument, it's impossible to bash Sharia itself because it has not been defined properly.

You're basically saying that the implementation of Sharia is unlikely so we should stop talking or thinking about it - but then, the implementation of a Western Secular Democracy in Pakistan is very unlikely as well. That doesn't stop you from advocating it.

To you your beliefs and to me mine - at the end of the day, no one can predict the future.

Sir, I can agree with the above, since I accept Sharia as a perfectly valid concept. I do not bash it at all, now or ever before, nor will I ever do it in the future. It is also perfectly fine to discuss it and believe in the day it will be implemented. Thank you for agreeing with me that right now there is no chance of it being implemented, and we can all hope it will be, some day in the future. The issue is that while personal beliefs can be "to you your beliefs and to me mine", a legal system must be common to all to ensure equality.

Let us start with baby steps. Can we get the esteemed Maulana who is the main actor in this thread and other religious leaders to agree on celebrating one Eid across Pakistan?

 

[Mrc]

Sir, I can agree with the above, since I accept Sharia as a perfectly valid concept. I do not bash it at all, now or ever before, nor will I ever do it in the future. It is also perfectly fine to discuss it and believe in the day it will be implemented. Thank you for agreeing with me that right now there is no chance of it being implemented, and we can all hope it will be, some day in the future. The issue is that while personal beliefs can be "to you your beliefs and to me mine", a legal system must be common to all to ensure equality.

Let us start with baby steps. Can we get the esteemed Maulana who is the main actor in this thread and other religious leaders to agree on celebrating one Eid across Pakistan?

Separate religious aspect from social aspect...

Let them celebrate 20 eids if they want...

But implement justice welfare edication....

 

[TankMan]

Sir, I can agree with the above, since I accept Sharia as a perfectly valid concept. I do not bash it at all, now or ever before, nor will I ever do it in the future. It is also perfectly fine to discuss it and believe in the day it will be implemented. Thank you for agreeing with me that right now there is no chance of it being implemented, and we can all hope it will be, some day in the future. The issue is that while personal beliefs can be "to you your beliefs and to me mine", a legal system must be common to all to ensure equality.

Great that we got that out of the way.

Let us start with baby steps. Can we get the esteemed Maulana who is the main actor in this thread and other religious leaders to agree on celebrating one Eid across Pakistan?

Yes, we can. We need to invite a number of popular religious leaders from every major sect across Pakistan into a conference room.

(Popular leader defined as one followed by more than 10% of his sect's mosques - the number of leaders to be invited will be the number that ensures a 3/4 majority of that sect agree; So if Maulana Alif has 20% of Barelvi mosques following him,Maulana Bey has another 35%, and Maulana Tey has another 25%, the three will be enough to have a majority agreement.

Major sect defined as one with more than 1% of the population's support: So, Barelvi, Deobandi, Ahle Hadith, and Shia would be included. The numbers are just rough ideas, we can conduct a proper survey and statistical analysis if needed)

The conference room needs to be locked down completely, and no food is to be allowed through until an agreement is reached. The discussion of any other topic except for one Eid is to be banned. (these steps might not be needed if we can somehow provide incentive to all the scholars)

One solution is to follow a system similar to the Saudis' Umm-al-Qura Calendar- the dates are predicted and a calendar is made, however, any one Muslim's word that he saw the Eid moon is enough to declare Eid in the whole country one day before or after the predicted date.

The problems with this are obvious - there will almost always be someone who wants Eid to be early and will testify even if he never saw the moon.

Another solution is to have one moon sighting committee that decides for the whole country. Another is to appoint a number of committees in each province and have Eid in the whole country if the majority (i.e more than 50%) of committees agrees that it should be Eid on that day.

The scholars can go through the details and pros and cons of each system themselves.

This can be done, and similar things have been done recently (admittedly on a smaller scale):

"ISLAMABAD: All religious sects in the federal capital will pray at the same time from May 1, 2015 and all mosques will call out the Azaan simultaneously.

The committee which made the decision included two clerics from each of the four major sects in the capital- Shia, Barelvi, Deobandi and Ahle Hadith. A member of the committee told Dawn, the major difference in the prayer timings was at Maghrib and the issue was resolved amicably between the committee members."

Obviously, there are some details that need to be handled and potential problems that we need to be prepared for, but this isn't an ideal world. Ideally, all the religious leaders would have everyone's best interest at heart and would do all this by themselves.

So, will you now provide me with some resources, manpower, and the contact details of every major religious leader?

 

[Zarvan]

Great that we got that out of the way.

Yes, we can. We need to invite a number of popular religious leaders from every major sect across Pakistan into a conference room.

(Popular leader defined as one followed by more than 10% of his sect's mosques - the number of leaders to be invited will be the number that ensures a 3/4 majority of that sect agree; So if Maulana Alif has 20% of Barelvi mosques following him,Maulana Bey has another 35%, and Maulana Tey has another 25%, the three will be enough to have a majority agreement.

Major sect defined as one with more than 1% of the population's support: So, Barelvi, Deobandi, Ahle Hadith, and Shia would be included. The numbers are just rough ideas, we can conduct a proper survey and statistical analysis if needed)

The conference room needs to be locked down completely, and no food is to be allowed through until an agreement is reached. The discussion of any other topic except for one Eid is to be banned. (these steps might not be needed if we can somehow provide incentive to all the scholars)

One solution is to follow a system similar to the Saudis' Umm-al-Qura Calendar- the dates are predicted and a calendar is made, however, any one Muslim's word that he saw the Eid moon is enough to declare Eid in the whole country one day before or after the predicted date.

The problems with this are obvious - there will almost always be someone who wants Eid to be early and will testify even if he never saw the moon.

Another solution is to have one moon sighting committee that decides for the whole country. Another is to appoint a number of committees in each province and have Eid in the whole country if the majority (i.e more than 50%) of committees agrees that it should be Eid on that day.

The scholars can go through the details and pros and cons of each system themselves.

This can be done, and similar things have been done recently (admittedly on a smaller scale):

"ISLAMABAD: All religious sects in the federal capital will pray at the same time from May 1, 2015 and all mosques will call out the Azaan simultaneously.

The committee which made the decision included two clerics from each of the four major sects in the capital- Shia, Barelvi, Deobandi and Ahle Hadith. A member of the committee told Dawn, the major difference in the prayer timings was at Maghrib and the issue was resolved amicably between the committee members."

Obviously, there are some details that need to be handled and potential problems that we need to be prepared for, but this isn't an ideal world. Ideally, all the religious leaders would have everyone's best interest at heart and would do all this by themselves.

So, will you now provide me with some resources, manpower, and the contact details of every major religious leader?

No point of debating with seculars. Sooner or later entire Muslim world would understand that without implementing Shariah you can't suppory base of militants.

 

[VCheng]

Great that we got that out of the way.

Yes, we can. We need to invite a number of popular religious leaders from every major sect across Pakistan into a conference room.

(Popular leader defined as one followed by more than 10% of his sect's mosques - the number of leaders to be invited will be the number that ensures a 3/4 majority of that sect agree; So if Maulana Alif has 20% of Barelvi mosques following him,Maulana Bey has another 35%, and Maulana Tey has another 25%, the three will be enough to have a majority agreement.

Major sect defined as one with more than 1% of the population's support: So, Barelvi, Deobandi, Ahle Hadith, and Shia would be included. The numbers are just rough ideas, we can conduct a proper survey and statistical analysis if needed)

The conference room needs to be locked down completely, and no food is to be allowed through until an agreement is reached. The discussion of any other topic except for one Eid is to be banned. (these steps might not be needed if we can somehow provide incentive to all the scholars)

One solution is to follow a system similar to the Saudis' Umm-al-Qura Calendar- the dates are predicted and a calendar is made, however, any one Muslim's word that he saw the Eid moon is enough to declare Eid in the whole country one day before or after the predicted date.

The problems with this are obvious - there will almost always be someone who wants Eid to be early and will testify even if he never saw the moon.

Another solution is to have one moon sighting committee that decides for the whole country. Another is to appoint a number of committees in each province and have Eid in the whole country if the majority (i.e more than 50%) of committees agrees that it should be Eid on that day.

The scholars can go through the details and pros and cons of each system themselves.

This can be done, and similar things have been done recently (admittedly on a smaller scale):

"ISLAMABAD: All religious sects in the federal capital will pray at the same time from May 1, 2015 and all mosques will call out the Azaan simultaneously.

The committee which made the decision included two clerics from each of the four major sects in the capital- Shia, Barelvi, Deobandi and Ahle Hadith. A member of the committee told Dawn, the major difference in the prayer timings was at Maghrib and the issue was resolved amicably between the committee members."

Obviously, there are some details that need to be handled and potential problems that we need to be prepared for, but this isn't an ideal world. Ideally, all the religious leaders would have everyone's best interest at heart and would do all this by themselves.

So, will you now provide me with some resources, manpower, and the contact details of every major religious leader?

Great suggestions, but how about using scientific astronomic tables to determine the moonrises precisely? There is no valid reason not to have a calendar specifying the dates for such events, is there? Besides, you have not suggested any way to convert a personal belief system into a uniform legal code for all.

Separate religious aspect from social aspect...

Let them celebrate 20 eids if they want...

But implement justice welfare edication....

How do you separate the two aspects when Islam is believed to be a complete code of life?

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

Oh STFU. Any Pakistani citizen, regardless of their religious belief, can discuss whatever they want related to Pakistan. Pakistan is a country for EVERYONE - muslims, non-muslims, secularists, liberals, etc. Although you sound like someone that needs to be taken out by Zarb-e-azb.

I respectfully disagree! And as far as being taken me out by Zarb-e-azb, hahaha! I'll pass that onto chacha jee and see what he can do about it, he still has contacts even though he's retired.

Here's a better offer maybe you can fast track the process and make it happen.

There are too many OURS masair and every single one of those OURS has their own defination of Sharia and defination of who is Muslim

Bhai jaan, yeh parana excuse hai. Navi kal-bow? People make too many excuses when it comes to their deen, can't do namaz kapari saaf neyya, etc. Islam is easy to follow.

That is a beautiful dream indeed

Bhai jaan, Insha'Allah soon it will be a reality. I see secularists as a threat to the entity and security of the land of the pure, because the enemies of Islam know what keeps this blessed land together.

Shaythan does not come to us in Christian, Hindu, etc roob; he comes as a Muslim and deludes the masses and tries to cause divisions in us. Insha'Allah our divisions are soon be over and we'll rise once again as the land of the pure for the purist sons and daughters of Adam as'salaam.

 

[VCheng]

Bhai jaan, Insha'Allah soon it will be a reality. I see secularists as a threat to the entity and security of the land of the pure, because the enemies of Islam know what keeps this blessed land together.

Good luck to you. Is it the secularists who have caused the deaths of 60,000 Pakistanis?

 

[TankMan]

Great suggestions, but how about using scientific astronomic tables to determine the moonrises precisely? There is no valid reason not to have a calendar specifying the dates for such events, is there?

That is how the Umm-al-Qura calendar works, and I suggested having a system similar to that. However, it is not always a 100% accurate.

Besides, you have not suggested any way to convert a personal belief system into a uniform legal code for all.

Let me quote your words:

Let us start with baby steps. Can we get the esteemed Maulana who is the main actor in this thread and other religious leaders to agree on celebrating one Eid across Pakistan?

Of course I have not provided a solution for the entire legal code. That's like saying to a baby "good steps, but you haven't beaten Usain Bolt"

 

[VCheng]

That is how the Umm-al-Qura calendar works, and I suggested having a system similar to that. However, it is not always a 100% accurate.

Let me quote your words:

Of course I have not provided a solution for the entire legal code. That's like saying to a baby "good steps, but you haven't beaten Usain Bolt"

Haha, I like this post of yours. So if the UaQ calender works so well, why cannot it be adopted for Pakistan already? The factors that prevent such a logical solution need to be removed pronto.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

Good luck to you. Is it the secularists who have caused the deaths of 60,000 Pakistanis?

They played their dirty part. Who took money from Amrika to fight their war? To this day, they tell the beggars who are on their payroll ''we're not doing enough''! We had aman pre-2001. We did not have 60,000+ dead, 3,500+ soldiers dead, destruction in infrastructure and economy and being set back for 15 years and our mortal enemy (India) has moved on.

This is what the secularists, back-stabbers did to us because of their greed. Christendom threw bones at them, they went after it like rabid filled dogs and bought time for them.

Never the less Allah is with us and the hypocrites are being exposed! The verse below explains what is going on today!

Allah would not leave the believers in that [state] you are in [presently] until He separates the evil from the good. (Surah Al-Imran v.179)

 

[VCheng]

They played their dirty part. Who took money from Amrika to fight their war? To this day, they tell the beggars who are on their payroll ''we're not doing enough''! We had aman pre-2001. We did not have 60,000+ dead, 3,500+ soldiers dead, destruction in infrastructure and economy and being set back for 15 years and our mortal enemy (India) has moved on.

This is what the secularists, back-stabbers did to us because of their greed. Christendom threw bones at them, they went after it like rabid filled dogs and bought time for them.

Ah yes, the good old "let's blame it all on someone else" strategy. It ain't gonna work.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

Ah yes, the good old "let's blame it all on someone else" strategy. It ain't gonna work.

Teeka bhai jan! Tell me was there a WAR like we've got PRE-2001?