Secular India is a myth

[Dalai Lama]

Lol, an old thread dug up and re-opened and people replying to it.

 

[arihant]

look at the date...


it's from today

That minister is under fire. Going to be suspended soon. Moreover, case has been already registered on the same minister. This is India, you never know who becomes minister. Hopefully we can have more education.

Personally from my view. We should not have any discussion on religion itself (at school off course).

 

[Burnz]

He said the Gita had been taught in schools since 2007 and that some people were trying to create a controversy.

Where were the Muslims and Christians then?

Also Bhagvad Gita is not the Holy Book of Hinduism.

It is a Brief of the Vedas.

Vedas is What Indian culture comes from.

Muslims and Christians are not going to bowed up in front of some other God.

Bhagvad Gita is only like Moral of the Stories.

 

[rajusri]

That minister is under fire. Going to be suspended soon. Moreover, case has been already registered on the same minister. This is India, you never know who becomes minister. Hopefully we can have more education.

If it was in Pakistan than the protesters were sentenced to death by the court for insulting Quran. Minorities are almost uprooted. They have institutionalized blasphemy and now talk about India!!!

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Do not you teach Quran in your country than with what face you talk about this?

nobody ever claimed Pakistan is secular

In your country govt bared minorities to enter their temple as you think their religion is not so important.

while there have been issues surrounding minority rights (we dont deny it) ---there never has been a problem with minorities going to their places of worship.

When did government ban them from doing that? Christians go to their Mosques, Sikhs come (even from india) and go to their temples. In fact, the Katasraj hindu temple was renovated a few years back.

If anyone in Pakistan protest against teaching Quran he/she will be sentenced to death without delay.

can you post some references to prove this claim?


and when you reply, no need for bold letters....that doesnt make your point valid

 

[rajusri]

Where were the Muslims and Christians then?

Also Bhagvad Gita is not the Holy Book of Hinduism.

It is a Brief of the Vedas.

Vedas is What Indian culture comes from.

Muslims and Christians are not going to bowed up in front of some other God.

Bhagvad Gita is only like Moral of the Stories.

Gita has nothing about religion , it is just a philosophical book. Anyway as India is secular no book like Gita will be taught.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

nobody ever claimed Pakistan is secular

What did Jinnah, the Qaid say on 11 Aug 1947 to the Constitution Assembly?

Are you suggesting he did not know what he was saying?

He was totally clear about the rights and religious freedom of ALL Pakistanis IRRESPECTIVE or religion!

That, is by the way, what is Secularism!

 

[rajusri]

nobody ever claimed Pakistan is secular

If you are not secular than stop thinking about those are.

while there have been issues surrounding minority rights (we dont deny it) ---there never has been a problem with minorities going to their places of worship.

When did government ban them from doing that? Christians go to their Mosques, Sikhs come (even from india) and go to their temples. In fact, the Katasraj hindu temple was renovated a few years back.

Really do you even know what happened to the minorities in Pakistan since independence? What was the percentage of them at that time and now? They should be there to suppress the minorities , you just removed them.

can you post some references to prove this claim?

How many people accused of blasphemy? The law itself is a attack on minorities. no modern society can have such law. Religion based fighting riots are not new but a govt or society supporting such middle age law is bad.

The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HCRP) - a voluntary organisation - has been documenting blasphemy cases. It says that Muslims constitute a majority of those booked under these laws, followed by the Ahmadi community. According to HRCP, since 1988 around 1,000 cases have been lodged for desecration of the Koran, while nearly 50 cases have been lodged for blasphemy against the Prophet Muhammad. Lower courts have handed down hundreds of convictions in these cases, but nearly all of them have been reversed by the higher courts due to lack of evidence, faults in due process or obvious wrongful motives on the part of the complainants. Hundreds of Christians are among the accused - at least 12 of them were given the death sentence for blaspheming against the Prophet


BBC News - Q&A: Pakistan's controversial blasphemy laws

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

What did Jinnah, the Qaid say on 11 Aug 1947 to the Constitution Assembly?

Are you suggesting he did not know what he was saying?

Not only did he know what he was saying; but people who call themselves patriotic Pakistanis (myself included) dogmatically cling to those ideals.

I agree with our Father of the Nation --- people should be free to go to their Mosques, temples and other places of worship without interference by the state.


What's your point?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

If you are not secular than stop thinking about those are.

i juat find it amusing that a country claims to be ''secular'' when in fact religious extremism and intolerance in that country is still rampant ....does it affect me more than it affects the Christians or Muslims in india? No, it doesnt.

but it's definitely worth pointing out

Really do you even know what happened to the minorities in Pakistan since independence? What was the percentage of them at that time and now? They should be there to suppress the minorities , you just removed them.

some did leave; but no more than the amount of mass migrations taking place from india for the same reason (how many indian Muslims fled to Kenya, how many Sikhs fled to Thailand, Canada, and even Pakistan)...list goes on.

There are still minorities in Pakistan --we have Parsis, Sikhs, Hindus, a sizeable Christian population. In fact, I myself belong to a minority group!

How many people accused of blasphemy? The law itself is a attack on minorities. no modern society can have such law. Religion based fighting riots are not new but a govt or society supporting such middle age law is bad.

I personally dont agree with those who feel we need to have the law.

but in actuality, it isnt the law that discriminates at all....its people who have mis-used the law. Actually, more Muslims have been charged with violating the law.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Abu Zulfiqar,

there never has been a problem with minorities going to their places of worship.

Checked the issue of the Sikh scared shrine, Nankana Sahib, in Lahore?

Panjab Radio UK reports that Sikhs in Nanakana Sahib, Pakistan have come under attack by a local mob of Muslim youth. Sikhs have been threatened that their shops will be burned if they didn't leave till Monday. It has also been reported that Pakistan Army has come to the site. UK Sikh delegations have contacted Pakistani Embassy, and various Muslim leaders to solve the situation.
Sikhs in Pakistan under Attack!

Since the partition of India and the creation of Pakistan Sikhs had been denied access and management of the historical Gurdwaras for many years. Hence, the Ardas (Sikh Rehat Maryada) contained a stanza which we have been using for years requesting for the ability to manage the historical sites in Pakistan. Attempts were made by Sikhs all over the world by creating the Nanakana Sahib Foundation and The SGPC Pakistan to move in this direction. Some developments did take place with the earlier governments of Pakistan which resulted in the removal of some travel restrictions for Sikhs. Many Sikhs from the US, UK, Europe and Malaysia have worked hard to restore the Gurdwara buildings and other structures. Some financial assistance and welfare programs have been initiated in the last ten years. Despite this the management of all the Gurdwaras is under the Wakaf Boards who manage all the property belonging to the Gurdwaras. Some of the land especially in Nanakana Sahib has been under the control of many Muslim families for generations and they will not part with it. (information gathered from Gangga Singh Dillion).
Saving Gurdwaras in Pakistan



I would not have raised these, but for your incorrect assertions.

BTW, Ganga Singh Dhillon is the head of the Dal Khalsa. He is a Khalistani!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Not only did he know what he was saying; but people who call themselves patriotic Pakistanis (myself included) dogmatically cling to those ideals.

I agree with our Father of the Nation --- people should be free to go to their Mosques, temples and other places of worship without interference by the state.


What's your point?

Didn't get it when it is crystal clear.

The short answer is - that is what is secularism, which you appear to be questioning.

I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shias, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish. Indeed if you ask me, this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free people long long ago. No power can hold another nation, and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time, but for this. Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. .................................


We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation.

Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.
Text of Jinnah's 11th August Speech | Pak Tea House

That is to refresh your memory.

And also tell you that is what is meant by secularism.

Got the point, now?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Didn't get it when it is crystal clear.

The short answer is - that is what is secularism, which you appear to be questioning.



That is to refresh your memory.

And also tell you that is what is meant by secularism.

Got the point, now?

and maybe you're either blind or just overlooked thousands of posts I have made in favour of such ideals; though at the same time i am not in a position to enact or repeal the laws (it isnt my goal or my interest)

I wouldnt exactly be averse to adding (for further clarification, unless you're still confused) that Jinnah Sahib wouldnt be happy if he knew about some of the ongoing political or religious issues in Pakistan. But unlike you people, we dont deny our problems. We admit them openly and discuss them (like what we do on this forum)


however I dont think that the religious discrimination taking place in Pakistan is anywhere even remotely NEAR the amount of it taking place in india; nor is the communal problem in Pakistan any worse than what it is in india...if it was, we'd have had many Gujrats by now, which luckily, we have not.




as for the Sikh thing you posted, that article is over 7 years old. You are well aware that Sikhs are very much free to practice their religion in Pakistan. In fact, many many Sikh pilgrims come by train from hindustan annually --since many of their holy sites are in Pakistani soil. They face no problems at all.


Dont take my word for it though.



Sikhs find peace in northwest Pakistan - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

 

[sivadreams]

and maybe you're either blind or just overlooked thousands of posts I have made in favour of such ideals; though at the same time i am not in a position to enact or repeal the laws (it isnt my goal or my interest)

I wouldnt exactly be averse to adding (for further clarification, unless you're still confused) that Jinnah Sahib wouldnt be happy if he knew about some of the ongoing political or religious issues in Pakistan. But unlike you people, we dont deny our problems. We admit them openly and discuss them (like what we do on this forum)

however I dont think that the religious discrimination taking place in Pakistan is anywhere even remotely NEAR the amount of it taking place in india; nor is the communal problem in Pakistan any worse than what it is in india...if it was, we'd have had many Gujrats by now, which luckily, we have not.

as for the Sikh thing you posted, that article is over 7 years old. You are well aware that Sikhs are very much free to practice their religion in Pakistan. In fact, many many Sikh pilgrims come by train from hindustan annually --since many of their holy sites are in Pakistani soil. They face no problems at all.

Dont take my word for it though.

Sikhs find peace in northwest Pakistan - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

I know you are hippo-crate with the above mentioned incident. I am not here to compare India & Pakistan and its society fabric. just wanted to point out that Gujarat riots happened in 2002.

The point is unless you talk to people here. I am talking about the majority of the minority community they will tell the truth. I/We dont bother about any of your pointing outs as we have moved on.

Yes we do have our fair share of problems and India has always done corrections more faster than any world countries. The same Gujarat is vibrating where muslims are still well to do families and they do support Modi for his governance. Gujarat is a shame event for us but we made sure its not being repeated. There is checks and balance in our political system inbuilt that no single party can run its agenda be it BJP or Congress. In-spite of vast political differences we have a strong secular governance and the only common problem which as a country struggling to come to terms with is corruption.

I am sure with the recent events taking place even corruption index will go down by the end of next decade.

 

[fallstuff]

There is nothing secular about India. It is in upto its eyeballs in communal-ism. The hindu right wing nut-case bjp was the government elected by the secular India.