SECOND TYPE 054 A/P FRIGATE PNS TAIMUR COMMISSIONED AT CHINA| June 2022 .

[CodeforFood]

Mughal are Tatars not mongols. From same Central Asia, Persian mistook them as mongols but Mughals don’t even look like mongols.

Mughals have mixed ancestory due to the concern Taimur had about his own ancestory so he took a mongol wife. His tenure has been more of disaster for turk nation in general then constructive is all what i meant. And muslims in general. Elkhanis were more product for muslims in generals if really want to get some positive out of that.

 

[iLION12345_1]

I would suggest that China's electronic industry is far ahead of France, Germany, and Italy.

Telecommunications, radar, networking equipment. I mean if we look at AESA, Type 346 was fielded well before Europeans, Space based telecommunications and networking even sensors for tracking ballistic missiles and things like hypersonic aircraft. 5G, now 6G, electronics devices basically in every form from consumer to industry use.

In electronics generally Japan, China, Taiwan, South Korea, Germany, and USA are leaders, then come Sweden, UK, and France and then others. France and Germany have their specialty areas but overall, neither has 5G tech even. 5G ecosystem is like several hundred pieces of technologies. What about space based encrypted quantum tech... lidar sensors for autonomous cars, LED modules, AESA modules and so on. Lots of examples. But Type 054A uses older electronics for certain and it is an aging ship.

Simply the 054A is just a very lower tier ship for Chinese navy and it is also old. Therefore there is little doubt most of its major electronics are outdated compared to the latest European ones.

Babur may not receive all the best of what Europe has. Just like it would be incorrect to assume PN's Type 054AP will also receive upgrades of what China has. In fact on that we know it does not. It simply has what old 054A has but with a few new radars and maybe command modules fitted to suit PN specifically in terms of use and language etc.

Overall, Babur's firepower cannot compare. 054A is a bigger ship and due to older age and design but we shouldn't ignore that 054A carries basically twice the raw firepower than Babur. It doesn't use its weight well compared to more modern ships though but it's also not terrible in this department either.

054A's VLS cannot quad pack unlike 052D and 055 but if HQ-16 can be upgraded to really make use of its size, then it should easily exceed 100km range. They just want to pack a giant warhead on this missile for whatever reason. YJ-83 is also too old and not capable and if the 8 slant launchers can be upgraded to fire YJ-12 then that will be a huge upgrade in anti surface. However it requires some networking equipment to CEC and needs longer range radars and over the horizon radars or rely on network but PN and PAF do not have the compatibility or the platforms for YJ-12 guidance.

This means 054A is mostly for anti-sub mainly. Barely able to defend itself with just what it has in air defence limited in sensors with 054A against major attacks. Babur also not that great in AD due to only carrying 16 SAMs and one single smaller CIWS. Out of the three services, PN certainly is the least capable but luckily India's naval capabilities are not impressive and they have a very, VERY weak submarine force. Still they do have two carriers and a handful of modern ships, all more modern and more firepower than 054A and Babur - Vish class, Kolkatta, and even their best frigate is pretty decent. This means PAF has a role to play in case of anything.

Hopefully China can deliver some ASBM of older generations for the purpose of sinking major Indian ships in case of naval war. They can have deniability if the ASBM are operated by Chinese forces inside Pakistan. Satellites cannot tell Chinese from Pakistanis if Pakistani uniforms are worn. Can always just claim these were sold to Pakistan and China doesn't have to worry about opsec if only Chinese crew operate first gen ASBMs.

Everyone’s entitled to an opinion, but I don’t think China is ahead of German parts and machine quality or European electronics quality just yet, especially on a large-scale industry level. I don’t mean defense tech, I meant technology in general, and industry standards back that up. Most companies would buy German machinery over Chinese, even basic electronic components coming out of China have such a large spectrum of quality that it’s just easier to go with the European option nine times out of ten.

I mean absolutely no offense to you or the other people on this forum but Chinese defense technology is massively overrated at times (just as it is massively underrated equally, there’s really no balance). Most recently their work with GaN Modules for radars (because there is none). The belief that China is somehow leading the world in GaN radar tech as is often brought up on this forum makes me and many others scratch our heads waiting for any sort of proof, study, research or model to back these claims up.

That’s not to say China isn’t a world leader in technology, it absolutely is, and it’s the biggest producer at the same time (and the biggest market), it’s just not realistic to assume that China can reach the same quality in 20 years as other nations did in hundreds of years while also having better infrastructure, but that’s a very long and convoluted argument for another time.

Coming to the topic at hand. I meant to say exactly what you did, PNs 054As are not the best of what China makes, my comparison is solely for the PN ships, if PLAN has better ones that doesn’t matter to me, I know they do. 054A is just a cheap second line ship for them, if they wanted they could massively upgrade it. They certainly have the money and tech, but they don’t need to do that. Even the latest PLAN 054A is still using HQ16, YJ83 and the same underpowered propulsion. It did however get upgraded illuminators that the PN 054As didn’t.

I would pick the Babur over a 054A, you already answered why many times, because while the 054A could be better if they gave it modern SAMs and ASHMs like you mentioned, they haven’t done so yet, not even in PLAN service, by that logic the Babur can be massively upgraded as well. So even if it’s carrying twice the amount of missiles, If they’re that old and can’t be guided/fired as efficiently or as quickly, then they certainly don’t make up for it by numbers. Not to mention the 054A is considerably underpowered in the engine department when compared to ships of the same size as well. Again, that’s not because it’s a bad ship, that’s because it’s what PLAN needs from it, but that doesn’t count for the PN, for the PN we need to look at it as a standalone ship.

 

[serenity]

Not only is GaN applied in many radars in Chinese military, it has been for many years already.

The evidence you seek are mostly in Chinese or official leaks and official information usually in the form of an announcement for example it could be "Destroyer X during Exercise at Y demonstrated the superior effectiveness of GaN based radar technology" and then another leak would be a conference or briefing. There are countless papers talking about this usually public domain stuff. The military has been using GaN for a while already. Type 346B certainly uses GaN. This is true for J-20's radar and certain early warning radars and special electronic aircraft - AWACS, ELINT, Anti-sub types and so on.

Illuminators would be same of PN's? why would they not leave those upgrades out? The PN 054A does receive a better main radar as it is serving as frontline ship for PN. It is a shame the 054AP isn't upgraded to YJ-12 capable and HHQ-16 overall is just getting very old but it's a more versatile missile than CAMM-ER or indeed any mid range SAM. HHQ-16 can perform secondary anti-ship role or anti-surface and extend range far beyond 100km in that operating mode due to ballistic firing trajectory. However this is really of quite limited use as it does not replace dedicated anti-surface missiles.

Babur is modern but it is extremely lightly armed. If Babur can double its weapons load and available power for sensors and electronics then it is great but it is limited by size. 054AP is limited by age and modernity.

Overall neither are really great frigates or corvettes but they may be considered good enough. May be. Against IN, the advantage Pakistan has is India's relative weakness in submarines but their surface fleet is much more modern and in greater numbers. In army and airforce there is considerable strength from Pakistan and a good force for deterrence, in navy, there is not much. Type 039A is old too I'm not sure if PN has those submarines. But to counter IN completely, ASBM is required. Would be excellent chance for China to use some first generation ASBM and provide them to Pakistan.

 

[huanghong]

Everyone’s entitled to an opinion, but I don’t think China is ahead of German parts and machine quality or European electronics quality just yet, especially on a large-scale industry level. I don’t mean defense tech, I meant technology in general, and industry standards back that up. Most companies would buy German machinery over Chinese, even basic electronic components coming out of China have such a large spectrum of quality that it’s just easier to go with the European option nine times out of ten.

I mean absolutely no offense to you or the other people on this forum but Chinese defense technology is massively overrated at times (just as it is massively underrated equally, there’s really no balance). Most recently their work with GaN Modules for radars (because there is none). The belief that China is somehow leading the world in GaN radar tech as is often brought up on this forum makes me and many others scratch our heads waiting for any sort of proof, study, research or model to back these claims up.

That’s not to say China isn’t a world leader in technology, it absolutely is, and it’s the biggest producer at the same time (and the biggest market), it’s just not realistic to assume that China can reach the same quality in 20 years as other nations did in hundreds of years while also having better infrastructure, but that’s a very long and convoluted argument for another time.

Coming to the topic at hand. I meant to say exactly what you did, PNs 054As are not the best of what China makes, my comparison is solely for the PN ships, if PLAN has better ones that doesn’t matter to me, I know they do. 054A is just a cheap second line ship for them, if they wanted they could massively upgrade it. They certainly have the money and tech, but they don’t need to do that. Even the latest PLAN 054A is still using HQ16, YJ83 and the same underpowered propulsion. It did however get upgraded illuminators that the PN 054As didn’t.

I would pick the Babur over a 054A, you already answered why many times, because while the 054A could be better if they gave it modern SAMs and ASHMs like you mentioned, they haven’t done so yet, not even in PLAN service, by that logic the Babur can be massively upgraded as well. So even if it’s carrying twice the amount of missiles, If they’re that old and can’t be guided/fired as efficiently or as quickly, then they certainly don’t make up for it by numbers. Not to mention the 054A is considerably underpowered in the engine department when compared to ships of the same size as well. Again, that’s not because it’s a bad ship, that’s because it’s what PLAN needs from it, but that doesn’t count for the PN, for the PN we need to look at it as a standalone ship.

As early as 2015, the foreign trade radar SLC-7 sold to the outside world has used GAN components, and even the SLC-2 radar sold to Pakistan has a GAN transmitting antenna.

 

[Super Falcon]

Very impressive firepower they posses hopefully we improve our Defence production to get our systems installed on them

 

[Tipu7]

REMINDER:

Thread is about commissioning of a warship, not a history lesson.

 

[arslank03]

Not only is GaN applied in many radars in Chinese military, it has been for many years already.

The evidence you seek are mostly in Chinese or official leaks and official information usually in the form of an announcement for example it could be "Destroyer X during Exercise at Y demonstrated the superior effectiveness of GaN based radar technology" and then another leak would be a conference or briefing. There are countless papers talking about this usually public domain stuff. The military has been using GaN for a while already. Type 346B certainly uses GaN. This is true for J-20's radar and certain early warning radars and special electronic aircraft - AWACS, ELINT, Anti-sub types and so on.

Illuminators would be same of PN's? why would they not leave those upgrades out? The PN 054A does receive a better main radar as it is serving as frontline ship for PN. It is a shame the 054AP isn't upgraded to YJ-12 capable and HHQ-16 overall is just getting very old but it's a more versatile missile than CAMM-ER or indeed any mid range SAM. HHQ-16 can perform secondary anti-ship role or anti-surface and extend range far beyond 100km in that operating mode due to ballistic firing trajectory. However this is really of quite limited use as it does not replace dedicated anti-surface missiles.

Babur is modern but it is extremely lightly armed. If Babur can double its weapons load and available power for sensors and electronics then it is great but it is limited by size. 054AP is limited by age and modernity.

Overall neither are really great frigates or corvettes but they may be considered good enough. May be. Against IN, the advantage Pakistan has is India's relative weakness in submarines but their surface fleet is much more modern and in greater numbers. In army and airforce there is considerable strength from Pakistan and a good force for deterrence, in navy, there is not much. Type 039A is old too I'm not sure if PN has those submarines. But to counter IN completely, ASBM is required. Would be excellent chance for China to use some first generation ASBM and provide them to Pakistan.

HQ-16 is more versatile? lol no.

CAMM-ER ACTUALLY has a secondary anti ship role. CAMM-ER is also 1/7th the weight of HQ-16 and also has greater range. It is also not limited by illuminators.

The 054A latest batch of PLAN has better AESA illuminators which allow more missiles per illuminator.

The max range of the current ones is 30km, with 2 missiles per channel, so MAX 8 missiles at a time, 2 per illuminator. CANNOT handle swarm attacks.

The Babur and Jinnah have a far nicer missile loadout but are limited by the VLS choice and space.

 

[huanghong]

HQ-16 is more versatile? lol no.

CAMM-ER ACTUALLY has a secondary anti ship role. CAMM-ER is also 1/7th the weight of HQ-16 and also has greater range. It is also not limited by illuminators.

The 054A latest batch of PLAN has better AESA illuminators which allow more missiles per illuminator.

The max range of the current ones is 30km, with 2 missiles per channel, so MAX 8 missiles at a time, 2 per illuminator. CANNOT handle swarm attacks.

The Babur and Jinnah have a far nicer missile loadout but are limited by the VLS choice and space.

The weight of CAMM-ER is 160kg, the range is 40km, and the speed is 3 Mach.
The weight of this missile cannot be 1/7 of the weight of HQ-16, which means that the weight of HQ-16 reached 1120kg.
It is difficult to understand why the MR-90 radar continues to be used on 054AP, which means that it is impossible to use the new version of the 054A upper range of 70km improved HQ-16.

 

[arslank03]

The weight of CAMM-ER is 160kg, the range is 40km, and the speed is 3 Mach.
The weight of this missile cannot be 1/7 of the weight of HQ-16, which means that the weight of HQ-16 reached 1120kg.
It is difficult to understand why the MR-90 radar continues to be used on 054AP, which means that it is impossible to use the new version of the 054A upper range of 70km improved HQ-16.

Apologies, i cited CAMM weight, which is 1/7th of the HQ-16s.

CAMM has also been tested and recorded to get kills at 60km, obviously against 'easier' targets.

CAMM-ER has a range GREATER than 45km. Its top speed is not noted anywhere. Its a far, far superior missile in every single aspect.

 

[CHI RULES]

Hi,

Taimur was THE WORST thing that happened to the islamic world after the mongol invasion.

Taimur should be judged in spectrum of his military victories rather on moral grounds. We need worst to counter worst ever. One should not mind even if navy considers Genghis name for a future destroyer with long range SAMs and ballistic missiles a real threat to our foes internationally. We are ridiculously slow to counter our foes. India building Naval stations in Mauritius and other parts of world meanwhile we have not publicly armed or declared to Arm our naval assets with with long range ballistic missiles or CMs. We have option to arm our naval assets at least with Babur cm 900 KM+ variant.

We should arm at least our coming Type 54 frigates with 1000 KM+ missiles so they may hit targets at long ranges. It is still satisfactory to see that up coming frigates have capable medium range SAMs and 500 to 600 KM range missiles capable of dual role. But they are not enough. If possible type 22P frigates should also be modernized.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Beautiful ship with immense capabilities. The navy is growing strong.

Mash'Allah. Yes it is a beautiful ship.

But I also want Pakistan to do joint ventures with China on passenger planes as well like these:

We did this project:

Improve the Economy, though.

 

[CSAW]

The 3rd and 4th Ship ready for delivery & Sea Trials.

The debate between CAMM Albatros system of MILGEMs Babur class vs HQ-16 SAMs should be done considering that PN has invested in two different sources i.e China & West [Turkiye STM / MBDA] to keep a mix of things & to move towards Jinnah.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653282570979934208