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SD-10 vs AIM-120 (Latest versions)

The questions are....

Would SD-10 can be used with Griffo radars?

If YES, then
Can SD-10 also be used in with F-7PG and Mirage ROSE?

From Wikipedia

The Italian FIAR (now SELEX Galileo) Grifo 2000/16, has been offered to the Pakistan Air Force for installation on the J-10, should the PAF induct the aircraft

If the Chinese are offering Grifo on J-10 it means that they have integrated the SD-10 with Grifo on that platform. Ofering the J-10 with Grifo and no SD-10 would not make any sense.

Based on this report I am pretty confident that the SD-10 shall also be compatible or shall be made compatible with existing Grifo Radars installed in F-7 PGs and Mirages
 
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China discloses new SD-10 combat capabilities
By Robert Hewson


China's SD-10 beyond visual range air-to-air missile (AAM) may be a considerably more capable weapon than has hitherto been believed. Officials from the SD-10's manufacturer, the Luoyang Electro-Optical Technology Development Centre (LOEC), say the SD-10 was designed from the beginning to function with a dual-mode seeker operating in distinct active and passive radar homing modes. If so, the SD-10 (and current production SD-10A) are the first AAMs to enter service with this acknowledged capability.

In lengthy discussions with LOEC at the Airshow China 2010 in Zhuhai between 16-21 November, the operating modes of the SD-10 were described to Jane's in detail. The missile has an active-radar terminal homing capability which has been public knowledge since the first details of the SD-10 were officially released in the middle of the last decade.

What has remained unspoken until now is the missile's claimed ability to home in on radar or electronic warfare emissions from the target aircraft, without support from the launch aircraft or use of the missile's own active seeker modes.

A LOEC official told Jane's that the passive mode was not intended to be the missile's primary targeting method - and cited the risks to friendly aircraft when relying on passive guidance mode alone. It is not clear if the SD-10's seeker can continuously alternate between active and passive modes in flight, or if it makes a less sophisticated 'one time' switch.
 
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Development:

The SD-10 active-radar BVR air-to-air missile is now the highest priority air-to-air weapons programme for China's military industry, and has supplanted several previous developmental projects (such as the PL-10 and PL-11) in terms of effort and importance. When, and if, it enters service, it should provide the People's Liberation Army Air Force with a sophisticated, indigenous airborne weapon that will complement, to some degree the Russian-supplied R-27/R-77 missiles that equip the PLAAF's Sukhoi Su-27 and Su-30 force.
The SD-10 (perhaps known also as the PL-12) is evolving under aegis of the Beijing-based China National Aero Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC), while work on various aspects of the programme is underway at a number of different technical centres around the country. The SD-10 is listed as part of CATIC's current 'Thunder-Lightning' family of air-to-air missiles, that includes the PL-5E, PL-9C and TY-90 systems (all developed by the Luoyang Electro-Optical Technology Development Center). However, confusion surrounds the provenance, and even the designation, of the SD-10 programme. 'SD-10' is the export designation of a national programme that may, or may not be, the PL-12.
The PL-12 designation has also been associated with a notional air-to-air development of China's LY-60 surface-to-air missile, but the actual status of this development effort is unclear. The SD-10 on the other hand is a very real programme.
Prior to the emergence of the SD-10, China's active radar seeker AAM development programme was sometimes identified as the 'AMR-1'. During Air Show China 1996, held during November in Zhuhai, the China Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute/No 607 Research Institute exhibited a newly-developed active radar seeker, the AMR-1. This seeker was, in turn, believed to have been applied to a new air-to-air missile design, derived from the LY-60 surface-to-air missile, and dubbed the 'PL-12'. This active radar missile, and the earlier semi-active radar homing PL-11, seemed to have a common design heritage with the Italian Aspide missile, supplied to China during the late 1980s. The status of the PL-11 and 'LY-60/PL-12' development programmes is unclear, but sources within CATIC say these earlier programmes have all been abandoned in favour of the SD-10.
The existence of the SD-10 programme was acknowledged by Chinese officials for the first time in early 2002 (the first pictures of the new missile appeared from Chinese sources during 2001). According to CATIC sources the missile has a range of 80 km. Earlier speculation around the AMR-1/LY-60 programme suggested that a ramjet engine was being developed for it, and such a powerplant would allow a missile to be effective at such long ranges. All available models and artist's impressions of the SD-10 released to date clearly show a rocket-powered missile with a conventional airframe configuration. However, unidentified models of a notional ramjet-powered air-to-air missile have been shown in China and so an enhanced propulsion solution may be under consideration, or even under development, for the SD-10. According to a CATIC engineer, speaking in February 2002, several SD-10 test firings have already been undertaken, and most of the SD-10's subsystems testing had been completed (although the missile was not yet ready for service).

Description

The SD-10 is outwardly very similar to the US-designed AIM-120 AMRAAM. The two share a comparable aerodynamic configuration, although with a length of 3.85m, a diameter of 20.3 cm and a weight of 180 kg the SD-10 is a little longer, wider and heavier than the AMRAAM. The SD-10 has four rear-mounted control fins that each have a very distinctive notch cut into their base. These fins are longer and more prominent than those of the AMRAAM and are cropped at an angle (rather than in line with the missile body). Four larger triangular fins are fixed to the mid-section of the missile. Internally, the leading edge of the centrebody fins is in line with the start of the missile's rocket motor. That motor is a variable-thrust sold rocket booster, that offers two levels of motive power for different sections of the flight envelope.
CATIC is known to be developing X-band and Ku-band active radar seekers, which may be intended for the SD-10. However the latest reports confirm that China has been co-operating closely with Russia's AGAT Research Institute, based in Moscow, and that AGAT is the source of the SD-10's essential active seeker. This joint development effort (perhaps with the name 'Project 129') has reportedly seen the supply of AGAT's 9B-1348 active-radar seeker (developed for the Vympel R-77, AA-12 'Adder') to China for integration with a Chinese-developed missile, the SD-10. Alternatively, technology from AGAT's 9B-1103M seeker family may be offered to China. Russia is also the source for the missile's inertial navigation system and datalink.
The SD-10 has four engagement modes. To take the greatest advantage of its maximum range it will use a mix of command guidance (via a datalink) plus its own inertial guidance before entering the active radar terminal guidance phase. The missile can also be launched to a pre-selected point, using its strap-down inertial system, before switching on its own seeker for a terminal search. Over short ranges the missile can be launched in a 'fire-and-forget' mode using its own active seeker from the outset. Finally, the SD-10 has a 'home-on-jam' mode that allows it to passively track and engage an emitting target, without ever using its own active radar or a radar from the launch aircraft. The seeker is connected to a digital flight control system that uses signal processing techniques to track a target. The missile's warhead is linked to a laser proximity fuse.
The SD-10 is claimed to have an operational ceiling of 20 km, with a maximum effective range of 70 km and a minimum engagement range of 1,000 m. The missile has a 40 g manoeuvring limit and, according to CATIC, it has been tested for a 100-hour captive 'live flight' life.

Operational status

The SD-10 is not yet believed to be in PLAAF service, but is in an advanced stage of development and may have been released for operational test and evaluation with the air force. According to CATIC, the SD-10 can be carried by a range of aircraft including the J-7 (F-7), J-8 (F- and MiG-series fighters, or any Western aircraft that have been fitted with the missile's PF95 launcher and pylon. The obvious radar limitations of these aircraft make it clear that they will probably never be fitted with the SD-10, at least in Chinese service. While trials firings have probably been conducted using Shenyang J-8 testbeds, it is believed that the SD-10/PL-12 programme is intended, initially, to equip China's fleet of Su-27 (J-11) 'Flankers' as part of a wider nationally-sourced capability enhancement for the PLAAF's 'Flanker' force.
The other potential applications for the SD-10/PL-12 in Chinese service are on the Chengdu J-10 next-generation combat aircraft now under development, perhaps the upgraded Shenyang J-8M 'Finback' and the CATIC FC-1/Super 7 lightweight multirole combat aircraft being developed jointly by China and Pakistan. During 2001 officials at Pakistan's National Development Complex confirmed that the NDC was conducting study/development work on a new active-radar missile programme, a possible reference to the SD-10. Certainly the most prominent 'public appearance' of the SD-10 to date has been on the full-size mock-up of the FC-1/Super 7. Pakistan has established a national production line for the Italian Galileo Avionica (formerly FIAR) Grifo 7 multimode fire-control radar at its Kamra Avionics and Radar Facility. A version of the Grifo radar (Grifo S7) is being developed for the FC-1/Super 7, and the Grifo is already fitted to Pakistan's Chengdu F-7PGs. In July 2002 Galileo Avionica confirmed that it would be offering the latest development of the Grifo radar, the Grifo 2000/16, as a candidate radar for the J-10 once its entered the production phase. Galileo Avionics describes the Grifo 2000/16 (originally designed as a radar for F-16 upgrades) as a modern, modular, multimode radar with enhanced air-to-air capabilities that is compatible with modern BVR missiles.
 
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2010-12-01 (China Military News cited from Janes.com and written by Robert Hewson) -- China's SD-10 medium-range air-to-air missile (AAM), as exhibited at Airshow China earlier in November, may be a considerably more capable weapon than was hitherto believed, Jane's understands.

Officials from the SD-10's manufacturer, the Luoyang Electro-Optical Technology Development Center (LOEC), said the missile was designed from the beginning to function with a dual-mode seeker operating in distinct active and passive radar homing modes. If so, the SD-10 is the first AAM to enter service with this acknowledged capability.



There have been suggestions that the latest AIM-120D Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air missile (AMRAAM) developed by Raytheon for the US Air Force and Navy has a similar dual-mode seeker capability. The full capabilities of the AIM-120D remain classified, but its development has been problematic and it has yet to enter operational service.

The SD-10 - the current production version is the refined SD-10A - has been cleared for service on the Chengdu J-10 and late-model versions of the Shenyang J-8 combat aircraft. By the end of this year the missile is expected to be operational with the PAC JF-17s of the pakistan Air Force.

In lengthy discussions with LOEC at the 16-21 November Airshow China exhibition, the operating modes of the SD-10A were set out to Jane's in detail. The missile has an active terminal homing capability, which has been openly described since the first details of the SD-10 were made public in the middle of the last decade
 
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Anyway is there any mention on Flight trajectory of the SD-10 ? is that more than 70km range is achieved through utilization of "Loft Glide (Boost-Sustain-Coast-Glide)" trajectory or "straight ahead (Boost-Sustain-Coast)"

hmm as far as i know typical AAM use a loft glide trajectory to extend range farther than "Straight trajectory , the AMRAAM uses such flightshceme to achieve its "100km+" range .

In my opinon if the SD-10 can achieve its 100 km range through "straight ahead" trajectory (assume it's launched in "ideal" altitude which i usually put in 12.000 meters) its range in Loft Glide mode.. would be longer depending on the Lift to drag Ratio of the AAM's , as far as i know typical L/D ratio for Axisymmetric missile is usually lower than lifting body but typically reach 3-4.

The range can be found by multiplying the Apogee (the peak altitude reached by the missile) by the L/D ratio of the missile , hmm let's say the SD-10 launched from that 12.000 meters altitude is able to reach 35000 meters in apogee , at the altitude the SD-10 will commence gliding with L/D max (let's say 4) with optimum Angle of attack .

The range would be : 4*35000 = 140.000 meters or over 140 km addition .
 
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SD-10 is succeffully developed (which is close), n will be integrated with GRIFO.....then I feel that 200 Mirage n F7's will surve for some more years alng BVR capabilities.

800px-Chengdu_F-7_Pakistani_Air_Force.jpg



mirageExocet.jpg
 
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SD-10 is succeffully developed (which is close), n will be integrated with GRIFO.....then I feel that 200 Mirage n F7's will surve for some more years alng BVR capabilities.

800px-Chengdu_F-7_Pakistani_Air_Force.jpg



mirageExocet.jpg




well,

They still have to serve until at least 2015.

That's 4 years away!!
 
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Jane's: China’s SD-10 missile performance



According to JDW (Jane's Defense Weekly) December 01, 2010 issue, the Chinese made SD-10 BVR AAM maker LOTDC (Luoyang Optoelectronic Technology Development Center) has claimed that SD-10 from the very start was designed to use dual Active plus Passive guidance systems. If so then SD-10 will become the first BVR AAM commissioned to date, with such exceptional capabilities.

At the end of November, during Zhuhai Air Show, LOTDC described in detail the guidance system of SD-10 to JDW. Broad public awareness exists about the guidance and tracking system of the earlier SD-10s but according to JDW, the latest details go well beyond this and include the missile-oriented target tracking system and ECM capabilities.

An LOTDC official claimed that the Passive Homing Mode isn’t the primary mode of guidance for SD-10 since it can potentially be harmful for the friendly aircraft.

At present it isn’t clear whether SD-10 continuously switches back and forth between the Active and Passive Modes or both can be used continuously.


Russia is also helping LOTDC in the R&D of SD-10.

An LOTDC official said, "We can manufacture the seeker ourselves but we need the Russian help to keep improving it.”

He also accepted that some parts are still imported.

In Russia, AGAT Design Bureau has designed several dual seekers that may be using Active, Semi-Active and Passive Modes but their Active and Passive Mode homing is programmed to switch according to a pre-set sequence.

AGAT Design Bureau claimed that in the Passive Mode, their detectors can detect the radar emissions of an airplane from almost a distance of about 200 km while in the Active Mode, the seeker only has a range of about 20 km.

Back in the 1990s, China’s 9B-1032 Passive Anti-Radiation Seeker had a maximum detection range of about 240 km. May be this same seeker is now the Passive Seeker of SD-10.

According to some experts, ECM capability of SD-10 is quite good; effective against several types of electronic interferences that basically cover the whole range of the current types of the electronic interferences.


The performance of SD-10 is better than the US AIM-120 A & B, Russian R-77 and Mica of France.

LOTDC has identified two versions of this missile only: SD-10 and the current SD-10A.

SD-10A has a number of changes in its design but the most important improvement are its added stability and its additional load carrying capacity.

SD-10 is quite versatile and can be used by a variety of advanced fighters. With the cooperation of Brazil, ‘xiaolong’ fighters (JF-17) were able to launch SD-10 missiles.

An LOTDC official said that most of the R&D work of the SD-10 is complete except may be some minor fine-tuning of the rocket motor.

Also, in future, some SD-10 versions may be used as SAMs by the Army and Navy as well.

(Compilation: Ssu-nien)
 
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i think SD 10 will do fine aainst indians in a war becoz i have faith on chinese systems becoz they make them specially to kick the indian aces
 
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During modern air combat, beside the pilot skill, the next important thing is the beyond visual range (BVR) capability of each fighter. This is determined by the avionics and medium range missile capability. F-22?s avionic is one generation more advanced than any Sukhoi family or whatever in Chinese inventory. However, the missiles are still quite comparable.



AIM-120 AMRAAM
F-22 probably has a most advanced missile. Its AIM-120D AMRAAM has a range 95 km, combined with a sophisticated avionics, makes F-22 a most lethal fighter. Russia R-77 (AA-12) although has been claimed to posses better maneuverability and range (175 km), it does not have any combat experience yet. Also, the avionics systems on board Sukhoi and Mig jet fighters are less proven than their American counterpart. On the other hand, China recently produce it latest missile, the SD-10 that is used in its J-10 and J-11 fighters. It has a range of 80 km, making it is comparable to AIM-120C.


By judging from the specification, R-77 could be the best BVR missile in service today. It only need some combat experience to prove its capability. AIM-120C had been used effectively during Kosovo and Iraq Wars. Lastly, SD-10, although still inferior to both American dan Russian have, has shown a great potential of Chinese future military technology.
 
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During modern air combat, beside the pilot skill, the next important thing is the beyond visual range (BVR) capability of each fighter. This is determined by the avionics and medium range missile capability. F-22?s avionic is one generation more advanced than any Sukhoi family or whatever in Chinese inventory. However, the missiles are still quite comparable.



AIM-120 AMRAAM
F-22 probably has a most advanced missile. Its AIM-120D AMRAAM has a range 95 km, combined with a sophisticated avionics, makes F-22 a most lethal fighter. Russia R-77 (AA-12) although has been claimed to posses better maneuverability and range (175 km), it does not have any combat experience yet. Also, the avionics systems on board Sukhoi and Mig jet fighters are less proven than their American counterpart. On the other hand, China recently produce it latest missile, the SD-10 that is used in its J-10 and J-11 fighters. It has a range of 80 km, making it is comparable to AIM-120C.


By judging from the specification, R-77 could be the best BVR missile in service today. It only need some combat experience to prove its capability. AIM-120C had been used effectively during Kosovo and Iraq Wars. Lastly, SD-10, although still inferior to both American dan Russian have, has shown a great potential of Chinese future military technology.

Sorry if this has been explained before but I have been very curious as to how big of an advantage the massive range advantage provides the r-77? Even if we are to assume that none of these missiles will be used from their maximum distance, the r-77 will be fired far earlier than a sd-10 no? The Americans can afford to have a shorter range missile, thanks to supercruise and stealth on their f-22s, where does that leave Pakistan?
 
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Sorry if this has been explained before but I have been very curious as to how big of an advantage the massive range advantage provides the r-77? Even if we are to assume that none of these missiles will be used from their maximum distance, the r-77 will be fired far earlier than a sd-10 no? The Americans can afford to have a shorter range missile, thanks to supercruise and stealth on their f-22s, where does that leave Pakistan?

well i have talked to and listened few people who have experience or knowledge about BVR .What i have heard from them and concluded is BVR is not the only thing when it comes to war .they all said that having BVR is no doubt a psychological advantage over enemy but it doesnot mean that this sole advantage can give you air supremacy over enemy .Even the best of BVR missile has success rate of ~25%
 
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Sorry if this has been explained before but I have been very curious as to how big of an advantage the massive range advantage provides the r-77? Even if we are to assume that none of these missiles will be used from their maximum distance, the r-77 will be fired far earlier than a sd-10 no? The Americans can afford to have a shorter range missile, thanks to supercruise and stealth on their f-22s, where does that leave Pakistan?

Well, more range means more fuel/energy left with the missile, it can sustain more wen the target air craft take evasive measures. Also it can fire a bit earlier than other missiles coz of its long range. Apart from than R-77 has a passive mode as if its active seeker got jammed, it will passively target the emission air Craft, like an anti-radiation missile. But it has its own limitations as Gambit explained in this forum..
 
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