Scorpene submarine: Indigenous AIP will increase endurance of the boats being built

[anant_s]

As per contracted, the structure of the first 4 Scorpenes cannot accommodate AIP. Making design changes will only increase the time of induction.

Exactly!
Infact this issue should have been looked into at the time of award of contract and if now we come to know that this is the anomaly, technical evaluation committee must answer.
the need of the hour is to get 6 subs from project in water AIP or NO AIP. these things are now only going to increase delays which serves none of us well.
P75i envisages Built in India subs and budget permitting, more subs can be added which in any case are going to feature AIP in design.

 

[Skull and Bones]

and that's why DRDO use its own OS and office tools which is way better than those from college dropout Bill gates company also known as Microsoft ! so pity . and do not forget that its all because of defence forces fault that
world beating OS by DRDO is not in wide use !

And you can't make Salmon Sushi while an illiterate local street shop vendor in NY China town can.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Exactly!
Infact this issue should have been looked into at the time of award of contract and if now we come to know that this is the anomaly, technical evaluation committee must answer.
the need of the hour is to get 6 subs from project in water AIP or NO AIP. these things are now only going to increase delays which serves none of us well.
P75i envisages Built in India subs and budget permitting, more subs can be added which in any case are going to feature AIP in design.

all this scorpene deal was to make money both by frenchies and corrupt UPA goverments thus so many delebarte delays

but money has already changed hands so better let this one go as per the contract and all other such deals should not go to tried and tested frenchies germans or japnese are much better & honest in stikking to their deals

 

[punit]

And you can't make Salmon Sushi while an illiterate local street shop vendor in NY China town can.

yeah ! MS office and OS are them most pathetic things .. DRDO can make better OS and soft in nanoseconds !

 

[Donatello]

As per contracted, the structure of the first 4 Scorpenes cannot accommodate AIP. Making design changes will only increase the time of induction.

That is true, and it was the same case with Agosta 90s of PN.....only the last boat was AIP equipped, and the others were given AIP by adding a module during their Refit. So adding AIP late is clearly not an issue.
Even the upcoming 8 submarines are being finalized on their propulsion basis by PN...it is given that AIP is must, so all boats must come with it. That is why the type039 has been refused for a more flexible S20/Type041.

Just develop your indigenous one on the side, if it is ready before the refit schedule, add it in. If not, then go with a proven off the shelf version.

If i believe, warranties on these things are no joke. So you are better off adding a MESMA type AIP from the gitgo or one under French supervision so any faults later can be burdened on the French contractor and not the usual blame game with DRDO or whoever the builder was.

They really need to 'lock' the design phase and then agree on what is to be delivered and not keep changing things all the time.

I mean, NASA/JHAPL New Horizons aircraft was launched in 2006, yet the computer architecture was the same as from a 1994 Playstation 1.....because they wanted a design that was proven....even though they could've gone for a faster ARM or x86 offerings in the 2000s.

And let's leave the functionality of the AIP out, because the key is the absolute silence they bring, more silent than a nuke powered sub.

@anant_s

 

[anant_s]

all this scorpene deal was to make money both by frenchies and corrupt UPA goverments thus so many delebarte delays

but money has already changed hands so better let this one go as per the contract and all other such deals should not go to tried and tested frenchies germans or japnese are much better & honest in stikking to their deals

Ironic isn't it if not surprising.
Submarines is the most laggard area as far as IN is concerned and no proper long term planning and customary corruption in deals.
i do hope HDW U 214 is selected, it really is a very capable machine and given India's previous experience with HDW, Navy would be pretty happy with it.

 

[Omega007]

And you can't make Salmon Sushi while an illiterate local street shop vendor in NY China town can.

Arey kongkal bhai,bekar bekar nujer samay borbad kor6en kano oi gadhatar pi6one??

 

[surya kiran]

And let's leave the functionality of the AIP out, because the key is the absolute silence they bring, more silent than a nuke powered sub.

@anant_s

Else, it will be the Kaveri all over again.

The problem arises from the fact that most of the subs are nearing their 25 30 year periods. This means, while the new ones come online, the old ones are going to be removed from service.

Now, even if the second line of submarines is approved where will they be built? HSL to build the SSN/SSBN. They are also building the P75I. Pipavav is the only other private shipyard. GRSE and L&T can build subs. So we come to the following :

1. MDL operating already at capacity.
2. HSL operating at capacity to build the nuclear powered line plus the P75I
3. Pipavav, GRSE and L&T. Cochin Shipyard will be building the carriers and ABG will build the LPDs.

Those 3 shipyards now will need to build 6 + the replacement submarines. Add to that, L&T may also need to build the SSNs.

In short, get the subs. AIP can be added later. There are lots of subs which are going to be built which can have the Indian AIP.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Ironic isn't it if not surprising.
Submarines is the most laggard area as far as IN is concerned and no proper long term planning and customary corruption in deals.
i do hope HDW U 214 is selected, it really is a very capable machine and given India's previous experience with HDW, Navy would be pretty happy with it.

what i dont understand is that hwen in 1980s we went for making 209s under TOT in india its successor the 212 should fave beentaken as it would be very easy to make and incorporate in owr fleet as we are already using 209s and then the next step of 214 + when it comes to attack submariens nothing beats germans as they leaders are into this buisness for at least a centuary now ..... why on earth MOD went for frenchies when we had german setup already rather it confused owr shipbuilders and sailors alike

 

[Donatello]

what i dont understand is that hwen in 1980s we went for making 209s under TOT in india its successor the 212 should fave beentaken as it would be very easy to make and incorporate in owr fleet as we are already using 209s and then the next step of 214 + when it comes to attack submariens nothing beats germans as they leaders are into this buisness for at least a centuary now ..... why on earth MOD went for frenchies when we had german setup already rather it confused owr shipbuilders and sailors alike

I am sorry, but that is a misinformed comment.
German and French subs, in fact the Swedish ones are all very good. The French have the added advantage that they could borrow the design and systems from the SSN/SSBNs R&D effort as well, since Germans don't really operate a nuclear powered sub fleet, so the only tech (albeit a very good one) they have is AIP/Diesel Electric.

Your MoD already went for the German Type 209, so they must have seen something in the Scorpene that they ordered 6.

You can do all you want with the P75I...go completely local or realize that you will need tech and do a JV with HDW/DCNS to speed up the process. Other than ISRO delivering it's payload vehicles, which major Indigenous project is running on time and schedule/costs in India? (Even the INSAS rifle was declared failure, no?)

Else, it will be the Kaveri all over again.

The problem arises from the fact that most of the subs are nearing their 25 30 year periods. This means, while the new ones come online, the old ones are going to be removed from service.

Now, even if the second line of submarines is approved where will they be built? HSL to build the SSN/SSBN. They are also building the P75I. Pipavav is the only other private shipyard. GRSE and L&T can build subs. So we come to the following :

1. MDL operating already at capacity.
2. HSL operating at capacity to build the nuclear powered line plus the P75I
3. Pipavav, GRSE and L&T. Cochin Shipyard will be building the carriers and ABG will build the LPDs.

Those 3 shipyards now will need to build 6 + the replacement submarines. Add to that, L&T may also need to build the SSNs.

In short, get the subs. AIP can be added later. There are lots of subs which are going to be built which can have the Indian AIP.

Here is a very simple question that the MoD needs to ask when dealing with the requests of the trio:
1-What equipment we need and WHEN do we need it?

If the only product/system that they need on time today (clearly, when China and Pakistan will rapidly develop a sizable sub fleet in the region in 10 years)is a foreign one, go for it. Don't get muddled in Make in India non-sense. We saw how that worked with the IAF MMRCA. Or that Arjun failed and you ran to order T90s, why not do it in the first place? Clearly something seems to be a miss.
You wanted the P8Is, you went with the Boeing offering. Simple. Now tell me, if India went about developing MPA aircraft on it's own, would it have gotten that capability at this price and above all, this rapid in service operation? Nope.

 

[GURU DUTT]

I am sorry, but that is a misinformed comment.
German and French subs, in fact the Swedish ones are all very good. The French have the added advantage that they could borrow the design and systems from the SSN/SSBNs R&D effort as well, since Germans don't really operate a nuclear powered sub fleet, so the only tech (albeit a very good one) they have is AIP/Diesel Electric.

Your MoD already went for the German Type 209, so they must have seen something in the Scorpene that they ordered 6.

You can do all you want with the P75I...go completely local or realize that you will need tech and do a JV with HDW/DCNS to speed up the process. Other than ISRO delivering it's payload vehicles, which major Indigenous project is running on time and schedule/costs in India? (Even the INSAS rifle was declared failure, no?)



Here is a very simple question that the MoD needs to ask when dealing with the requests of the trio:
1-What equipment we need and WHEN do we need it?

If the only product/system that they need on time today (clearly, when China and Pakistan will rapidly develop a sizable sub fleet in the region in 10 years)is a foreign one, go for it. Don't get muddled in Make in India non-sense. We saw how that worked with the IAF MMRCA. Or that Arjun failed and you ran to order T90s, why not do it in the first place? Clearly something seems to be a miss.
You wanted the P8Is, you went with the Boeing offering. Simple. Now tell me, if India went about developing MPA aircraft on it's own, would it have gotten that capability at this price and above all, this rapid in service operation? Nope.

we went to germans first as they were best in "diesel electric" design and here we also wanted a "diesel electric" sub what is better in scorpenes that is not avilable in 212 or 214 ?

does scorpenes had VLS capability when MOD orderred them or the AIP

were scorpenes cheaper than 212 then

does scorpenes dived deeper and were morefaster , quiter & stealthier than 212s then

did scorpenes carried more feul and ammo than 212s

so why did scorpenes were baught instead of 212s when we already had some experience about their design and manufacturing and useage

please tell me im quite ignorant about this issue thanks in advance

 

[Donatello]

we went to germans first as they were best in "diesel electric" design and here we also wanted a "diesel electric" sub what is better in scorpenes that is not avilable in 212 or 214 ?

does scorpenes had VLS capability when MOD orderred them or the AIP

were scorpenes cheaper than 212 then

does scorpenes dived deeper and were morefaster , quiter & stealthier than 212s then

did scorpenes carried more feul and ammo than 212s

so why did scorpenes were baught instead of 212s when we already had some experience about their design and manufacturing and useage

please tell me im quite ignorant about this issue thanks in advance

You need to understand that we are talking about approximately 2000 tonne submarines here. Meaning the space is extremely tight, so a proper VLS system may not be available. Your best bet in that case is integrating a Cruise Missile launch from within the torpedo tubes, like the Exocet missile. VLS takes up a lot of space, so for that you need a better and bigger design, which you can do with in the next P75I class

Scorpene had the AIP available from the onset, i don't know why India didn't go for it, because the MESMA system was available to DCNS for it's Agosta 90 boats that they delivered to Pakistan well before Scorpene to India.

Type 212 is not available for export, only for Germany and Italy. Their export version was the Type 214, and maybe India had it's reasons of not going with German boats. By going the French way for submarines and Rafale, you could get a lot more. Same reason, why not Typhoon but Rafale, when both are equally capable.

 

[GURU DUTT]

You need to understand that we are talking about approximately 2000 tonne submarines here. Meaning the space is extremely tight, so a proper VLS system may not be available. Your best bet in that case is integrating a Cruise Missile launch from within the torpedo tubes, like the Exocet missile. VLS takes up a lot of space, so for that you need a better and bigger design, which you can do with in the next P75I class

Scorpene had the AIP available from the onset, i don't know why India didn't go for it, because the MESMA system was available to DCNS for it's Agosta 90 boats that they delivered to Pakistan well before Scorpene to India.

Type 212 is not available for export, only for Germany and Italy. Their export version was the Type 214, and maybe India had it's reasons of not going with German boats. By going the French way for submarines and Rafale, you could get a lot more. Same reason, why not Typhoon but Rafale, when both are equally capable.

so did or dint the 212 or 214s had the capabillity of launching anty ship missiles from its torpedo tubes when scorpenes were ordered and why dint owr negociators went for AIP enabelled scorpenes when they signed the contract as AIP tech was already bieng used and exported by DCNS as they did with Augsta 90B subs with pakistan ... who is responsible for that when they knew that DRDOs desi AIP tech was still at least a decade away from maturing ... does it means they intentionalli did it .... i cant find any other logik than corruption here

 

[Donatello]

so did or dint the 212 or 214s had the capabillity of launching anty ship missiles from its torpedo tubes when scorpenes were ordered and why dint owr negociators went for AIP enabelled scorpenes when they signed the contract as AIP tech was already bieng used and exported by DCNS as they did with Augsta 90B subs with pakistan ... who is responsible for that when they knew that DRDOs desi AIP tech was still at least a decade away from maturing ... does it means they intentionalli did it .... i cant find any other logik than corruption here

Like i said, Type 212 was never available for export outside Europe.
Type 214 did have the ability for cruise missile launch but i think it was Harpoon based and not Exocet. But if you can fit a canister for the missile small enough, you can retrofit the tubes later on. This really is not a major issue. Or you can request the contractor to provide this capability from the beginning, just like you can specify whether you want AIP or not.

The Indian P75I contract was to be done in a Joint Venture with HDW/Rosoboronexport/Armaris, but then they came up with the usual 'Make in India' so it's to be seen how much indigenous stuff really they get and whether it will be done on time.

India should've taken clues from Israeli procurement of the Dolphin class submarines, which are based on the Type 209 Submarine, but are significantly bigger and more advanced (the same similar type that India already operates). The Dophin 2 class carries the AIP as well, along with the ability to launch cruise missiles.

I think India muddles up it's procurement by forcing in local components, which just delays the overall project. Your Submarine strength is woefully low, and by the time all Scorpenes are delivered, the Kilo class would be due for retirement, meaning your strength is back to square one.

And for the rest of your questions, well you can ask the Babus in MoD. But clearly IN still is getting better deals than IAF or IA in procurement.

 

[anant_s]

Like i said, Type 212 was never available for export outside Europe.
Type 214 did have the ability for cruise missile launch but i think it was Harpoon based and not Exocet. But if you can fit a canister for the missile small enough, you can retrofit the tubes later on. This really is not a major issue. Or you can request the contractor to provide this capability from the beginning, just like you can specify whether you want AIP or not.

The Indian P75I contract was to be done in a Joint Venture with HDW/Rosoboronexport/Armaris, but then they came up with the usual 'Make in India' so it's to be seen how much indigenous stuff really they get and whether it will be done on time.

India should've taken clues from Israeli procurement of the Dolphin class submarines, which are based on the Type 209 Submarine, but are significantly bigger and more advanced (the same similar type that India already operates). The Dophin 2 class carries the AIP as well, along with the ability to launch cruise missiles.

I think India muddles up it's procurement by forcing in local components, which just delays the overall project. Your Submarine strength is woefully low, and by the time all Scorpenes are delivered, the Kilo class would be due for retirement, meaning your strength is back to square one.

And for the rest of your questions, well you can ask the Babus in MoD. But clearly IN still is getting better deals than IAF or IA in procurement.

Sir, one of the biggest problem that plagues us is that the bureaucratic mechanism of procurement takes ages to make decision. In comparison a game of chess looks like lightening fast. The result by the time we reach finalisation, the requirements of armed forces either have to be changed or become obsolete outright.
Therefore the first thing that forces would like to see changed is the system be more receptive to their needs and realise that timing of process is equally important.
As I said above in one post that situationis so desperate right now that 6 subs from P 75 irrespective of AIP or not are required just to build up numbers.