Scorpeans vs Augostas

[jaman_thakkar]

Pakistan has inducted augosta submarimne in its navy and india will induct scorpean sub in some 3-4 yrs.so lets compare technically which one is better.I think our sub scorpean will be more advanced because that is the reason india has purchased them after realizing the fact that our kilos r weak infront of augostas.

 

[MOO]

Which Sub is actually better? Both are French and can fire the same type of weapons, the thing I wanna know is which Sub out of the two has the latest technology, is it the Augosta or the Scorpien? And can they fire Nuclear missiles while submerged?

 

[jaman_thakkar]

MOO...I think that scorpean must be having a latest technology...firstly it has STEALTH capacity which augosta doesnt have and secondly it has AIP system again which augosta lack.correct me if wrong.

 

[Lilo]

MOO...I think that scorpean must be having a latest technology...firstly it has STEALTH capacity which augosta doesnt have and secondly it has AIP system again which augosta lack.correct me if wrong.

For subs their stealth is directly proportional to their noise levels.
Since scorpene is a newer design compared to agosta it is quiter (i.e stealthier) to agosta.It doesent mean that agosta lacks stealth..like its stealthier compared to normal kilos.

agostas do have MESMA aip systems and scorpenes which are being built are going to be fitted with aip systems.But the GoI is yet to decide wether they will have french MESMA based aip or german fuel cell based aip.

 

[jaman_thakkar]

then which is superior?french MESMA or german fuel cell AIP?

 

[miroslav]

In submarine warfare and air dogfight the winner is not the machine but the rider who controls it.

Structure: The Scorpene Class features pressure hull weldable, high tensile HLES 80 steel and can withstand up to a depth of 350 meters (~ 1150 feet). The use of high yield, stress-specific steel gives the submarine an unlimited dive capacity, even at maximum depth. Unconfirmed reports indicate that the submarines for the Indian Navy (IN) will feature HLES 100 high yield and high elasticity steel, which will enable them to reach even greater depths. The albacore shaped hull has been designed for silent operations and thus when submerged, the submarine radiates very little noise which in turn improves the performance of its own sonars and also reduces the risk of detection by enemy submarines. The boat features a seven blade, skewed propeller which also assists in radiating low noise.

Displacement: Submerged; Not Known.
...................Surfaced; Not Known.

Dimensions: Length - Not Known.
................Draught - Not Known.
................Beam - Not Known.

Diving Depth: 350 meters (approximately 1150 feet).

Main Machinery: Two diesel generation sets providing a total output of 1250 kW. Also features an elastically supported electronic engine providing 2900 kW of power. The contract with DCN does permit the IN to fit the MESMA (Module d'energie Sousmarin Autonome) AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) module, after the third boat has been delivered. The Times of India reported on 22 January 2006, that the IN is indeed looking to install the system on the last three boats. The news article further stated that without the system, the Scorpene can remain underwater for a maximum of four days before surfacing or snorkeling to draw in oxygen needed to recharge its batteries. With AIP, the boat will be able to operate for 18 days, giving it a huge strategic advantage.
Each MESMA system is expected to cost US $50 to 60 million and the IN will have to acquire permission from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) for the purchase. Vice Admiral Nirmal Verma, Special Officer on Duty to the Chief of Naval Staff, stated "We are looking very closely at the AIP system and hope to get it in future. The Scorpenes, in any case, are a generation ahead of the Agosta submarines." The only export customer to date for the MESMA system, has been the Pakistan Navy which will use them on their Agosta 90B submarines. If indeed purchased, it would rule out the possibility of the IN acquiring PEM (Polymer Electrolyte Membrane) fuel cells from Siemens of Germany. Fuel cells are the German variant of an AIP system and is reportedly superior to the French system.
Proponents of the German fuel cells state that they have no moving parts and are thus virtually silent in operation. Its quietness is reportedly unmatched by any other current AIP system in the world. The fuel cells also do not emit exhaust heat, thereby reducing detection. Opponents of fuel cells state that the close proximity of hydrogen and oxygen is inherently dangerous and an explosion of such will result in both boat and crew being lost at sea. Opponents of the French MESMA system state that they are noisier than the German fuel cells because of their moving parts and the disposal of combustion gases, caused by the mixture of liquid oxygen and ethanol. Ultimately it is hoped that the user, regardless of system chosen, makes a final decision based on operational requirements.

Maximum Speed: Submerged; 20 knots.
.......................Surfaced; Not Known.

Maximum Range: Submerged; Not Known.
.......................Surfaced; Not Known.

Maximum Endurance: 45 days.

Complement: 31 (including ? Officers).

Sonar: The boat is fitted with a series of acoustic sensors, ranging from long-range, passive cylindrical arrays to distributed arrays to flank arrays to towed arrays to an intercept sonar and a high resolution sonar for detecting mines and avoiding obstacles. Some of the later boats could be fitted the USHUS sonar, developed locally by NPOL (Naval Physical Oceanographic Laboratory) of the Indian Navy and by BEL (Bharat Electronics Limited).

Weapons Control: The SUBTICS [Submarine Tactical Integrated Combat System] provides a complete tactical overview of the submarine's surrounding environment. The system consists of a weapon control system, a command & tactical data handling system, an assortment of sonar equipment and an integrated navigation system. With an ability to download data from external sources, it will allow the submarine to exchange & study tactical data received from other friendly submarines, surface combatants and/or ASW helicopters.

Weapons: Fitted with six bow-located 21" torpedo tubes, providing salvo launch capability. The torpedo of choice is the WASS Black Shark heavyweight torpedo. The Black Shark is a dual purpose, wire-guided torpedo which is fitted with an active/passive acoustic head and a multi-target guidance & control unit incorporating a counter- countermeasures system. It has an electrical propulsion system based on a silver oxide and aluminum battery. The boats will also be armed with the Block 2 variant of the Exocet SM-39 AShM which has a range of 50 km.

Countermeasures: The boats will be equipped with the AR-900 electronic support measures/direction-finding (ESM/DF) system from EDO Reconnaissance Systems of the US. They will also feature the WASS C303 anti-torpedo system.

Comments: Project 75 will be one of the Indian Navy's standard submarines for the 21st century. This program is not to be confused with the Advanced Technology Vessel, which is also under development. In February 2001, the then incumbent Chief of Naval Staff - Admiral Sushil Kumar - commented on the Project 75 program by stating, "Our emphasis will be on re-configuration to build more silent and hunter-killer submarines equipped with long-range weapons and advanced electronic warfare systems." He also stated that the work on upgrading the submarine building facilities at Mazagon Dock Limited in Mumbai had commenced, as the facility had been lying idle after the construction of two Shishumar Class submarines in the early 1990s.




For more info on both the submarines check official DCN Site

http://www.dcn.fr/us/offre/sous-marins/scorpene.html

http://www.dcn.fr/us/offre/sous-marins/agosta.html

Miro