"SCO is about to admit India and Pakistan as full members"

[roadrunner]

let me try and ask about the Northern Areas again.

There were 2 treaties (Lahore and Amritsar) which stated the area to the east of the Indus was Kashmir. This excludes the Northern Areas.

Which treaty made the Northern Areas part of Kashmir since?

If no treaty exists, the Northern Areas were under OCCUPATION by Hari Singh, but were not a part of J & K.

 

[roadrunner]

Adding to this.

There is uncontestable proof that the Northern Areas were not part of J & K in 1947. Hunza and Nagar was a princely state in 1947. How can Hunza and Nagar have been part of the princely state of Kashmir? It is impossible.

They were seperate princely states. Northern Areas is NOT a part of Kashmir.

 

[EjazR]

@roadrunner

I don't understand why you are running around the bush on whether Gilgit Baltistan is part of the disputed territory or not. I though you were smarter than that. In any book or discussion on the issue it is well known that this area is part of the dispute. Why did Pakistan administer AJK and Gilgit Baltistan as a single unit until 1970 then? Infact, there were no elected govt in these areas until 1970 and in GB until 2010. Atleast in Indian side of J&K, the first elections were held in 1951 where the elected representatives of people of J&K passed a resolution to accede to India. Were the ruler of Hunza elected representatives?

In any case, here is what the UN looks at when discussing disputed borders

Recently the Economist did a flash animation of the territories and here again you will see the areas of GB being highlighted as part of the J&K territory under Pakistani control.
Indian, Pakistani and Chinese border disputes: Fantasy frontiers | The Economist


And here is what a Pakistani think tank says, if nothing else works, contact them to explain why they said that northern areas are part of Jammu KAshmir and they might be able to explain it to you.

http://www.ips.org.pk/international...istan-facts-problems-and-recommendations.html
Northern Areas: Historical Facts

Before partition of the sub-Continent, the state of Jammu and Kashmir with a total area of 84471 square miles, was geographically divided into following three big regions:

1. Jammu Province (12,378 sq. miles)
2. Kashmir Province (8,539 sq.)
3. Frontier Province of Ladakh and Gilgit (63,554 sq)

In 1947, a part of the state gained independence and was called Azad Jammu and Kashmir, which has an area of 5,134 square miles. While 29,814 square miles chunk of the Frontier Province of Ladakh and Gilgit after winning freedom came under the administrative control of Pakistan through an agreement. This is the area now called Northern Areas. The rest of the Frontier province i.e. 3,3740 sq. miles area of Ladakh is under Indian occupation . The Northern Areas of Pakistan are source of global attraction for their heights and vast ranges of K-2, Hindukush, Pamir and the Himalayas.
Constitutional Position

* Historically these areas belong to Dogra State of Jammu and Kashmir. On March 29, 1935, the British government took possession of Gilgit Agency from the state government, through a lease agreement for 60 years. The British feared of the Soviet expansionist moves, and therefore wanted to have direct control in the region. During this period the state flag remained hoisted over residency along with the Union Jack. However by August 1, 1947, the areas were returned to the state government , because the British had decided partitioning of the Indian sub-continent.

Now I want to stop playing games around this and derail the thread because there is no point me giving anymore evidence that Gilgit Baltistan is part of disputed territory. This also shows how Pakistan has violated the UN resoltions by assimilating it as 5th province. Not to mention other assurances that were not followed Resolution adopted by UN

The question is how we resolve this. Now if recent opinion polling is anything to go by, only the people in the Kashmir valley want independence. In areas of Jammu or Ladakh in India they want to remain with India. In AJK they are happy with Pakistan. We don't know about GB areas as the govt. control is so strict that no one has been allowed there to conduct such polling.

So given that people in Kashmir valley don't want to join Pakistan, it is no longer a CORE issue for Pakistan. Especially since it wants the wishes of the Kashmir people to be heard and that is they don't want to join Pakistan. It is a CORE issue for India because the valley people want independence. Of course they want independence of the ENTIRE historic J&K state and that includes GB as well. Something Pakistan would never agree to. So if Pakistan is a true friend of the Kashmiris, it will right say that to them clearly that GB will never be part of your independent state. Similarly neither will Ladakh or Jammu. A valley by itself landlocked will not survive and the only logical solution is for them to be with India. And this is India's problem not Pakistan on how it should resolve its state-centre relationship.

Now Pakistan has two choices (1) Continue to harp on Kashmir or UN resolutions which she herself violated and become irrelevant like the UN resolutions themselves. (2) Follow in the footsteps of Musharraf and Kayani in 2005-2008 era where they realised Kashmir was no longer a CORE issue for Pakistan and focus on jump starting the economy and cracking down on terrorism including anti-India groups that operate on Pakistani soil and are now eating up into its society like cancer.

 

[roadrunner]

Now I want to stop playing games around this and derail the thread because there is no point me giving anymore evidence that Gilgit Baltistan is part of disputed territory. This also shows how Pakistan has violated the UN resoltions by assimilating it as 5th province. Not to mention other assurances that were not followed Resolution adopted by UN

This is a total lie is it not?

There is no such resolution as this. You can check any official archives. If so could you give me an official link to it?

The real text of the 13th August, 1948 resolution is easy to find and does not state what you've stated.

 

[roadrunner]

@roadrunner I don't understand why you are running around the bush on whether Gilgit Baltistan is part of the disputed territory or not. I though you were smarter than that. In any book or discussion on the issue it is well known that this area is part of the dispute.

It is part of the dispute only because India claims GB was part of Kashmir. This claim is incorrect.

Nagar-Hunza were independent princely states at the time of partition and seperate from kashmir princely state.

Why did Pakistan administer AJK and Gilgit Baltistan as a single unit until 1970 then? Infact, there were no elected govt in these areas until 1970 and in GB until 2010. Atleast in Indian side of J&K, the first elections were held in 1951 where the elected representatives of people of J&K passed a resolution to accede to India. Were the ruler of Hunza elected representatives?

I dont know. I can speculate.

India went to the UN claiming Northern Areas as part of Kashmir and disputed. So Pakistan initially administered the regions (it thought until plebiscite is held). Plebiscite didn't occur. So Pakistan gave AJK autonomy. It decided Northern Areas were not a part of Kashmir (which was correct) and made it a part of Pakistan. In the end it gave the GB autonomy. I dont see anything wrong with this story.

In any case, here is what the UN looks at when discussing disputed borders

Recently the Economist did a flash animation of the territories and here again you will see the areas of GB being highlighted as part of the J&K territory under Pakistani control. Indian, Pakistani and Chinese border disputes: Fantasy frontiers | The Economist

It is this simple. Provide the treaty where Gilgit became a part of J & K. A region of the Northern Areas was forcibly annexed by Hari Singh but it was only made to pay tribute (this might be the Gilgit mentioned above). There was no treaty of land transfer.

Do you accept there was a princely state of Nagar-Hunza in 1947 and that it acceded to Pakistan. This princely state, roughly the Northern Areas, was seperate from Kashmir. Agreed?

 

[roadrunner]

The question is how we resolve this. Now if recent opinion polling is anything to go by, only the people in the Kashmir valley want independence. In areas of Jammu or Ladakh in India they want to remain with India. In AJK they are happy with Pakistan. We don't know about GB areas as the govt. control is so strict that no one has been allowed there to conduct such polling.

So given that people in Kashmir valley don't want to join Pakistan, it is no longer a CORE issue for Pakistan. Especially since it wants the wishes of the Kashmir people to be heard and that is they don't want to join Pakistan. It is a CORE issue for India because the valley people want independence. Of course they want independence of the ENTIRE historic J&K state and that includes GB as well. Something Pakistan would never agree to. So if Pakistan is a true friend of the Kashmiris, it will right say that to them clearly that GB will never be part of your independent state. Similarly neither will Ladakh or Jammu. A valley by itself landlocked will not survive and the only logical solution is for them to be with India. And this is India's problem not Pakistan on how it should resolve its state-centre relationship.

Now Pakistan has two choices (1) Continue to harp on Kashmir or UN resolutions which she herself violated and become irrelevant like the UN resolutions themselves. (2) Follow in the footsteps of Musharraf and Kayani in 2005-2008 era where they realised Kashmir was no longer a CORE issue for Pakistan and focus on jump starting the economy and cracking down on terrorism including anti-India groups that operate on Pakistani soil and are now eating up into its society like cancer.

To resolve Kashmir allow a plebiscite to be held according to the wishes of the people and in accordance with UN resolutions.

 

[roadrunner]

You failed to give a single evidence since ages. You lied multiple times in last few days (I stopped counting now ) when I said prove it. You ran with broken runner to Tokelau in Lahore. Again same story next day and so on and you fight till end until things changes upside-down and you chose next topic. You just say for the sake of saying without any facts. You don't believe anything but you do believe your own Fictions and Free Blogs which gives negative opinion on India. .

fine troll. Could you provide the UN resolution EjazR has quoted above? Give me a link to some UN archive. If it's not there, it never was a resolution and you've lied.

 

[jdme]

To resolve Kashmir allow a plebiscite to be held according to the wishes of the people and in accordance with UN resolutions.

No we won't and there is nothing anyone can do about. You are free to "provide" Kashmiris a new homeland.

 

[roadrunner]

No we won't and there is nothing anyone can do about. You are free to "provide" Kashmiris a new homeland.

fine democracy

 

[jdme]

This is classic example of changing the topic. You Should allow referendum to be held according to the wishes of people of gilgit baltistan and Baluchistan. Then we will do the same Insallah

No, the mistake here is that you are trying to engage them when there is absolutely no need. Pakistan will implode on it's own. Then we will simply take the so called AJK.

 

[SQ8]

No, the mistake here is that you are trying to engage them when there is absolutely no need. Pakistan will implode on it's own. Then we will simply take the so called AJK.

Good luck with that..
We implode.. a couple of nukes might end up with the likes of LeT..
that would be neat ..no??

 

[jdme]

Good luck with that..
We implode.. a couple of nukes might end up with the likes of LeT..
that would be neat ..no??

Oh thank you. Couple of nukes for India vs 100s of nukes for Pakistan under Islamist hands. Yeh, I see why you would call India "neater". Pakistan will be one pockmarked nation. As I said, it will implode on it's own. That's why you guys are building nukes, right?

 

[jdme]

Only Few Politicians, bureaucrats, Army and Liberal class can change the relation between both the countries in peaceful manner. All required is "Will" and Hope that day Will come. Yes, Only Hope as of Now.

Peace is overrated. I absolutely don't want it. I am busy watching Pakistan default on it's debt.

 

[Areesh]

No, the mistake here is that you are trying to engage them when there is absolutely no need. Pakistan will implode on it's own. Then we will simply take the so called AJK.

Good luck with your wishes and dreams.

 

[Areesh]

This is classic example of changing the topic. You Should allow referendum to be held according to the wishes of people of gilgit baltistan and Baluchistan. Then we will do the same Insallah

See you are a troll. Not worthy for the discussion. Now stop whining if road runner doesn't answer your BS.