Saudisation of Pakisan

[Capt.Popeye]

Let's analyze the content without histrionics.

The author
1- was indoctrinated to be obsessively religious -- a bit extreme, but not criminal.

2- convinced his parents to follow some routines -- again nothing new. check out some environmentalist or vegetarians to see how they pester those around them.

3- was politically active -- again, nothing wrong

4- took up arms -- houston, we have a problem!

So, out of all the above, the only problematic issue is #4 (resorting to violence). As always, when we lose focus and let anti-Arab, anti-Islam obsession cloud the issue, we steer away from solutions.

Our problem is the belief that disagreements can be resolved by vigilante justice outside the law.

Ref the underlined part;

Is that 'the problem'?

OR

Is the problem that vigilante justice (ie unilateral armed action) is considered to be sanctioned by 'Higher Powers'?

 

[Developereo]

Ref the underlined part;

Is that 'the problem'?

OR

Is the problem that vigilante justice (ie unilateral armed action) is considered to be sanctioned by 'Higher Powers'?

The term 'higher powers' can be interpreted two ways (God, and political elite) and I am not sure which one you meant, so I will address both.

- God does not sanction vigilante justice, so anyone preaching so needs to be stopped.
- Political elite are indeed the higher powers sanctioning this belief and, as I have mentioned before, they are the root of the problem, not the mullahs who are merely the foot soldiers.

The problem is that many people realize the root cause (political elite) are beyond justice and can't be touched. So, in frustration to do something, they rail against the middlemen mullahs. While it may be satisfying in the short term, it is only a stopgap solution which does nothing to create long term stability.

If the mullahs are neutralized, the political elite will use differences in ethnicity and language as motivating factors.

 

[turbo charged]

a good read indeed is the novel mirza and the latrine factory......

seculars have a problem with General Zia cause he gave danda(stick) to qadianis like somebozo and hyperion.
they still feel the pain to this date....


bottom line is a moulvi has never assumed executive power in this country....he never ran a government....was bhutto a moulvi when Pakistan got divided?



instead Jaamat e Islami gave their lives for a united Pakistan in 1971......


qadianis on other hand have conspired to break Pakistan so that they can travel to the latrine factory in india without any visa restrictions.

during 1965 war a huge qadiani conspiray was unearthed and eliminated in sialkot were local qadianis were supporting indian invasion of sialkot.....if you dont trust me...go and ask Air commodore M.M.Alam ....what local qadianis were doing during 1965 and 1971 war.

qadianis have a huge head quarter in tel aviv,israel which is funded by israeli government...you can find it on google search....thats why you will see a qadiani pop up every now and then talking about Pakistan,,,,israel relations....
@somebozo @Hyperion @SHAMK9 @FaujHistorian @mirza

 

[Capt.Popeye]

a good read indeed is the novel mirza and the latrine factory......

seculars have a problem with General Zia ul haq cause he gave danda to qadianis like somebozo and hyperion.
the still feel the pain to this date....

LOLLL, Gernail Zia actually gave the "biggest Danda" to Pakistan. Pakistan is still feeling the pain and will continue to do so; if you are still unable to understand that FACT.

Not to forget that Zia coated that Danda with his special 'home-made Mirchi' before giving that Danda. Now Pakistan is sadly paying the price for his misdeeds.
Wonder what Qaid-e-Azam would have to say about this?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

The term 'higher powers' can be interpreted two ways (God, and political elite) and I am not sure which one you meant, so I will address both.

- God does not sanction vigilante justice, so anyone preaching so needs to be stopped.
- Political elite are indeed the higher powers sanctioning this belief and, as I have mentioned before, they are the root of the problem, not the mullahs who are merely the foot soldiers.

The problem is that many people realize the root cause (political elite) are beyond justice and can't be touched. So, in frustration to do something, they rail against the middlemen mullahs. While it may be satisfying in the short term, it is only a stopgap solution which does nothing to create long term stability.

If the mullahs are neutralized, the political elite will use differences in ethnicity and language as motivating factors.

I meant both. It is crystal clear that there is now a 'school of thought' in Pakistan that believes that they have 'Divine sanction' to do whatever the consider 'righteous' and there also a (growing?)constituency that accepts that pov.

About the Elite (Political or Military) they have been around for quite long; are somewhat known quantities; whose wings can be clipped off and on. Hence a lesser threat.

It is the first factor that poses more of a 'clear and imminent danger'.

 

[Developereo]

About the Elite (Political or Military) they have been around for quite long; are somewhat known quantities; whose wings can be clipped off and on. Hence a lesser threat.

As I explained, they are the primary threat and sponsors of the secondary problems. Nor can their wings be clipped, which leads to frustration and redirects anger at manageable targets like the middleman mullahs instead of the root cause.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

As I explained, they are the primary threat and sponsors of the secondary problems. Nor can their wings be clipped, which leads to frustration and redirects anger at manageable targets like the middleman mullahs instead of the root cause.

You seem to have got it wrong.
The Elite (Political and Military) may have created the "Middleman Mullas" but this very same Middleman Mullas and similar forces have gone well out of the control of the Elite. Now Frankenstein is in a position to destroy his Creator.
Unless the Elite (Political and Military) develop the will (and cojones) to reassert themselves and put down the "constituency of the righteous" who are even able to claim Divine Sanction. Remember that even the Elite has not been able to claim Divine Sanction so far!

As for the common people (Awaam), they are the least important and the most expendable factor in this equation.

 

[Naya Pakistan]

Ever since the miserable years of Zia, the Pakistani's have started a oneupmanship with each other regarding wearing of religion on their sleeves. I cringe, when I watch the Pakistani cricketers giving post match interviews! Religion is private and personal with your maker who is the judge. Mulvi's consider their piety according to the length of their beard and not of their conduct. Most of them are vile as sin, sorry to say. It's all a show for their fellow humans, a little like a hierarchy who ever shouts the loudest wins. Very sad state, indeed....

 

[third eye]

@Hyperion Great read, however i do not blame Zia Ul Haq any longer for spreading this extremist venom in our society. Its been 24 years since the pitiful demise of Zia, the fault lies with us silent majority for being silent and not challenging them in their tracks.

Here lies the rub.

Ppl like to apportion the blame to someone else and move on with their lives.

' Be the change you wish to see' This is what MohanDas Karamchand Gandhi said & practiced.

Those who suffer in silence must share the blame with those who cause grief to men & nation.

 

[muse]

The Elite (Political and Military) may have created the Middleman Mullas" but this very same Middleman Mullas and similar forces have gone well out of the control of the Elite. Now Frankenstein is in a position to destroy his Creator. Unless the Elite (Political and Military) develop the will (and cojones) to reassert themselves and put down the "constituency of the righteous" who are even able to claim Divine Sanction. Remember that even the Elite has not been able to claim Divine Sanction so far!
As for the common people (Awaam), they are the least important and the most expendable factor in this equation.

Spot on - I don't know exactly where and by what mechanism, it came to be that the alliance between the military and bureaucracy broke down and instead of co-opting urbanites and the business community, it was the provincial feudal who was co-opted, probably because both the military and bureaucracy thought them easy to deal with - really quite incredible --

I understand the bit about reaction against Ayub Khan and the myth of the so called 22 families - and then the Jamaati assistance in East Pakistan - but I really don't understand why of all people in the area, Pakistanis, who I have bias, and think of them generally very highly in relation to others in the area, should show themselves so inept, over and over again when it comes to these nobodys - unless of course, it has been decided, primarily in the Army, that there is much utility left in these islam mongers.

There used to be a great threat "making of the modern maulvi" - full of excellent information and analysis - Deleted now.

I really wish there was someone here to offer us some understanding as to how it was that we came to lose control over our own creatures, I understand that for a while this "we have no control" was a fiction, but I do now think that we really do not have control over them, nor can we develop enough of a consensus and will to clean up. It would have to have been during the so called "lost decade" -- why? Zia may have laid the framework, but I don't think Zia would be the kind of person to lose control of them, especially since he knew that they really were about and I don't think it was during Musharraf's time, I mean they were out for his blood day and night

 

[Spring Onion]

@Hyperion, an interesting read, yet i cannot understand why this issue was not addressed in the article, why did the boy felt this way about School?
what would be the effect if the syllabus of the madrassa was same as the school?
If getting beaten up in the school was the reason boy ran away, don't they beat them in the madrassas as well?
@somebozo, there was a documentary by one of the british t.vs , i guess it was ITV or 4oD, it was made in outskirts of Lahore, what they showed was a HQ of Punjabi taliban, I am trying to find a link to that documentary but i can't find it . NS / PML-N has been supporting Terrorits, it is a clear fact.

dont know about this boy but there was a young man with post-graduate degree from University of Peshawar was seen by people roaiming with Laskhre Islam miilitants . when asked by people howcome he become a gunman for them he said what should me and my family eat. They pay me 50K per month with every other facility and what do i have to do but just carry an AK 47 and patrol the streets.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Ever since the miserable years of Zia, the Pakistani's have started a oneupmanship with each other regarding wearing of religion on their sleeves. I cringe, when I watch the Pakistani cricketers giving post match interviews! Religion is private and personal with your maker who is the judge. Mulvi's consider their piety according to the length of their beard and not of their conduct. Most of them are vile as sin, sorry to say. It's all a show for their fellow humans, a little like a hierarchy who ever shouts the loudest wins. Very sad state, indeed....

The problem actually began when Pakistan forgot (and eventually disowned) Jinnah-sabb's legacy. Qaid was very clear that Pakistan would be a State where Muslims could live in Peace, Progress and Prosperity. But he did not consider non-Muslims to some kind of "children of a lesser god". He was willing to give the same atmosphere to ALL CITIZENS of Pakistan. That is gone now. The rest has inevitably followed.

The people of Pakistan now have to take ownership of their lives and all that goes with it (thoughts, words and deeds). Otherwise it is easy enough to blame everybody else in the Universe for the existing state of affairs.........

 

[Developereo]

You seem to have got it wrong.
The Elite (Political and Military) may have created the "Middleman Mullas" but this very same Middleman Mullas and similar forces have gone well out of the control of the Elite. Now Frankenstein is in a position to destroy his Creator.

Not at all.

If the political elite have the will, the indoctrination mess can be cleaned up. As for the foot soldiers who are already indoctrinated, most can be reeducated, and the lost causes will need to be killed.

It is fashionable to blame the SC for letting off terrorists, but the courts must follow due process. If the prosecution does not provide evidence, the courts must acquit, regardless of what the mob wants. Prosecution fails to provide evidence because of pressure from political elites.

Imran Khan understands the problems and the solutions, which is why extremists on both sides don't like him.

 

[Naya Pakistan]

Indeed...and I accept what you say....but the downhill spiral to the abyss commenced in the zia years.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Indeed...and I accept what you say....but the downhill spiral to the abyss commenced in the zia years.

I agree with you on that point. Zia institutionalised it, to the extent that it was made the basic tenet in the Armed Forces. the Legal system and just about every branch of Governance.

Now the question then arises; can there be a come-back from that, and to what extent?