Saudi Arabia wants to buy 600-800 Leopard tanks from Germany

[Desert Fox]

BTW, Destroyed Al-Zarrar Tank, hit by multiple RPG's as well as IED's, and the crew still survived and the armor was never penetrated. The Crew had to ditch the Tank since it was disabled.

How the Tank might have looked before the attack:

Pray tell me...what better option ? I've gone through the Al-Zarrar and the Al-Khalid threads and there exists an unanimity amongst all informed posters that the Al-Zarrar was a cost-effective upgradation of the T-55s that brought them on par with the T-80UDs and the T-84 so that they can face off against the Indian upgraded T-72s and still fare better ! Its about threat perception ! We've got the Al-Khalids for their T-90s.

I agree, because in our theater of conflict neither side can completely replace its outdated models, therefore we improvise and innovate.

 

[Mosamania]

Tell me more about this bold part !

Check Saudi Navy's Wikipedia page and see what is their first engagement.

"Pakistan Navy had taken measures to safeguard East Pakistan naval assets since March 25, 1971. Pakistan Marine battalion under Captain Zamir[50] deployed 3 Naval Marine companies and a Naval platoon at Chittagong in November 1971, while the Marine base PNS Haider was established at Chittagong. Two Fast Gunboats were obtained from Royal Saudi Navy, but PNS Sadaqat and PNS Rifaqat were never deployed in East Pakistan. Pakistan Army increased security at bridges, ferries and ports, setting up numerous bunkers and strong points near these installations.The credit for the rescue of survivors of Khaibar and Muhafiz goes to the gunboat Sadaqat whose single handed efforts saved many lives. It would be recalled that this boat, sent from Saudi Arabia."

Unlike popular perception the Saudi boats were actually manned by Saudi personnel as well according to the Desert warrior book written by a Saudi ex-General.

 

[Armstrong]

^^^^ thats what I'm talking about, Herr Commandant !

 

[Mosamania]

^^^^ thats what I'm talking about, Herr Commandant !

Pakistan is our strategic ally. No matter how much Saudi haters here bash and curse and moan Saudi Arabia and Pakistsni will always be hand in hand especially in military.

By the way did you guys know that Pakistani officers are the only ones other than Saudi officers allowed to command Saudi troops as per Saudi doctrine?? I don't know about Pakistsni doctrine but I think it is the same.

 

[Desert Fox]

The M60 can still serve as a second line battle tank not a main battle tanks. The strategy is derived from the military doctrine of the nation using them. For example Saudi Arabia have been using the Pakistsni military doctrine from the 1970s until 2006 (by the way 2006 is the year of the second Saudi military founding as I like to call it where everything changed which is why purchasing spree and everything to accommodate the change) when we have written our own military doctrine.

In the terms of conventional war the western doctrine says in a nutshell "obliterate by air and clean up by land" (that is why lesser tanks in western armies compared to eastern ones). Our doctrine kind of follows the same lines but with some tweaks considering most our immediate enemies rely on quantity over quality. Not to mention asymmetric warfare which forces land forces to be more engaged in the fighting than the conventional type. This aspect brings the importance of the second line M60s into importance.

As a reserve Tank the M60 can play its role, but in an urban environment its a sitting duck IMO. Considering that the M1 and Leopard Tanks are relatively newer designs and incorporate the latest technologies as a result of the American experience in urban warfare during the Iraq war, therefore the latter two have a much greater chance in tackling asymmetric threats.

 

[Mosamania]

As a reserve Tank the M60 can play its role, but in an urban environment its a sitting duck IMO. Considering that the M1 and Leopard Tanks are relatively newer designs and incorporate the latest technologies as a result of the American experience in urban warfare during the Iraq war, therefore the latter two have a much greater chance in tackling asymmetric threats.

Without a doubt what you say is correct. However asymmetric threats require a larger field presence since intimidation psychology plays a big role in it. For example you can send 3 Leopards to hold on an area but you can send 2 leopards and 2 M60s and that will be even a bigger fear factor not to mention fire power against AK wielding individuals.

Also you must take into account the uranium shells which can be fired from the M60s nozzle. This allows for a higher percentage of hit vs evade using the right formation.

 

[Mosamania]

Really?

Yeah really. That enagement was our first warfare engagement for our navy since it's inception in the 1950s.

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

BTW, Destroyed Al-Zarrar Tank, hit by multiple RPG's as well as IED's, and the crew still survived and the armor was never penetrated. The Crew had to ditch the Tank since it was disabled.

How the Tank looked before the attack:

Impressive... The ATs were RPG-7?

 

[Armstrong]

As a reserve Tank the M60 can play its role, but in an urban environment its a sitting duck IMO. Considering that the M1 and Leopard Tanks are relatively newer designs and incorporate the latest technologies as a result of the American experience in urban warfare during the Iraq war, therefore the latter two have a much greater chance in tackling asymmetric threats.

Mate don't you think that in an Urban environment an upgraded M60 would be an even better option because clearly in there you don't really need depleted UE shells or anything of the sort and even the 120 or 125mm gun would be an over-kill ! You can't really make use of much in the way of speed or mobility either so instead of concentrating on those things a dedicated M60 version can be produced armed with a 100-105mm gun with the rest of the attention given to 1) protection - whether as a Trophy like APS system or ERAs or an upgraded Chobham to protect against multiple hits. And 2) it can have a specialized role e.g as an uber protected troop carrier, an ambulance or for recon !

 

[Desert Fox]

Without a doubt what you say is correct. However asymmetric threats require a larger field presence since intimidation psychology plays a big role in it. For example you can send 3 Leopards to hold on an area but you can send 2 leopards and 2 M60s and that will be even a bigger fear factor not to mention fire power against AK wielding individuals.

True, fear factor does play a role, however if you were to incorporate a well planned strategy as well then your method would make sense, but lets say the situation does not allow that. Your M60's aren't there or happen to be busy holding off enemy armor trying to outflank you and you have to make a breakthrough to prevent your forces from being cut off and the only option is to capture a village or town strategically located with a road network, your only hope is your Leo's who are in the vicinity of the operation?

It would make sense to go with Leo in such a situation since it is better prepared for urban conflict.

Also you must take into account the uranium shells which can be fired from the M60s nozzle. This allows for a higher percentage of hit vs evade using the right formation.

Not a good idea, unless you want the people of that town, city, or village to die of cancer and their next generation totally destroyed.

IMO, such munitions are only to be used in open area not inhabited by civilian population.

 

[Mosamania]

Mate don't you think that in an Urban environment an upgraded M60 would be an even better option because clearly in there you don't really need depleted UE shells or anything of the sort and even the 120 or 125mm gun would be an over-kill ! You can't really make use of much in the way of speed or mobility either so instead of concentrating on those things a dedicated M60 version can be produced armed with a 100-105mm gun with the rest of the attention given to 1) protection - whether as a Trophy like APS system or ERAs or an upgraded Chobham to protect against multiple hits. And 2) it can have a specialized role e.g as an uber protected troop carrier, an ambulance or for recon !

Who the hell uses tanks for recon these days?? Tanks in western doctrine are for holding ground. In eastern doctrine tanks are for invading. You don't recon with them unless you want to know if there is an enemy or not there by the tank not coming back.

 

[Desert Fox]

Impressive... The ATs were RPG-7?

It was an engagement with the talibunnies in our hilly region. The Tank was hit by multiple RPG's at close range after it struck IED's laid in its path. The Tracks were damaged but the armor was never penetrated and the crew survived to tell the tale.

In the end the crew scuttled the Tank to prevent it from falling into terrorist hands.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Impressive... The ATs were RPG-7?

RPG-7s and IEDs.

 

[Mosamania]

True, fear factor does play a role, however if you were to incorporate a well planned strategy as well then your method would make sense, but lets say the situation does not allow that. Your M60's aren't there or happen to be busy holding off enemy armor trying to outflank you and you have to make a breakthrough to prevent your forces from being cut off and the only option is to capture a village or town strategically located with a road network, your only hope is your Leo's who are in the vicinity of the operation?

It would make sense to go with Leo in such a situation since it is better prepared for urban conflict.


Not a good idea, unless you want the people of that town, city, or village to die of cancer and their next generation totally destroyed.

IMO, such munitions are only to be used in open area not inhabited by civilian population.

Asymmetric warfare means no enemy armor. Just AK and RPG ambushes maybe katyusha here and there. And a few headache inducing snipers. Your scenario calls for the M1A2S and Leos being deployed while M60s are beig used to hold grounds. And AirForce taking care of the rest. And I am speaking in the extremest layman's terms possible.

Not a good idea, unless you want the people of that town, city, or village to die of cancer and their next generation totally destroyed.

IMO, such munitions are only to be used in open area not inhabited by civilian population.

It is extremely unlikely that a WW2 urban armor vs armor scenario is to happen again unless once in a 30 wars sort to speak. Nothing on the ground can survive an air force dominating the air.

 

[Armstrong]

Who the hell uses tanks for recon these days?? Tanks in western doctrine are for holding ground. In eastern doctrine tanks are for invading. You don't recon with them unless you want to know if there is an enemy or not there by the tank not coming back.

Alright so they don't I used to do that in Command and Conquer Red Alert 2 and later in the Generals !

But when I made the comment about it being a specialized version I was thinking of Israel's Merkava LIC which is especially geared towards Low Intensity Conflict so perhaps a version of the M60 can be come up with which is ill-suited to a tank battle but is custom built for a LIC within cities, clearing insurgents and the sort armed with small arms and RPGs of the sort !