Saudi Arabia Has Started An Arms Race

[Awan68]

Did not read.

Let us get back on topic.

What do reasonable members think Iran has to do to increase the production and advancement rate of it's current promising fields (the first 4 I mentioned in the OP)? Looks to me that the budget has to be expanded in all areas to facilitate faster delivery of all this equipment.

Obviously there has to be something done about the IRIAF, but given the political uncertainties it is difficult to predict.

@Awan68 the JF-17 is a multirole aircraft. Most countries need a high-low mix of capabilities. For Pakistan, the F-16 provides the high capability end, and the JF-17 provides the low end. The F-16 plays the role of Pakistan's air superiority fighter. So by just getting the JF-17, the IRIAF really is incomplete, and has to get the high end of capabilities from somewhere. It is speculated this could be in the form of the Su-30SM. That itself is a highly capable multirole aircraft, which although the twin seat cockpit provides great flexibility, the large radar and high manoeuvrability would mean the Su-30 would be the high capability end of the IRIAF. But I'm not sure really if Iran had the ability to acquire the Su-30SM, it would also go for the JF-17. The Su-30SM could be a sort of stop gap, a short term solution until domestic projects can gain momentum. Thus a large JF-17 purchase on top of the Su-30 may not be attractive if Iran thinks it can make something in the role of the JF-17 by itself.

Not doubting iran's capabilities but no u cant, not quickly anyhow.

Jf 17 block 3 will be a block 3 4.5 gen jet with "aesa" , "irst".One cant even make the two things mentioned above before research and development of a decade and atleast another 5 years for finalizing, tweeking it out before productions prototypes are made, let alone an entire jet.

Im just stating cold hard facts here man, tag any aviation expert here and he will tell u the same.

Pakistan started the programe in early 90's and an MOU was signed in 95, it took us atleast 17 yrs for the prgramme to take shape and give fruits and we had the unrestricted help of the chinese aviation industry in it.

U obviously dont know man how difficult it is to create a 4-4.5 gen jet, india started their tejas programme in the 80's and they still havent inducted thier jet nor do they have a final protoype decided.

We also had access to some techs of world powers due to our intense collaboration with the Us in afghan jihad etc against soviets. We learned a lot from the f 16's we have had for a long time and our experience with overhauling mirages.

These things take time and if iran is to get into the aviation field right now it would take 15 yrs for the programme to give fruit and even that timeline is dependant upon outside help which as things stand right now, i see no country that would be willing to help u in the aviation field atleast. This is why i always say iran must abandon its plans in the ME, start to build relations with other countries including western ones. Get ur country of the radar, the brave die young and foolish and i dont want anything to happen to iran. First build power and than u can do whatever u want but do go in there half cocked, not the smart way man.

Missles and Sams are overrated, look what happened to nations like libya and iraq who relied too heavily on them and didnt have a working serious AF.

Concerning the jf 17 propgramme i dont think pak-china would be willing to do a TOT deal with u, not for block 3 in any case as it incorporates 5th gen techs in it like the radar which is also in use with j 31 among other things, the most u can get is an assembly line.

Iran is weak economically so u cant afford a large number of even su 30's, the best u can do right now is get 30-40 su 30's or j 16's and 100-150 jf 17's provided pak-china sells it to u because its a big if as saudis-Us will try their best to even sabootage that deal and as u knw pakistan has longer standing ties with the saudis(i dont like it) but its how it is.

The saudis have been seriously looking at the jf 17's for a while now and many cricles have reported that they are waiting for block 3 and jf 17b to be inducted to order a large number, so if they place a large order than they will push us not to sell any to u. @Windjammer @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bro, purchasing of JF 17 needs confirmation of multiple countries. Moreover we are still under UN sanctions and until the next 3-4 years we are unable to import fighter jets from foreign sources.
If thunder was completely produced in Pakistan, believe me we would replace our exhausted F-4s and F-5s with 150-250 thunders but it is a multi national product just like the F-35 lightning.

We have to develop homemade fighters and then think about importing them. We are working hardly, developing turbofan engines capable of thrust vectoring.

Only Pakistan and China hold selling and all other rights on it, no one else.

In house prgramme's will take u atleast 15 to 20 yrs, are u willing to wait that long without a working AF? specially as things are heating up right now.

Im just speculationg here, its not confirmed that pak-china will sell jf 17 to u as saudis are looking at the jet and if they place an order first they will push us not to sell to u.

 

[warfareknow]

Well when your neighbors have aimed their weapons toward you, then you want peace?

Don't be that naive. Even European wanted peace but when WW2 happened they massacred millions of each other. Actually in world no one wants peace. Every hellhole country wants mischief to increase its power. Only fools put their heads in sands and talk about peace...

My lord the great flying spaghetti monster will bring peace :p

 

[Aramagedon]

I think it went into turmoil the moment they supported Saddam in 1980.

Saudi helped saddam against Iran at least 97$ billion :

Iran’s Rouhani vows to continue missile tests, calls Riyadh summit ‘show off’

Iranian President Hassan Rouhani speaks during a press conference in Tehran on May 22, 2017. Rouhani said that Iran does not need the permission of the United States to conduct missile tests, which would continue "if technically necessary". Photo: AFP

Iranian President Hassan Rouhani downplayed the multi-billion arms sale signed over the weekend between the United States and Saudi Arabia, while warning Washington that Iran will continue to carry out missile tests whenever they wish, without seeking American permission.

US President Donald Trump, who signed the arms deal while he was in the Saudi capital to attend the summit focused on fighting terrorism, accused Iran of being responsible “for so much instability in the region” as he addressed some 40 Arab and Islamic nations.

Rouhani downplayed the importance of the summit.
“The summit in Saudi Arabia, in my view, was a show off and did not have and will never have any political or practical value,” he said Monday in Tehran in a press conference broadcast live on TV.

In his first press conference with local and international media since his re-election, Rouhani’s landslide victory was overshadowed by harsh remarks from Riyadh and Washington against Tehran.

Rouhani said that Saudi Arabia and the United States have been wrong for much of the length of the Iranian revolution since 1979 and he criticized the nearly $110 billion arms sale signed between the two countries.

“Saudi Arabia may believe they need to purchase weapons,” Rouhani said. “We do not have to purchase weapons. We make weapons.”

He added that Saudi Arabia will not be able to use these weapons and will continue to depend on American advisors in the region to protect its interests.

Concluding his two-day visit to Saudi Arabia, Trump departed to Israel on Monday, making what is believed to be the first direct flight between the Islamic and Jewish governments.

Trump’s choice of Riyadh as the first stop for his inaugural trip abroad as president carries symbolic and strategic significance in terms of the rivalry between the two Muslim nations of Iran and Saudi Arabia. His next stop carries no less concern for Iran as relations between Tehran and Tel Aviv have always been strained.

"Iran must never be allowed to possess a nuclear weapon," Trump told reporters in Jerusalem, speaking beside Israeli President Reuven Rivlin, a message that goes down well in Israel where Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has frequently called Iran’s nuclear deal bad for the US, Israel, and the world.

President Rouhani said that while the US has been wrong at almost every turn over the last 39 years, the 2015 nuclear deal the two countries signed was an exception as they have both benefited from it.

US and Saudi Arabia

Rouhani said that the Trump visit to Riyadh came at a time when more than 40 million Iranians cast ballots in Friday’s elections, yet he chose to visit a country where elections are not held.

“He went to a country where I believe at no point in time the concept and word ‘election’ has ever had any meaning for them,” Rouhani said of the Sunni kingdom. “They have never seen a ballot box.”

He said it is not the first time Riyadh has spent billions of dollars on arms, claiming that the rival country funded the former Iraqi regime under Saddam Hussein to the tune of nearly $97 billion. In that instance, he added, the Saudi Arabia saw the results of such deals.
H also invoked the memory of the 9/11 terror attacks.

“I do not think the people of America will bargain with the blood shed on 9/11 in return for billions of dollars in arms sales.”

US and Iran

Relations between the US and Iran have gone through a “curvy road” over the last 39 years, Rouhani said, during which the US tried various methods against Iran, all of which resulted in “failure.”

The one exception was when the administration of former US President Barack Obama came to the negotiation table and dealt with Iran “with respect,” signing the nuclear deal during Rouhani’s first term in office.

“The problem is that the Americans do not understand this region,” Rouhani said of US policy in the Middle East.

He said the nuclear deal has a “win-win” result from which the two sides benefit.

Regarding future relations between his government and the new Trump administration, Rouhani said that the US government is still in transition mode and therefore its policies are not clear.

He said Iran needs some more time before the Trump administration “settles down” and its plans become clearer so that Tehran can make a “more accurate judgement” regarding Trump’s plans.

Addressing new US sanctions against Iran following a recent ballistic missile test, Rouhani said the missile program is for “peace and defence,” explaining that the country has chosen to be powerful so that foreign nations will not make “miscalculations” with regard to Iran’s strength.

“American officials should know that whenever we need to technically test a missile, we will do so and will not wait for their permission,” Rouhani said.

Syria and Iraq

The Iranian president said that support to the Iraqi and Syrian governments will continue under his government, but maintained that it is these two nations themselves who have faced the threat of "terrorism" in their countries with the help of other countries including Iran.

“The Iranian nation, through its diplomats, and military advisors, has helped these two great nations and other nations, and will continue to help them.”

He said every nation has to realize that, without Iran, peace and stability is not possible in the region and vowed to “root out terrorism” in the Middle East and work to return stability over the next four years of his presidency.

“Who can claim that without Iran the stability in this region could be preserved?” he asked.

In his victory speech on Saturday, Rouhani said that his country is open to extend its open policy towards the world.

“[Iran] is prepared to extend its relations with the world based on mutual respect and own national interest,” Rouhani said in a message to the outside world meant to invite more investment and stronger relations with foreign countries in light of the nuclear deal his government signed with the western countries that lifted crippling sanctions in return for monitoring the country’s nuclear program by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).

The message of the election that saw him winning most of the votes is choosing "peace and friendship" over "violence and extremism," Rouhani said.

He warned though that Iran’s relations under his presidency do not accept “intimidation or humiliation" and added that this is the most important message from the people of Iran to the outside world.

 

[rmi5]

Did not read.

Let us get back on topic.

What do reasonable members think Iran has to do to increase the production and advancement rate of it's current promising fields (the first 4 I mentioned in the OP)? Looks to me that the budget has to be expanded in all areas to facilitate faster delivery of all this equipment.

Obviously there has to be something done about the IRIAF, but given the political uncertainties it is difficult to predict.

@Awan68 the JF-17 is a multirole aircraft. Most countries need a high-low mix of capabilities. For Pakistan, the F-16 provides the high capability end, and the JF-17 provides the low end. The F-16 plays the role of Pakistan's air superiority fighter. So by just getting the JF-17, the IRIAF really is incomplete, and has to get the high end of capabilities from somewhere. It is speculated this could be in the form of the Su-30SM. That itself is a highly capable multirole aircraft, which although the twin seat cockpit provides great flexibility, the large radar and high manoeuvrability would mean the Su-30 would be the high capability end of the IRIAF. But I'm not sure really if Iran had the ability to acquire the Su-30SM, it would also go for the JF-17. The Su-30SM could be a sort of stop gap, a short term solution until domestic projects can gain momentum. Thus a large JF-17 purchase on top of the Su-30 may not be attractive if Iran thinks it can make something in the role of the JF-17 by itself.

Nothing special, they already know what to do, just the the progress rate should increase; hence, 1. increasing the budget, 2. 24/7 work on the fields you mentioned before is needed.
I don't know why you are discussing with the Pakistani guy. China offered the same jet production plan to Iran many years ago, IRIAF pilots even did flight test, and 100% disapproved it for many reasons. This story was for many years ago. Now, even if they give us the jets for free, it would be no good, and just adds to maintenance costs. Air force just needs some very high end stealth jets, like Qaher and another semi-heavy/heavy jet version of it, plus some Su-30 to fill the gap until full production of 5th gen jets, and to help F-14s.

@AmirPatriot BTW,What matters more than war toys in a real war, is forex, and the ability to provide logistics; thus, forex and self-sufficiency are important. considering the FOREX reserves of Saudis, they literally banckrupted themselves with the new deal; hence, I'm even happy that they signed the deal. Saudis are milked to the last drop of their forex. Now, they are toothless pigs.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/saudi-arabia/foreign-exchange-reserves

I suggest you to read with what mechanism Saudis should pay for the deal.

 

[Awan68]

Nothing special, they already know what to do, just the the progress rate should increase; hence, 1. increasing the budget, 2. 24/7 work on the fields you mentioned before is needed.
I don't know why you are discussing with the Pakistani guy. China offered the same jet production plan to Iran many years ago, IRIAF pilots even did flight test, and 100% disapproved it for many reasons. This story was for many years ago. Now, even if they give us the jets for free, it would be no good, and just adds to maintenance costs. Air force just needs some very high end stealth jets, like Qaher and another semi-heavy/heavy jet version of it, plus some Su-30 to fill the gap until full production of 5th gen jets, and to help F-14s.

, what fantsay world do u live in??, lol, ur worse than the indians.....atleast they knw whats what admist their trolling...anyways keep wading in that honey pool u just cooked up while we sell to the competition........iam outta here.

 

[rmi5]

, what fantsay world do u live in??, lol, ur worse than the indians.....atleast they knw whats what admist their trolling...anyways keep wading in that honey pool u just cooked up while we sell to the competition........

Neither you're the salesman, nor I'm the buyer. Obviously, you don't know anything about Iran's capabilities and demands either, and I don't have spare time and interest to teach this stuff to someone on the other side of the planet. so, have a good night, son.

 

[Awan68]

Neither you're the salesman, nor I'm the buyer. Obviously, you don't know anything about Iran's capabilities and demands either, and I don't have spare time and interest to teach this stuff to someone on the other side of the planet. so, have a good night, son.

Dont make me laugh kid......

 

[Valdron.223]

The Saudi's may be getting all of these weapons but it only matters if they have a strong disciplined fighting force. Look at Iraq for example. They were given American weapons and it didn't mean anything when they first fought ISIS. The same thing happens when the Houthis do a border raid in Jizan,Najran or Asir against Saudi troops. They do not trust their troops so much that they did not even send ground forces in Yemen. They instead hired mercenaries from Latin America and Africa to do the ground fighting.

Iran should continue to strengthen its asymmetrical warfare capabilities. That is not to say they should ignore it conventional military capabilities. Once the arms embargo is lifted Iran should buy weapons that complement their asymmetrical defense strategy. The only area that the Iranians are in need of immediate help is their air force's strike capability.


Iran recently got the advanced S-300 air defense system which has hundreds of missiles to protect Iranian skies. Add on top of that that Bavar 373 which is a more advanced version of S-300. It does not matter how many jets the Saudis have. Only the US is able to take out the S-300 and to do so they will need to bring in more air assets and even stealth bombers(something Saudis do not have). And to destroy those air defense systems they will only focus on them. That means other targets like ballistic missiles sites, and other targets will be left alone. What that means it will give Iran time to inflict more damage. So if there is a war GCC will have to choose whether to bomb S-300 and Bavar or bomb Iranian ballistic missiles sites. Damned if they do damn if they don't. So to complement the S-300 and Bavar systems Iran should when the embargo ends buy maybe 50 Su-30s and 50 Su-35s. That is 100 new multirole fighter jets which will further fortify Iran's airspace.

In the Naval front Iran's strategy will be to invest in its massive anti-ship arsenal. The Persian Gulf is very narrow and makes anti-ship missiles more effective. However, to further boost its anti-ship arsenal it should buy a few Yakhont anti-ship missiles. Hezbollah has them and it scares the crap out of the Israeli Navy. Can't imagine the damage that could be done with Yakhont missiles in the narrow Gulf.

In the end, Iran should just continue its asymmetrical strategy but tweak it with a few purchases here and there. What it can do is supply its proxies in Iraq the same way as Hezbollah. It is high time for many of the shia militias in Iraq to unite into one force. Iran should supply them with MANPADS, ATGMs, missiles, rockets because I wouldn't be surprised if this new Arab NATO led by Bin Salaman decides to enter Iraq to disarm shia militias in the future. Another idea is to turn Yemen into Saudi Arabia's Afghanistan. Iran should send more ATGMS, teach them how to make IEDs. Hell aid the Houthis to instigate an armed revolt in Jizan, Asir and Najran. In the end war isint about tech only it is about strategy and will. I do not think the Saudis or GCC states will start a war unless Bin Salaman smokes crack one day. They know a war is not in their favor. It would be Millenium Challenge 2002 on steroids.

 

[Nexus]

How's that?


Just interests I assume.

What kind of Interest?

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

The Saudi's may be getting all of these weapons but it only matters if they have a strong disciplined fighting force. Look at Iraq for example. They were given American weapons and it didn't mean anything when they first fought ISIS. The same thing happens when the Houthis do a border raid in Jizan,Najran or Asir against Saudi troops. They do not trust their troops so much that they did not even send ground forces in Yemen. They instead hired mercenaries from Latin America and Africa to do the ground fighting.

Iran should continue to strengthen its asymmetrical warfare capabilities. That is not to say they should ignore it conventional military capabilities. Once the arms embargo is lifted Iran should buy weapons that complement their asymmetrical defense strategy. The only area that the Iranians are in need of immediate help is their air force's strike capability.


Iran recently got the advanced S-300 air defense system which has hundreds of missiles to protect Iranian skies. Add on top of that that Bavar 373 which is a more advanced version of S-300. It does not matter how many jets the Saudis have. Only the US is able to take out the S-300 and to do so they will need to bring in more air assets and even stealth bombers(something Saudis do not have). And to destroy those air defense systems they will only focus on them. That means other targets like ballistic missiles sites, and other targets will be left alone. What that means it will give Iran time to inflict more damage. So if there is a war GCC will have to choose whether to bomb S-300 and Bavar or bomb Iranian ballistic missiles sites. Damned if they do damn if they don't. So to complement the S-300 and Bavar systems Iran should when the embargo ends buy maybe 50 Su-30s and 50 Su-35s. That is 100 new multirole fighter jets which will further fortify Iran's airspace.

In the Naval front Iran's strategy will be to invest in its massive anti-ship arsenal. The Persian Gulf is very narrow and makes anti-ship missiles more effective. However, to further boost its anti-ship arsenal it should buy a few Yakhont anti-ship missiles. Hezbollah has them and it scares the crap out of the Israeli Navy. Can't imagine the damage that could be done with Yakhont missiles in the narrow Gulf.

In the end, Iran should just continue its asymmetrical strategy but tweak it with a few purchases here and there. What it can do is supply its proxies in Iraq the same way as Hezbollah. It is high time for many of the shia militias in Iraq to unite into one force. Iran should supply them with MANPADS, ATGMs, missiles, rockets because I wouldn't be surprised if this new Arab NATO led by Bin Salaman decides to enter Iraq to disarm shia militias in the future. Another idea is to turn Yemen into Saudi Arabia's Afghanistan. Iran should send more ATGMS, teach them how to make IEDs. Hell aid the Houthis to instigate an armed revolt in Jizan, Asir and Najran. In the end war isint about tech only it is about strategy and will. I do not think the Saudis or GCC states will start a war unless Bin Salaman smokes crack one day. They know a war is not in their favor. It would be Millenium Challenge 2002 on steroids.

Why is war-winning Pak team stationed in the KSA for?????? Iran doesn't dare to take any false moves!!!!! The Persian dreams of Xerxes are over!!!!!

Not doubting iran's capabilities but no u cant, not quickly anyhow.

Jf 17 block 3 will be a block 3 4.5 gen jet with "aesa" , "irst".One cant even make the two things mentioned above before research and development of a decade and atleast another 5 years for finalizing, tweeking it out before productions prototypes are made, let alone an entire jet.

Im just stating cold hard facts here man, tag any aviation expert here and he will tell u the same.

Pakistan started the programe in early 90's and an MOU was signed in 95, it took us atleast 17 yrs for the prgramme to take shape and give fruits and we had the unrestricted help of the chinese aviation industry in it.

U obviously dont know man how difficult it is to create a 4-4.5 gen jet, india started their tejas programme in the 80's and they still havent inducted thier jet nor do they have a final protoype decided.

We also had access to some techs of world powers due to our intense collaboration with the Us in afghan jihad etc against soviets. We learned a lot from the f 16's we have had for a long time and our experience with overhauling mirages.

These things take time and if iran is to get into the aviation field right now it would take 15 yrs for the programme to give fruit and even that timeline is dependant upon outside help which as things stand right now, i see no country that would be willing to help u in the aviation field atleast. This is why i always say iran must abandon its plans in the ME, start to build relations with other countries including western ones. Get ur country of the radar, the brave die young and foolish and i dont want anything to happen to iran. First build power and than u can do whatever u want but do go in there half cocked, not the smart way man.

Missles and Sams are overrated, look what happened to nations like libya and iraq who relied too heavily on them and didnt have a working serious AF.

Concerning the jf 17 propgramme i dont think pak-china would be willing to do a TOT deal with u, not for block 3 in any case as it incorporates 5th gen techs in it like the radar which is also in use with j 31 among other things, the most u can get is an assembly line.

Iran is weak economically so u cant afford a large number of even su 30's, the best u can do right now is get 30-40 su 30's or j 16's and 100-150 jf 17's provided pak-china sells it to u because its a big if as saudis-Us will try their best to even sabootage that deal and as u knw pakistan has longer standing ties with the saudis(i dont like it) but its how it is.

The saudis have been seriously looking at the jf 17's for a while now and many cricles have reported that they are waiting for block 3 and jf 17b to be inducted to order a large number, so if they place a large order than they will push us not to sell any to u. @Windjammer @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Only Pakistan and China hold selling and all other rights on it, no one else.

In house prgramme's will take u atleast 15 to 20 yrs, are u willing to wait that long without a working AF? specially as things are heating up right now.

Im just speculationg here, its not confirmed that pak-china will sell jf 17 to u as saudis are looking at the jet and if they place an order first they will push us not to sell to u.

Kadreshim!!! You're beating the shadows!!!! Pak has already made the move!!! And, it's all per planning!!!! Now, Iranians are put in a checkmate and they will roll back!!!!!!

 

[Awan68]

Why is war-winning Pak team stationed in the KSA for?????? Iran doesn't dare to take any false moves!!!!! The Persian dreams of Xerxes are over!!!!!


Kadreshim!!! You're beating the shadows!!!! Pak has already made the move!!! And, it's all per planning!!!! Now, Iranians are put in a checkmate and they will roll back!!!!!!

Foolish pride will be their downfall, they still arent akin to the principles of globalization which the crusaders learned from rashidun n ottomans.. pakistan maintains cordial relations with everyone on the surface while covert objectives are achieved via backdoors and tools of strategic depth!!, trukey understands this principle too hence it mantains workable realtions with everyone...closing doors is the same as isolating urself and iran is doing exactly that..

 

[SorryNotSorry]

An all out war on Iran is unlikely in my view- thus I voted "NO". That said- the Saudi arsenal is impressive- however Iran's missiles will be a very formidable deterrent to any conventional force.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Foolish pride will be their downfall, they still arent akin to the principles of globalization which the crusaders learned from rashidun n ottomans.. pakistan maintains cordial relations with everyone on the surface while covert objectives are achieved via backdoors and tools of strategic depth!!, trukey understands this principle too hence it mantains workable realtions with everyone...closing doors is the same as isolating urself and iran is doing exactly that..

Pak is a master in this "silent" game!!! Howling and wailing don't match with the folks at the top!!!! Thanks to Iran/India, Pak is now projecting power, albeit rather early!!!!!

 

[veg]

Air Force is over Rated now a days. If anti air systems are able to hit the Missiles, then surely fighter jets have even less chances of surviving than the missiles.

Moreover, today Dog Fights are no more there, but fighter jets are destroyed by using Air to Air missiles. I don't remember when last time Dog Fight was done in order to hit the opponent jet.

If Iran's ground missiles are unable to hit Saudi , then surely Iranian Air to Air missiles will also not be able to hit Saudi F15s.

On the contrary, if Iranian missiles are successful in hitting Saudi/US F 15s, then Iran can use the following as alternative approach:


(1) Develop cheap, small, slow flying unmanned Stealth Drones in large numbers, which carry only 1 or max. 2 Iranian Air to Air missiles.

(2) They should fly in large numbers in Iranian Skies.

(3) Their speed is not an issue, but they should be able to stay for longer time in the air.

(3) They should also have passive Radars, which should be connected to the ground Radars network.


This could work very well for Defensive war.

 

[klaus959]

What you all need is a break from weapons !!!!