Sane Indian Cautions Against "Unconcealed Delight"

[RiazHaq]

Shekhar Gupta of Indian Express argues that India has "a stake in Pakistan’s survival and moderation as a democratic state" and warns against "utterly unconcealed sense of delight" about the daily carnage in Pakistan. Gupta cautions against the prevailing "smugness" in his country and adds, "This is not just the mood of the mobs here. Even the “intelligentsia”, the TV talking heads, opinion page columnists, government spokespersons, all have the same smug air of “I-told-you-so” and “so-what-else-did-they-expect” satisfaction. And they ask the same patronizing question: hell, can Pakistan be saved?"

Gupta concludes his piece by saying, "Time has therefore come to nuance our policy as well as national mood and psychology, to not merely reopen communication with Pakistan but to also make moves, offers, anything that will enhance the power and credibility of its government which, with all its faults, is still the most moderate of all forces in that region. Finally, time has also come to set in place some kind of diplomatic standard operating procedures in case more terror attacks take place because a third round of coercive diplomacy may spin out of control. We have to now demonstrate a stake in Pakistan’s survival and moderation as a democratic state. Just bombing somebody there in anger won’t work, because people who are targeting us are also targeting the rest of the modern world, from Chicago to Copenhagen."

Haq's Musings: India's Sane Voice Warns Against Smugness

Haq's Musings: Obama's Retreat in Mid East and South Asia

 

[RobbieS]

Shekhar Gupta of Indian Express argues that India has "a stake in Pakistan’s survival and moderation as a democratic state" and warns against "utterly unconcealed sense of delight" about the daily carnage in Pakistan. Gupta cautions against the prevailing "smugness" in his country and adds, "This is not just the mood of the mobs here. Even the “intelligentsia”, the TV talking heads, opinion page columnists, government spokespersons, all have the same smug air of “I-told-you-so” and “so-what-else-did-they-expect” satisfaction. And they ask the same patronizing question: hell, can Pakistan be saved?"

Gupta concludes his piece by saying, "Time has therefore come to nuance our policy as well as national mood and psychology, to not merely reopen communication with Pakistan but to also make moves, offers, anything that will enhance the power and credibility of its government which, with all its faults, is still the most moderate of all forces in that region. Finally, time has also come to set in place some kind of diplomatic standard operating procedures in case more terror attacks take place because a third round of coercive diplomacy may spin out of control. We have to now demonstrate a stake in Pakistan’s survival and moderation as a democratic state. Just bombing somebody there in anger won’t work, because people who are targeting us are also targeting the rest of the modern world, from Chicago to Copenhagen."

Haq's Musings: India's Sane Voice Warns Against Smugness

Haq's Musings: Obama's Retreat in Mid East and South Asia

For all the sane voices being quoted, there are a thousand many in India. The only question is Trust! How can India trust a govt. whose people have openly supported anti-India causes and allowed their land to be used for anti-India activities. The same Gen. Musharraf started the Kargil mis-adventure and later came happily to the Agra peace summit. Terrorist camps were started and money was pumped in through *** (Azad Kashmir) into Kashmir. Lashkar, Jaish (started by Maulana Azhar) and countless other terrorist organizations operating from Pakistan. Can we still trust Pakistan?

And I don't know what's the solution or how we can end all this. Kashmir has to be solved first. Probably a period of peaceful existence without any terror attack. But one attack and thing swill go back to the way they were.

 

[RiazHaq]

For all the sane voices being quoted, there are a thousand many in India. The only question is Trust! How can India trust a govt. whose people have openly supported anti-India causes and allowed their land to be used for anti-India activities. The same Gen. Musharraf started the Kargil mis-adventure and later came happily to the Agra peace summit. Terrorist camps were started and money was pumped in through *** (Azad Kashmir) into Kashmir. Lashkar, Jaish (started by Maulana Azhar) and countless other terrorist organizations operating from Pakistan. Can we still trust Pakistan?

And I don't know what's the solution or how we can end all this. Kashmir has to be solved first. Probably a period of peaceful existence without any terror attack. But one attack and thing swill go back to the way they were.

Here's how I understand Shekhar Gupta's arguments:

If terrorism continues to grow in Pakistan and the terrorists, who are a very small minority in a nation of 170 million, score any significant victories, more frequent and bigger attacks in India will become inevitable. Some of these attacks will precipitate a much more deadly conflict between India and Pakistan that will destroy both nations. The gung-ho urban middle class in India which seems to be enjoying the death and destruction in Pakistan will become the biggest losers of India-Pak conflict. A strong Pakistani democratic and moderate state that delivers economic well-being is the only hope for India to prevent this from happening.

I think Gupta's analysis is spot on.

 

[RobbieS]

Here's how I understand Shekhar Gupta's arguments:

If terrorism continues to grow in Pakistan and the terrorists, who are a very small minority in a nation of 170 million, score any significant victories, more frequent and bigger attacks in India will become inevitable. Some of these attacks will precipitate a much more deadly conflict between India and Pakistan that will destroy both nations. The gung-ho urban middle class in India which seems to be enjoying the death and destruction in Pakistan will become the biggest losers of India-Pak conflict. A strong Pakistani democratic and moderate state that delivers economic well-being is the only hope for India to prevent this from happening.

I think Gupta's analysis is spot on.

It's an absolutely undeniable fact that defeat of terrorism in Pakistan will lead to a stronger and stable Pakistan. But that will lead to a stable India is not sure yet. After all, governments under Bhutto and Sharif (in the 90's) were democratic stable governments but Punjab and Kashmir boiled during those regimes.

For India its a tough choice, see Pakistan burn (add fuel in some cases) or help fight the fire. My suggestion would be wait and watch. Untill the US is done with its WoT, India doesn't need to get involved in anything.

 

[PlanetWarrior]

It's an absolutely undeniable fact that defeat of terrorism in Pakistan will lead to a stronger and stable Pakistan. But that will lead to a stable India is not sure yet. After all, governments under Bhutto and Sharif (in the 90's) were democratic stable governments but Punjab and Kashmir boiled during those regimes.

For India its a tough choice, see Pakistan burn (add fuel in some cases) or help fight the fire. My suggestion would be wait and watch. Untill the US is done with its WoT, India doesn't need to get involved in anything.

India can never be a prosperous state with its desired goals whilst Pakistan remains unstable. The fact which is often missed by Indians is that when somebody in Pakistan lets off gas, the air drifts it down to India eventually. Point being that whatever stink originates in Pakistan drifts down to India. The only solution for India and her government IMO is that India starts seriously investing in Pakistan's stability. As for the issue of Kashmir and terrorism in Pakistan, serious talks in good faith needs to be commenced by both states. It is about time that both India and Pakistan appoints diplomats to talk to each other who are flexible and are able to see each other's point of view when it comes to regional security issues. Also, everytime that talks are about to commence, politicians must be cautioned on both sides not to start their ego inflating remarks about the expectations from those talks. It will take time but the cake can be baked by both sides if they appoint pragmatic diplomats to sort out the 62 year history of mess

 

[RobbieS]

India can never be a prosperous state with its desired goals whilst Pakistan remains unstable. The fact which is often missed by Indians is that when somebody in Pakistan lets off gas, the air drifts it down to India eventually. Point being that whatever stink originates in Pakistan drifts down to India. The only solution for India and her government IMO is that India starts seriously investing in Pakistan's stability. As for the issue of Kashmir and terrorism in Pakistan, serious talks in good faith needs to be commenced by both states. It is about time that both India and Pakistan appoints diplomats to talk to each other who are flexible and are able to see each other's point of view when it comes to regional security issues. Also, everytime that talks are about to commence, politicians must be cautioned on both sides not to start their ego inflating remarks about the expectations from those talks. It will take time but the cake can be baked by both sides if they appoint pragmatic diplomats to sort out the 62 year history of mess

Bro, politicians aside, I find it hard to trust the military establishment (including ISI) of Pakistan. They are opportunistic fellows who will do anything for their own survival. I ain't a hawk but Pakistan needs to do a lot more to gain my trust. Let them elect democratic governments, no nuclear-proliferation to rogue nations and no terror support for 50 years and we can talk then.

 

[PlanetWarrior]

Bro, politicians aside, I find it hard to trust the military establishment (including ISI) of Pakistan. They are opportunistic fellows who will do anything for their own survival. I ain't a hawk but Pakistan needs to do a lot more to gain my trust. Let them elect democratic governments, no nuclear-proliferation to rogue nations and no terror support for 50 years and we can talk then.

Well said. But that is my point exactly. While we can reign in our politicians they can never control their military establishments. Even when they have a stable government their military creates its own foreign policy. Left hand and right hand can never work in tandem there. That was my point about appointing diplomats with substance and a measure of power making decisions from both sides and locking everybody out

 

[maheshbhat]

Everyone in Pakistan including defence, politicians, business, and all never forget to remind India that a unstable Pakistan is not good for India. This view is being accepted by the majority of Indians.

But I have not even found one instance where a stable Pakistan did any good for India except death and destruction.

Should I have to learn from History OR depend on a Tarrot prediction that a stable Pakistan will be in better interest to India rather than a unstable Pakistan. Could somebody educate me please.

Can some Indians educate me on how a unstable Pakistan will do more damage to India than a stable Pakistan.

 

[HAIDER]

Nodoubt Trust deficit exist among both nation. But If Indian raising the slogan of trust , then Pakistani already bitten by the creation of Bangladesh (Indian govt openly involve and still claims the responsibility of creation of Bangladesh), training hardcore anti govt MQM clans, open insurgency in Baluchistan. But bottom line is Kashmir issue, but every day India raise new issues. Now a water issue, which is the most dangerous. Its the survival of nation.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Everyone in Pakistan including defence, politicians, business, and all never forget to remind India that a unstable Pakistan is not good for India. This view is being accepted by the majority of Indians.

But I have not even found one instance where a stable Pakistan did any good for India except death and destruction.

Should I have to learn from History OR depend on a Tarrot prediction that a stable Pakistan will be in better interest to India rather than a unstable Pakistan. Could somebody educate me please.

Can some Indians educate me on how a unstable Pakistan will do more damage to India than a stable Pakistan.

1990 Benazir Gov handed over the Sikh Leaders and details about the Khalsa movement to Rajiv Gandhi.

2009, Zardari has literally given India a free hand to cut the river flow as it pleases.

U are lucky you can still claim punjab because a ( woman who earns money in exchange for sex) = Benazir wanted to make more money !

 

[Bushy]

For all I know of Pakistan, India has acutely limited choices between.... Bad or Worse. I think the Bad is any time better than the Worse that could be. Or is.

A democratic (even if corrupt!) government in Pakistan is any time better than a religion-centric fundamentalist authority with limited or no control over the religious extremists.

 

[Bushy]

2009, Zardari has literally given India a free hand to cut the river flow as it pleases.

U are lucky you can still claim punjab because a ( woman who earns money in exchange for sex) = Benazir wanted to make more money !

Hi Salman, unless you take this forum to be completely biased, I would very much like you to cite some credible source(s) supporting your statements I mentioned above.

However, no qualms if your doubts align with mine.

 

[third eye]

Everyone in Pakistan including defence, politicians, business, and all never forget to remind India that a unstable Pakistan is not good for India. This view is being accepted by the majority of Indians.

But I have not even found one instance where a stable Pakistan did any good for India except death and destruction.

Should I have to learn from History OR depend on a Tarrot prediction that a stable Pakistan will be in better interest to India rather than a unstable Pakistan. Could somebody educate me please.

Can some Indians educate me on how a unstable Pakistan will do more damage to India than a stable Pakistan.

While I agree on what Shekhar Gupta feels, I feel that stable or unstable - the degree of difficulty India has experienced has been pretty much the same.

In fact, a stable period in Pk has led to greater probs. Ayub ruled for almost a Decade during which he sent in troops into J&K ( Op Gibraltar), Zia gave stability , the fallout in this case was bad for India but worse for Pk. The list goes on.

An unstable Pk too is equally disconcerting.

Notwithstanding the above, death & destruction in Pk must cease. Innocents should not have to pay in blood for the mishandlings of their leaders.

 

[RiazHaq]

Here is an excerpt from an interesting NPR radio report about Indians' obsession with Pakistan:

Many analysts believe India's biggest foreign policy challenge these days is its rivalry with China.

But changing attitudes about Pakistan isn't going to be easy. The subject dominates India's news media, which often makes no attempt to disguise its bias. A recent television newscast used the phrase "most preposterous" to describe a position espoused by Pakistan's interior minister.

"It's hysterical. It's absolutely, totally unprofessional," says Seema Mustafa, editor of India's Covert magazine. "I think the television channels have actually forgotten they are journalists, and they've become advocates for war."

She says the relationship between India and Pakistan is a paradox. "At the individual level, it turns into a whole level of camaraderie. And at the political level, it is akin to hate," Mustafa says.

Indians who take a hard-line stance on Pakistan sometimes display a strangely contradictory view of that country, Mustafa says.

"People who have been sort of going hammer and tongs about nuking Pakistan — of taking your army across and finishing that country — are people I have seen visit Islamabad and be even friendlier with the Pakistanis. And the families all start visiting each other, big gifts are taken. Then after that, they come back and say the same thing," Mustafa says.

Haq's Musings: India's Sane Voice Warns Against Smugness

In Flourishing India, An Old Obsession With Pakistan : NPR

 

[Solomon2]

The good thing is that there is an Indian out there discussing these matters openly. The next step should be for Indians to realize that their neighbors may need Indian assistance to combat the current scourge, and to consider what form such assistance should take.