SAC's J-XX?

[Birbal]

Not entirely true. Some (most) IR seeker heads are unable to get a sustained lock on the F-22.

Source for "most"? I know the F-22 uses some IR reduction measures, but from what I've read on its IR signature, all-aspect missiles should be able to lock on to it.

 

[Birbal]

Your assumption is on the basis that the OLS will spot an F-22 at its extreme range.. again assuming BEST case scenario's... that too if the raptor approaches at an angle.. after burning. Such does not happen.. nor will happen.
The OLS will at best pick the F-22 up after the AMRAAM's are already in the air.

If the F-18SH's APG-79 has trouble picking up the F-22 at anything less than 15km.. and that too without a lock.
I doubt the IRBIS-E can do even half better than that.

I quoted the head on detection range of the OLS. Obviously, that's going to be somewhat degraded in real world performance. But a minimum detection range of 35 km should be reasonable.

The Irbis-E is significantly larger than the APG-79, which gives it higher transmitting power, higher gain due to better beam forming, and higher receiving area. Furthermore, you don't have to have a lock to fire an active homing missile. You just have to track it well enough to get your missile within active homing range (probably around 2km against the F-22).

 

[SQ8]

I quoted the head on detection range of the OLS. Obviously, that's going to be somewhat degraded in real world performance. But a minimum detection range of 35 km should be reasonable.

The Irbis-E is significantly larger than the APG-79, which gives it higher transmitting power, higher gain due to better beam forming, and higher receiving area. Furthermore, you don't have to have a lock to fire an active homing missile. You just have to track it well enough to get your missile within active homing range (probably around 2km against the F-22).

If you are able to get within 2km of an F-22... you are either in flames and going down.. or a friendly.
Recent test have shown that the seeker on the Aim-9M has trouble keeping track of an F-22.

 

[Birbal]

I've read some of your posts here....

Honestly, I think it's very unlikely that Su-35BM would win in such an engagement. Please do consider that the F-22 is designed not to be a lone wolf, it is designed to have some sort of AWACS support or a coupled with another fighter, be it another F-22.

And the Su-35s would also have AWACS support and in any case will have a 4-1 ratio against the F-22.

Now we've been using AIM-120C, Now take into account that F-22s have AIM-120D, and also take into account the advantages of firing away an AMRAAM during supercruise.... missile range is increased by a lot.

Your infrared signature is going to be massive if you are going supersonic.

and as for tracking the Su-35BM, it shouldn't really be a problem, some people are under the strange impression that it has a low RCS, it is very low for a Flanker sure, but it is a good size target for F-22's, also taking into account exposed weapons on the Flanker, it may just be able to dip below 4-5m2 if it's lucky.

I never said tracking the Su-35 is a problem because of its RCS. Its RCS is around that of an old F-16, and the F-22 radar should be able to track it at long ranges even under LPI mode. However, doppler beaming is still effective regardless of your RCS.

The F-22 will detect first and fire first. Now you've implied that evading AMRAAMs will be somewhat of a walk in the park.
It is likely that the F-22 can get the Su-35 within the AMRAAM's NEZ! and well... a NEZ is a NEZ. Due to ranges it can be fired at without giving away it's position, Su-35s will be busy trying to evade the AMRAAMs rather trying to engage the source which they can't see.

Doppler beaming is effective at any range, though you need several seconds to react and perform the maneuver. I agree that the Su-35s will be busy evading the AMRAAMs before locating the F-22. But that doesn't really help you does it?

Even if the F-22 is outnumbered by the Su-35BM, chances are F-22 will take them out.

That simply isn't true. Aircraft that are heavily outnumbered cannot win in WVR combat unless they have an extreme advantage in maneuverability - which the F-22 doesn't. It only has a small advantage.

Now in reality, F-22 wont be at all alone, you can expect at least 2 raptors up in the air, one painting the other gearing up to kill.
and in that scenario F-22(s) can ripple fire, since they are no longer limited to only 6 AMRAAM.

And then there will be 8 Su-35 in the air. And you can no longer ripple fire. The bottom line is that the Su-35s can hold their own against equivalent costing F-22s in air to air combat, but can also carry out air-to-surface missions, which the F-22 can't.

 

[Birbal]

If you are able to get within 2km of an F-22... you are either in flames and going down.. or a friendly.
Recent test have shown that the seeker on the Aim-9M has trouble keeping track of an F-22.

I said get your missile within 2km. By firing it and providing mid course updates...

And could you link to the test? I know F-15s and F-16s have trouble getting a Sidewinder lock on the F-22, but that's cause they don't have optical locator systems or helmet mounted cueing, so the radar has to tell the Sidewinders where to look, and the radar is too old to be able to help them.

 

[houshanghai]

And the Su-35s would also have AWACS support and in any case will have a 4-1 ratio against the F-22.



Your infrared signature is going to be massive if you are going supersonic.



I never said tracking the Su-35 is a problem because of its RCS. Its RCS is around that of an old F-16, and the F-22 radar should be able to track it at long ranges even under LPI mode. However, doppler beaming is still effective regardless of your RCS.



Doppler beaming is effective at any range, though you need several seconds to react and perform the maneuver. I agree that the Su-35s will be busy evading the AMRAAMs before locating the F-22. But that doesn't really help you does it?



That simply isn't true. Aircraft that are heavily outnumbered cannot win in WVR combat unless they have an extreme advantage in maneuverability - which the F-22 doesn't. It only has a small advantage.



And then there will be 8 Su-35 in the air. And you can no longer ripple fire. The bottom line is that the Su-35s can hold their own against equivalent costing F-22s in air to air combat, but can also carry out air-to-surface missions, which the F-22 can't.

this is not a su35 VS F22's thread and su35 is also very expensive like rafale.......

 

[Kompromat]

Any news of Testing ?

 

[S-A-B-E-R->]

Source for "most"? I know the F-22 uses some IR reduction measures, but from what I've read on its IR signature, all-aspect missiles should be able to lock on to it.

IR reduction paint that is but soon to be installed with Israli Ir stealth shild system

 

[SQ8]

I said get your missile within 2km. By firing it and providing mid course updates...

And could you link to the test? I know F-15s and F-16s have trouble getting a Sidewinder lock on the F-22, but that's cause they don't have optical locator systems or helmet mounted cueing, so the radar has to tell the Sidewinders where to look, and the radar is too old to be able to help them.

Its not the radar.. Its the infrared seeker itself that has trouble keeping a lock.

 

[amalakas]

I said get your missile within 2km. By firing it and providing mid course updates...

And could you link to the test? I know F-15s and F-16s have trouble getting a Sidewinder lock on the F-22, but that's cause they don't have optical locator systems or helmet mounted cueing, so the radar has to tell the Sidewinders where to look, and the radar is too old to be able to help them.

HAF F-16s have a helmet queuing system and IRIS-T missiles, The pilot could get a lock on the rear of the F-22, but the missile head could NOT !!

 

[gambit]

Source for "most"? I know the F-22 uses some IR reduction measures, but from what I've read on its IR signature, all-aspect missiles should be able to lock on to it.

You are making this up, buddy.

 

[gambit]

And the Su-35s would also have AWACS support and in any case will have a 4-1 ratio against the F-22.

Speculative at best.

Your infrared signature is going to be massive if you are going supersonic.

Not so 'massive'. Sheer hyperbole. Besides the engines, the only places where there would be the highest IR emissions at any speed would be the leading edges of anything facing directly into the airstream, such as inlet lips and flight control surfaces.

I never said tracking the Su-35 is a problem because of its RCS. Its RCS is around that of an old F-16, and the F-22 radar should be able to track it at long ranges even under LPI mode. However, doppler beaming is still effective regardless of your RCS.

Doppler beaming is effective at any range,...

Not as much as you hope. See here => http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...-raptor-detailed-analasis-25.html#post1926961

 

[hello68]

This thread has wandered far from the original post. Everyone, please stick to the topic at hand. Any news on the test date.

 

[rcrmj]

This thread has wandered far from the original post. Everyone, please stick to the topic at hand. Any news on the test date.

still no news,,,lots poeple speculate that it will fly yesterday, but it didnt...so i guess either they had no one knows because the tight security, or been delayed for reasons.

few days ago i visited few chinese defense forums trying to get any info about this plane, people are saying SAC put very strict security around it, as the CAC's J-20's flights are too public

 

[Mani2020]

I came to know that this model was designed by a Chinese student and was displayed in an exhibition conducted in Shanghai