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SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

Does the maker of the WS-10 engines share technology with the maker of the WS-19 engine, if they aren’t the same company?

All engine makers in China belong to AECC. New technologies for WS-15 are actually confirmed on the WS-10 and WS-13 and the production process on WS-10 and WS-13 production lines.
 
All engine makers in China belong to AECC. New technologies for WS-15 are actually confirmed on the WS-10 and WS-13 and the production process on WS-10 and WS-13 production lines.
So it’s possible the WS-19, destined for the J-35, will be developed further, and higher thrust numbers will be achieved.

If the WS-10 is currently around 145 kn and the WS-13/19 is around 100-110, then when the WS-15 is achieved around 180 kn, the thrust of the WS-19’s new model may reach between 124-135 kn. A power output comparable to the F110, but smaller, making the J-35 in comparable position as the T-FX.
 
I will only respond to the last paragraph of your post. When the PAF/PN/PA are acquiring drones from multiple sources and fulfilling their requirements Azm appears to just be another institution where people gain fat arses from sitting in plush offices and doing nothing. In the long run PAF will be forced to look inwards but currently nothing of value has been produced due to multiple factors ( foreign items make money for generals, lack of investmemt into infrastructure, and lack of basic infrastructure being one of the many reasons). I dont know whether we have put the cart before the horse here or what! However I will be absolutely thrilled and proud when we start producing post graduate students to supply to the rest of the world like all other institutes in Pakistan. We lose people as we cannot pay them what other companies will pay, there is no career progression and no will to reward genius or individual efforts. Even if something is produced incorporation in the industry becomes problematic. We need to progress far but both the means and the will seems to be lacking at the moment.
A

I agree with a lot of stuff you said. I disagree with the part about "generals making money", can some do? Yes, it's like everything else in the world. It would be the same case if two companies produced JFT and J-10C locally, someone will get commissions. This here identifies the LARGEST issue we face in Pakistan. Corruption is "hidden" and done a lot. We need to mature up, there is NO society on planet with 0 corruption. So make a % of it legit, the French and Indians have it at 10%, the US calls it "lobby", etc, etc. The world simply works like this. Whichever politician sells the "chorun" of "corruption free society", is dumb as hell or making people total fools and lying to them far off reality. So if 80/90% is spent on the country and 10% is legally taken as "commission", I am PERSONALLY fine by it, why? Because otherwise 80/90% doesn't go to public right now, it's looted and ALL politicians are involved. Now there are new tactics, you stop supporting them due to their MASSIVE corruption including corruption inside institutions, they try to run over you and want you their police force!

Now, with respect to internal manufacturing and experts, we can't produce PHD's, we don't have the institutions built at that level of expertise. So like India, what we do need first is the Horse, not the cart. We use the same engineers who graduate in thousands with good profiles and train them on strategic weapon's technology (JFT / J-10C being an example). Indians went to US/ Canada / UK around 1995 in numbers, studied and worked there and it was only from 2015 onwards you started to hear "design houses" forming in India whether through DRDO or other Tech institutes, until 2010 or so, they worked overseas and learned and established institutions. That's a 30 year journey.

This links to the SAME theme I've been singing, SOMEONE needs to start thinking long term for Pakistan! We have the JFT manufacturing in house and Mirage rebuild factory, the senior most talent exists, we need to go into an overdrive and expand these center of excellence quickly, supplement by our labor force towards J-10C, Drones, may be a BVR weapon, and whatever else becomes "strategic enough". A part of this labor then needs to be sent for PHD's and bring back to expand the local knowledge base. 15 years from now, we'll be where you want to be at, but in that timeframe, we'd have established independence in producing critical components or majority of strategic assets with a much lower cost, with institutions or center of excellence and support current acquisitions for next 30 years.

This right here needs to be a national strategy on everything. Right now being one of the poorest countries we import everything, from food, grocery items, to oil, gas, machinery, defense equipment! And the entire nation LOVES foreign brands and has no sense of Nationalism!
 
I have read the response of some of our Chinese brothers and also the suggestion of the venerable @SQ8. I agree with him that the Chinese requirement has changed as they have gotten their hands on the SU series and built them up along with developing it. However, international and Pakistani print media has repeatedly stated the position I have alluded to. The Chinese ASR changing is only too natural given its geographical conditions. However it has relied heavily on single engined fighters (for the lack of suitable twin engined ones). As soon as tbis happened it has changed its requirements and I fully support this.
Posters have given the example of the pgs. But again PAF bought the Ps first and then asked for changes. With the J10s PAF has suggested changes in 2007 and then bought the platform in the 20s when it had matured. PAF will not buy a non matured idea from the Chinese due to potential cost sinks. The same will possibly be the case with the Turks now having learnt from the T129 fiasco.
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No that's not true. The changes made to the J-10 were not "suggested by the PAF", that's simply an urban myth perpetuated on forums. The fact that the PAF didn't get its hands on the J-10 earlier was not because the "PAF improved" it, but because the Chinese never allowed its export until it had developed the export oriented J-10CE version. The JF-17 was a joint development export specific project, so the PAF had more say in its improvements, but the J-10 was and is a purely Chinese specific project, and only became available for export with a specific model the Chinese developed.

As Chinese members have previously stated, the J-31/35 has been flying for a decade, has already gone through a number of iterations, and will likely have multiple engine options. Even though it has not been ordered by the PLAF/PLAN, there has been significant development already. In contrast, the TFX hasn't even flown yet, and the engine issue is a major risk.
 
No that's not true. The changes made to the J-10 were not "suggested by the PAF", that's simply an urban myth perpetuated on forums. The fact that the PAF didn't get its hands on the J-10 earlier was not because the "PAF improved" it, but because the Chinese never allowed its export until it had developed the export oriented J-10CE version. The JF-17 was a joint development export specific project, so the PAF had more say in its improvements, but the J-10 was and is a purely Chinese specific project, and only became available for export with a specific model the Chinese developed.

As Chinese members have previously stated, the J-31/35 has been flying for a decade, has already gone through a number of iterations, and will likely have multiple engine options. Even though it has not been ordered by the PLAF/PLAN, there has been significant development already. In contrast, the TFX hasn't even flown yet, and the engine issue is a major risk.

The J-35 is the variant ordered by the PLA Navy. The FC-31 program has official PLA support now.

True there is no clear signal from the PLAAF. But mainly that is because the Chinese Air Force is centered around a heavyweight class of engine mainly the WS-10 and the upcoming WS-15 with the J-20 gearing up to be produced in massive numbers. Waiting on the PLAAF to commit first is not really a rational reason.

Besides the PLANAF ordering the J-35, the aircraft had been offered to Saudi Arabia and other countries in the Middle East. Unless you have access to the F-35 this is the most realistic option for a fifth gen that countries and buy and fly in the near future. Everything else, including the TFX and KFX, are far less along in development and are susceptible to Western sanctions on their engines.
 
The J-35 is the variant ordered by the PLA Navy. The FC-31 program has official PLA support now.

True there is no clear signal from the PLAAF. But mainly that is because the Chinese Air Force is centered around a heavyweight class of engine mainly the WS-10 and the upcoming WS-15 with the J-20 gearing up to be produced in massive numbers. Waiting on the PLAAF to commit first is not really a rational reason.

Besides the PLANAF ordering the J-35, the aircraft had been offered to Saudi Arabia and other countries in the Middle East. Unless you have access to the F-35 this is the most realistic option for a fifth gen that countries and buy and fly in the near future. Everything else, including the TFX and KFX, are far less along in development and are susceptible to Western sanctions on their engines.

Has the J-35 order been officially confirmed? When are deliveries due?
 
Has the J-35 order been officially confirmed? When are deliveries due?

The J-35 variant is being built - maybe PLAN is "sponsoring" it to see what SAC can come up with - but that is not the same as saying that the PLAN has "ordered" it ? If the J-35 is "successful" then that may be the entry criteria for actual "orders" ?

The procurement system for the PLAN is not quite fully transparent - but most large organisations/institutions would want to see their "requirements met" and "verified" before orders are placed.

Lets see if any of the current J-35 programme gets translated into "actual orders". Would be interesting if it did. It is not like Lockheed Martin, or Boeing where orders are "puiblically" announced - the Chinese procurement system is a bit more opaque - so clarity is difficult to see. Of course - all the Chinese members will iterate "with absolute certainty" that it has been ordered. Empirical evidence is somewhat difficult to prove that (though that does not mean it has "not" been ordered ;) )...
 
No that's not true. The changes made to the J-10 were not "suggested by the PAF", that's simply an urban myth perpetuated on forums. The fact that the PAF didn't get its hands on the J-10 earlier was not because the "PAF improved" it, but because the Chinese never allowed its export until it had developed the export oriented J-10CE version. The JF-17 was a joint development export specific project, so the PAF had more say in its improvements, but the J-10 was and is a purely Chinese specific project, and only became available for export with a specific model the Chinese developed.

As Chinese members have previously stated, the J-31/35 has been flying for a decade, has already gone through a number of iterations, and will likely have multiple engine options. Even though it has not been ordered by the PLAF/PLAN, there has been significant development already. In contrast, the TFX hasn't even flown yet, and the engine issue is a major risk.
Not to derail this thread do you have any links which summarise the differences between J10s flown by PLAAF and the export CE version. Just curious to know.
 
Land based J35
A05FEA80-C8FC-4C9C-AECB-08B0E95F4F44.jpeg
FE413F42-4805-41E1-9039-71D622F96248.jpeg
 
No, not land-based (variant) … you can clearly see the catapult-launch bar
It’s said to be land based variant in Chinese media. The major difference is that this variant doesn’t come with folding wing and the internal structure is not so strong as carrier based version.
 
It’s said to be land based variant in Chinese media. The major difference is that this variant doesn’t come with folding wing and the internal structure is not so strong as carrier based version.


Actually I‘m pretty sure NO CHinese media says that … again look at the catapult bar and from all i got via various Weibo posts is, it is the same naval 350003 but earlier images only posted today.
 
No that's not true. The changes made to the J-10 were not "suggested by the PAF", that's simply an urban myth perpetuated on forums. The fact that the PAF didn't get its hands on the J-10 earlier was not because the "PAF improved" it, but because the Chinese never allowed its export until it had developed the export oriented J-10CE version. The JF-17 was a joint development export specific project, so the PAF had more say in its improvements, but the J-10 was and is a purely Chinese specific project, and only became available for export with a specific model the Chinese developed.

As Chinese members have previously stated, the J-31/35 has been flying for a decade, has already gone through a number of iterations, and will likely have multiple engine options. Even though it has not been ordered by the PLAF/PLAN, there has been significant development already. In contrast, the TFX hasn't even flown yet, and the engine issue is a major risk.
Not an Urban myth - go read PAFs own history published back in 2008 by Alan Warnes where the J-10A is shown as the FC-20A and was available to purchase - unless you consider the PAF liars versus your own words.
 
No that's not true. The changes made to the J-10 were not "suggested by the PAF", that's simply an urban myth perpetuated on forums. The fact that the PAF didn't get its hands on the J-10 earlier was not because the "PAF improved" it, but because the Chinese never allowed its export until it had developed the export oriented J-10CE version. The JF-17 was a joint development export specific project, so the PAF had more say in its improvements, but the J-10 was and is a purely Chinese specific project, and only became available for export with a specific model the Chinese developed.
Hi,

And yeah Gen Musharraf lied in his TV interviews about the J-10's---.

& you are speaking the 'truth'.
 

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