SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[592257001]

INS Vikramaditya sails with its battle group typically 2D 2F 2C 1-2 SSK spread across 1000s of square kilometers, on board radar on most of these ships can track fighter size targets 100s of kilometers,
with Mig-29ks on patrol, a fighter size object will be spotted by front destroyers much beyond the range of any anti ship missiles, so the time destroyers spot with her MF Star radars Barak2 will be locked on to target and Mig 29s will be redirected to that area.
And I am pretty sure Indian Navy will be flying F-35 or naval AMCA's when pakistanis will get thr hands on FC-31.

Really now?

"A 2011 article in the United States Naval War College Review credited the "YJ-91/YJ-12" with a range of 400 km and a 205 kg high explosive warhead, compared to the 130 km (81 mi; 70 nmi) range of a Harpoon anti-ship missile. Furthermore, an aircraft could launch the "YJ-91/YJ-12" while still 230 km beyond the range of SM-2 and Sparrow anti-air missiles, which have ranges of less than 170 km."

"At the 9th Zhuhai Airshow held in November 2012, another series of gliding bomb developed from LS PGB was revealed to the public. Designated as CM-506 kg, it weighs 150 kg and has a maximum range of 130 km. Guidance is inertial navigation and satellite guidance, but other forms of guidance can be adopted, such as TV, IR, mm wave radar, and SAL"

I would like to know in which parallel universe could a Mig-29, or ANY ship-borne/air-borne radar able to detect a FC-31 even with some external payload @ 400km of range.
The BEST ship-borne/air-borne radar in India's arsenal is the MF Star as you pointed out, with its MAXIMUM RANGE against high altitude fighter size aircraft (NOT STEALTH FIGHTER) to be 250km. Furthermore, the maximum range of your Barak is only 70km. FC-31 doesn't even require ASMs, even small-diamter guided bombs such as the CM-506 is enough to strike well outside of IN's ship-borne anti-air defenses.

And, yes, I do believe in the however distant future, US might eventually authorize the sale of F-35s to Indian and/or the naval AMCA will evolve beyond fan arts. But engagements between fifth gen stealth fighters are meant to be largely WVR, as radars from neither planes will be able to detect the other from hundreds of KM away.

 

[592257001]

INS Vikramaditya sails with her CBG with air defense destroyers/frigates or multi role corvettes all these other ships will most likely be spread 100s of kilometers ahead of any potential attack from enemy so an integrated network of radars will be formed which will be covering 1000s of square kilometers of area including airborne chopper based or even AWACS in play there is no way any enemy air assets will be allowed to go near any of these big ships during war.
Any aircraft will big Anti ship missiles will be detected much beyond any anti ship missile range and I am not sure how the AC will be tracked or locked by FC-31 more than 500 kms away, most likely a Kolkatta type destroyer will be able to pick a FC-31 armed with these anti ship missiles and locked on easily and a Kolkatta type destroyer can easily handle whatever anti ship missles chinese or pakistanis have with Barak-2 or may be upgraded versions that time

Hmm, I know I'm not supposed to feed the trolls, but I can't help but be amused by your blatant show of blind confidence. This is not a thread for pathetic ego-boosting Indians to talk about how LCA Tejas can win out a match against J-20 (which I'm sure is the case in your delusions of grandeur), but was rather a discussion about how stealth aircraft such as the FC-31 will still have an edge over conventional non-stealth jets such as the JF-17 in conducting strike missions with external payload. If there's no benefits at all in using stealth aircrafts in such missions, there would be no need for F-35 to be tested in such environments.
Lockheed Martin to test signature impact of F-35 external weapons carriage | IHS Jane's 360

 

[Paksanity]

Hmm, I know I'm not supposed to feed the trolls, but I can't help but be amused by your blatant show of blind confidence. This is not a thread for pathetic ego-boosting Indians to talk about how LCA Tejas can win out a match against J-20 (which I'm sure is the case in your delusions of grandeur), but was rather a discussion about how stealth aircraft such as the FC-31 will still have an edge over conventional non-stealth jets such as the JF-17 in conducting strike missions with external payload. If there's no benefits at all in using stealth aircrafts in such missions, there would be no need for F-35 to be tested in such environments.
Lockheed Martin to test signature impact of F-35 external weapons carriage | IHS Jane's 360

Quick question. Does PLAAF or PLAN intend to induct Fc-31 along with J-20 or it is slated exclusively for exports?

 

[592257001]

Quick question. Does PLAAF or PLAN intend to induct Fc-31 along with J-20 or it is slated exclusively for exports?

To answer that, I would like to point out some necessary information regarding the official choice of PLAAF first:

"The J-XX program was started in the late 1990s. A proposal from Chengdu Aerospace Corporation, designated Project 718, won the PLAAF endorsement following a 2008 competition against a Shenyang proposal that was larger than the J-20.[9]"

Because CAC's design proposal at the time was more aligned with PLAAF's requirement, J-20 has had the full backing of PLAAF in terms of funding and technical personals ever since. That's why J-20 has already began low rate initial production (LRIP) for service with PLAAF starting with serial # 2101 yet FC-31 does not yet have a "J" series branding (It has NEVER been called J-21/J-31 in any official publication, unlike the J-20) and is quite behind in terms of progress.

That being said, PLAN has not finalized its decision on the stealth carrier-borne multi-role fighter yet, and tensions are high between CAC and SAC in the bid towards that competition.

In the end, if PAF decides to purchase FC-31, many "ready-off-the-shelf" sub-systems from J-20 will be made available for fitting onto the FC-31 if the PAF so desires (avionics, weapons, EW suites, etc) , AVIC will make sure the petty disagreements between CAC and SAC does not come between an important deal between China and Pakistan.

 

[592257001]

well I was just correcting you when you were pointing rather boasting FC-31 armed with anti ship missiles can take a CBG on its own I never wrote about LCA or J - 20, FC-31 will lose its stealth advantage the day it carries external weapons specially couple of anti ship missiles, it will glow on radars of outer ring of CBG's destroyers much sooner than it even spots an aircraft career which will be somewhere in the middle of CBG protected by complement of ships and fighters and awacs.

My points stand, Indian's carrier, especially Indian's CVBG is MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger of a target in terms of RCS compared to a stealth aircraft+2 external ASMs. You would need to rework your elementary math skill if you sincerely believe a non-stealth aircraft+2 external ASMs will pose the same RCS.

Now, take the BEST AWAC that the IAF+IN has and think with a clear head, where would the FC-31+2 external ASMs fit in this diagram? How far away and just how many AWAC or the equivalent air-defense destroyers would be needed to from a tight enough radar perimeter so that a target with a RCS of FC-31 will not be able to intrude undetected @ the ASM launch distance of 300 km? IN doesn't even have enough AWAC/air-defense destroyers to perform that role in rotation, not even considering the number of fighters that would be needed to protect those assets.

Given the known capability of Chinese maritime surveillance satellites, which is enough to provide real-time mid-course guidance for DF-21D/DF-26 ASBM, why wouldn't the FC-31 be able to know where the Indian's carrier is located?

I also pointed out earlier that externally carried ASMs are just ONE of MANY options FC-31 has in taking on a carrier, it could easily carry small-diameter guided bombs with terminal IR/mm wave radar in its internal weapons bay and launch ~150km away from the carrier, reducing its frontal RCS even more.

If the PAF does purchase the FC-31, just the fact that IAF/IN will be aware of those capabilities that the FC-31 has is enough of a deterrence to STOP them from sending its carrier to strike @ Pakistan, thus maintaining peace.

 

[592257001]

again now your ego and arrogance is blinding you.

First correction Indian doesnt use A-50 India use Israeli Phalcon radars on its AWACS,

second thing every single destroyer/frigate of Indian navy is multi role which can play both Air Defense or act as sub hunters plus attack enemy ships and land.

FC-31 with two ASM missiles will be easily picked up by any destroyers in front of Career battle groups how hard is it to explain this to you???
Its not stealthy when its carrying two big *** anti ship missiles and with its radar on to lock on to any ships it will give away its position in both cases it will be engaged by a destroyer in front or Indian naval fighters will be sent to engage it.

Here for your info. this I am quoting from internet:

"The navy's new carrier battle group centered on Vikramaditya consists of the modern Kolkata class destroyers, Shivalik and Talwar-class frigates, Kamorta-class anti-submarine warfare corvettes and new tankers.[9][10][11] INS Chakra II is expected to fill the sub-surface component."

all of these ships will be equipped with advance radars which can pick anything from a drone to super sonic cruise missiles. Fc-31 will be killed much before it can even penetrate the outer ring of CBG.

I am not sure in which area you are imagining this battle will take place but location of Indian peninsula provides Indian navy edge on all adversaries, any air force assets can be called for support in a moments notice.

Your ignorance continous to amuses me, I've already asked to to "think with a clear head", guess you are not capable of doing that.

Heck, let's even pretend that FC-31's RCS with 2 external ASMs is the same RCS as the non-stealth MQ-9 on that graph there. Now, draw a circle with its center as the carrier, with smaller circles representing the A-50 being 220km away from the carrier, each with a effective detection range of 80km against something that's similar to the MQ-9 in RCS. Only then would they be able to detect the FC-31 AT THE MOMENT that it launches the ASMs. Tell me just how many of small circles are needed? Is your pathetic number of escort ships remotely close to enough to provide coverage?

I forgot how in your head, all radar systems designed for Indian is automatically quadrupled in its effectiveness compare to their counterparts used else where. Your "A-50I" is so powerful that nothing from that graph I attached applies to it

Lastly, why the f*ck would there ever be a "lock" performed by the FC-31 against the carrier? Inertial guidance+mid-course correction from data-link with Yaogan series maritime surveillance Satellite+terminal IR guidance is all that is required. You just displayed a military knowledge and intelligence of 12 year old with that comment of your yours

 

[592257001]

Actually you are pretty illogical here for the first few lines even pakistanis will not agree rest when I say sea hugging super sonic missile and a big *** plane carrying two ASM attach to its belly will deflect all the radar waves easily so all the stealth advantage is gone a 3 m square target will be painted beyond 200 kilometers away on MF star and on air borne radars. A single kolkatta type will employ anywhere between 30-40 barak 2 anti ship missile so even if 10 ASM missiles are thrown at kolkatta type its system will still not be saturated and it can take all of them at once now think 3 of these will be in a single CBG and with almost same capability 3 frigates and INS Vikramaditya is also equipped with same.
There is no way fc-31 in any situation can take out IN CBG,

I love how your imagined number of escort ships keeps on increasing yet the number of FC-31 remains to be one, logic at its finest.

200km? You really loves throwing around random numbers huh? You just said "I am pretty sure it can find a FC-31 carrying two ASMs around 100 kms away." You can't back sh*t with these " I'm pretty sure" numbers, with a clear disregard of the RCS vs. radar detection range graph above.

Heck, 200km, 100km, or 80km, really doesn't change any thing LOL, because FC-31 would have launched its ASMs well outside of those distances Are you naturally ret*arded or are you trying to be funny? Kolkata can carry 40 barak 2? Last time I checked it's only got 32 VLS for baraks, where do you expect it to fit the extra 8? Inside your lungi?

Also, just how well do you think the Barak-8, with a maximum speed of Mach2, designed only for supersonic and slower targets will fair against the CM-400AGK which reaches hypersonic (Mach 5+) speeds?

 

[帅的一匹]

F31 2.0 type is a monster, we shall wait and see. Think Pakistan shall fund the project if money is available to accelerate its development. If pla navy wanna induct F31, then money will be no problem. I think J16 and F31 will be a powerful combination for PAF to deal with Indian CBG. j16 can take out those carriers and F31 provide air cover to counter those Mig29 and Navy Tejas. When f31 just carrys only air superiority configuration, Mig29 is doomed. How can a non stealthy fighter filed against a stealthy fighter in the sky? Especially when Indian navy Mig29 sucks in the EW system.

To be honest, India is no more potent to be China's real enemy, the tech gap is widening day by day. They even don't have proper ASM on their MKI.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

It is hoped that Pakistan would take a serious interest in v2.0 of the plane which is scheduled for unveiling in 2015.

Sir its 2016 now did you have any info or pic of v 2.0???

 

[ghauri05]

Size matters:
With J-20
View attachment 112204
With J-16
View attachment 112205

It is also about the same size as the F-35, although with twin engines, while the f-35 is sigle engined.
Is it an advantage?
View attachment 112206

As compared to other stealth fighters j31 is comparatively small, so won't we stuck in the same dilemma of a medium range aircraft..than as a long range and heavy aircraft...just like we don't have any heavy now...???

 

[The Eagle]

Hope to hear about some progress..... anyone plz? Heard about FC-31 V 2.0 but no pics shared so far yet....

 

[Cool Mind]

whoa....!!!

 

[Akasa]

F31 2.0 type is a monster, we shall wait and see. Think Pakistan shall fund the project if money is available to accelerate its development. If pla navy wanna induct F31, then money will be no problem. I think J16 and F31 will be a powerful combination for PAF to deal with Indian CBG. j16 can take out those carriers and F31 provide air cover to counter those Mig29 and Navy Tejas. When f31 just carrys only air superiority configuration, Mig29 is doomed. How can a non stealthy fighter filed against a stealthy fighter in the sky? Especially when Indian navy Mig29 sucks in the EW system.

To be honest, India is no more potent to be China's real enemy, the tech gap is widening day by day. They even don't have proper ASM on their MKI.

The J-16, or any Flanker derivative, will not be exported.

And, to play the devil's advocate, how can you authoritatively make claims with regards to the MiG-29's EW system when you don't even have access to its performance data?

 

[Viper0011.]

The J-16, or any Flanker derivative, will not be exported.

On the cards for Pakistan is the FC-20 (B or the C, most upgraded version), J-11B/D and later, FC-31 (version 2.0). The J-16 won't be exported as it will be a mimicked copy of the SU-35 (the ones coming to China from Russia soon) and the Russian would be pissed off if their tech got out, like what happened with the J-11. It took them a decade to get over it

 

[Akasa]

On the cards for Pakistan is the FC-20 (B or the C, most upgraded version), J-11B/D and later, FC-31 (version 2.0). The J-16 won't be exported as it will be a mimicked copy of the SU-35 (the ones coming to China from Russia soon) and the Russian would be pissed off if their tech got out, like what happened with the J-11. It took them a decade to get over it

1. As iterated before, Flanker variants will not be exported. The J-11B & J-11D fall into this category.

2. The J-16 has nothing to do with the Su-35. It marries a J-11BS airframe with modernized avionics, weapons, and ECM/EW equipment.

3. I would be rather skeptical as to assume that the Chinese would want to "copy" anything present in the Su-35. Evaluations and compare notes? Definitely. But to make the effort to reverse engineer subsystems that the Chinese will most likely find redundant? Dubious at best. The Russians probably have anticipated this and hence went ahead with the deal (ironically, it was the Russians who fervently pushed for the export of Su-35 to the Chinese).