SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[Ray_of_Hope]

That's what they call SEAD(Supression Of Enemy Air Defences) and DEAD(Destruction Of Enemy Air Defences) 'DEED' Using ECMs and Missiles. I like the USAF's motto for this mission: YGBSM(You Gotta Be S**ting Me)

I think he was asking about ``defusing`` a SAM after its launch

 

[gambit]

This is what i am confused about. Since using a normal ranging method like Radar or Sonar, you emit a wave and wait for the echo/reflection to come back. You know the speed of the wave, you know the time it took b/w echos, so you can calculate the distance fairly easily. However, in case of IR/UV detection, you are not emitting anything, merely receiving it the photons emitted in that spectrum.....so how is the distance measured?

With infrared detection, distance is NEVER measured.

In order to truly measure something, you need absolute control of the medium and method of measurement, which includes units of measurement, such as kilogram or centimeter or hectare. You actually take the ruler and apply it against the object to be measured.

With radar detection, you control the measurement medium -- EM wavelengths that are outside of the visible and infrared spectrum. You control the method -- a specifically designed transmitter. And you control the timing of events -- when to transmit and if you want to receive the reflections.

With infrared detection, you control only if you want to receive any infrared radiation -- or not.

The more in control of factors in an environment, the more aware are you of that environment, which includes how long some things happens, to what degree, in which direction, etc. This is why radar detection is still the preferred and premier method of detection for objects that are beyond physical reach.

As far as distance in infrared detection goes, because you are NOT in control of the detection medium -- EM wavelengths that are in the infrared region -- you do not know the medium's characteristics common in radar such as pulse repetition and duration, you cannot adequately compensate for real time variations of the medium, and because you cannot compensate for variations, you have no choice but to use whatever medium characteristics you can get and work from there.

In infrared detection, the best and always coarse medium characteristic is irradiance.

- the flux of radiant energy per unit area (normal to the direction of flow of radiant energy through a medium).

If there is an increase in irradiance over time, then you can guess, with reasonable certainty, that you are approaching the target, or you are the target and the object is approaching you. The key here is time. The finer the granularity of time measurement, such as millisecond or better picosecond, the better your guess as to how far/near is the target from you. But ultimately, it is still a guess, albeit a calculated one.

Application of this ? Your TV remote control...For example...

http://inside.mines.edu/~whoff/courses/EENG383/reference/appnote2.pdf

The maximum possible transmission distance of an IR remote control system depends on various parameters, but is mainly conditional on the radiant intensity of the emitter (Ie) and the sensitivity of the receiver.

Irradiance levels are used by the receiver to cut off responses, meaning that if you hold the TV remote control at a certain distance from the TV, the infrared receiver inside the TV will not respond to any embedded commands. This is to prevent the TV from responding to stray infrared that maybe in the area.

If the radiant intensity of the body increases and you are keeping time with zero as the moment of detection, you can be reasonably certain that the body is approaching you. Conversely, if the irradiance of an object is at a certain level, you can guess its distance from you based upon a preset table.

Again...Infrared distance is never measured, only derived or inferred.

 

[IrbiS]

I think he was asking about ``defusing`` a SAM after its launch

Well, I took the 'neutralizing' part

 

[AFlover]

Well, I took the 'neutralizing' part

War khan/Umair khan sahib
Thanks for details, I meant pre and post launch of SAM systems, how easy is it to trace the Sam batteries for an enemy aircraft or missile to make a loop hole in air defense?
Wen we compare India pak what r the qualitative and quantitative difference between both?

 

[Viper0011.]

War khan/Umair khan sahib
Thanks for details, I meant pre and post launch of SAM systems, how easy is it to trace the Sam batteries for an enemy aircraft or missile to make a loop hole in air defense?
Wen we compare India pak what r the qualitative and quantitative difference between both?

You can track SAM systems from 60 or more miles away if you have the tech. You don't have to wait for the pre or post launch. Air defense loop holes can also be found through SigInt, but there are tiers of SAM coverage so you can't always be sure that the farthest signal frequency that you are detecting a loop hole on, is actually true as there will be shorter range radars as you get closer to enemy's airspace. However, Stealth tech eliminates that issue and a jet like the F-117 or more advanced F-22, can literally go inside any dense EM environment and do whatever it needs to.

India is a much bigger country with more money. So they have a lot of advanced and diverse radar systems and now they are developing a few internally, including SAMS. But India is also 7 times larger than Pakistan, so her area is much huge that requires coverage. Pakistan is way behind in internal SAM development, something which should be given a much higher priority.

Pakistan had a pretty decent radar system, all integrated even in the 90's if I remember correctly, all around the borders with India. But Pakistan never made Afghanistan and the Chinese side a priority for radar coverage so in those mountainous areas, the coverage used to be spotty even during the Afghan war.

 

[AFlover]

You can track SAM systems from 60 or more miles away if you have the tech. You don't have to wait for the pre or post launch. Air defense loop holes can also be found through SigInt, but there are tiers of SAM coverage so you can't always be sure that the farthest signal frequency that you are detecting a loop hole on, is actually true as there will be shorter range radars as you get closer to enemy's airspace. However, Stealth tech eliminates that issue and a jet like the F-117 or more advanced F-22, can literally go inside any dense EM environment and do whatever it needs to.

India is a much bigger country with more money. So they have a lot of advanced and diverse radar systems and now they are developing a few internally, including SAMS. But India is also 7 times larger than Pakistan, so her area is much huge that requires coverage. Pakistan is way behind in internal SAM development, something which should be given a much higher priority.

Pakistan had a pretty decent radar system, all integrated even in the 90's if I remember correctly, all around the borders with India. But Pakistan never made Afghanistan and the Chinese side a priority for radar coverage so in those mountainous areas, the coverage used to be spotty even during the Afghan war.

Thanks for details I read that India has S400 which is very advanced and pak doesn't have any theing that good to counter their su30s and mirages

 

[Donatello]

With infrared detection, distance is NEVER measured.

In order to truly measure something, you need absolute control of the medium and method of measurement, which includes units of measurement, such as kilogram or centimeter or hectare. You actually take the ruler and apply it against the object to be measured.

With radar detection, you control the measurement medium -- EM wavelengths that are outside of the visible and infrared spectrum. You control the method -- a specifically designed transmitter. And you control the timing of events -- when to transmit and if you want to receive the reflections.

With infrared detection, you control only if you want to receive any infrared radiation -- or not.

View attachment 192788

The more in control of factors in an environment, the more aware are you of that environment, which includes how long some things happens, to what degree, in which direction, etc. This is why radar detection is still the preferred and premier method of detection for objects that are beyond physical reach.

As far as distance in infrared detection goes, because you are NOT in control of the detection medium -- EM wavelengths that are in the infrared region -- you do not know the medium's characteristics common in radar such as pulse repetition and duration, you cannot adequately compensate for real time variations of the medium, and because you cannot compensate for variations, you have no choice but to use whatever medium characteristics you can get and work from there.

In infrared detection, the best and always coarse medium characteristic is irradiance.

- the flux of radiant energy per unit area (normal to the direction of flow of radiant energy through a medium).

If there is an increase in irradiance over time, then you can guess, with reasonable certainty, that you are approaching the target, or you are the target and the object is approaching you. The key here is time. The finer the granularity of time measurement, such as millisecond or better picosecond, the better your guess as to how far/near is the target from you. But ultimately, it is still a guess, albeit a calculated one.

Application of this ? Your TV remote control...For example...

http://inside.mines.edu/~whoff/courses/EENG383/reference/appnote2.pdf

Irradiance levels are used by the receiver to cut off responses, meaning that if you hold the TV remote control at a certain distance from the TV, the infrared receiver inside the TV will not respond to any embedded commands. This is to prevent the TV from responding to stray infrared that maybe in the area.

If the radiant intensity of the body increases and you are keeping time with zero as the moment of detection, you can be reasonably certain that the body is approaching you. Conversely, if the irradiance of an object is at a certain level, you can guess its distance from you based upon a preset table.

Again...Infrared distance is never measured, only derived or inferred.

Well, okay, i understand that because with IR or UV detection, you are not really sending any EM radiation, so you cannot know accurately how far it is, since the typical speed/distance/time for echo/reflection calculations don't work....with 2 variable missing.....but then how good is the estimate? For example, the F-35 has a IRST suit for that purpose and the Rafale has the FSO.....the idea is to let the IR sensors on board guide the IIR missiles, just like the Radar would guide the active or semi-active radar guided missiles.....we want to use the IR in place of the Radar....so that the aircraft can remain silent....and secondly, in case of a stealth aircraft, Radar may not return anything, so you go for another detection mechanism, which would be IR.

 

[Coolboy]

What is your take?[/QUOTE]
Chinees call it 4th generation..... actually it is 5th generation...... F-16 A/B is 3rd generation according to chinees

 

[zhang5521]

Many Chinese military enthusiasts think, PAF up to now have no specific negotiation action, just have the air force officers have expressed interest, however, may not funded the purchase of PAF fc31, there are several reasons for this: the first is expensive, second is likely to buy F35, third is not an urgent need, India has a stealth fighter then will buy, fourth as J20 worse than some stealth aircraft, the performance of J31 may not be satisfactory...... Now I want to know, in Pakistan in the news, there is no new reports and news about fc31? Chinese here no PAF to buy the news......

 

[The SC]

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is in talks with China to buy 30 to 40 of the Shenyang FC-31 twin-engined stealth fighter displayed at Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai, a senior Pakistani government official has revealed to IHS Jane's .

"The discussions are beyond initial inquiries and they fit into the pattern of Pakistan being the first export customer of Chinese [military] hardware," said the official.

Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s' - IHS Jane's 360

 

[wiseone2]

Due to some wide spread information on many sites and in the specialized media about the possibility of Pakistan acquiring the 5th generation Chinese (/Pakistani?) stealth fighter jet, and the communality of their future engine the WS-13. I have decided to open this thread for serious discussions about the plane, its capabilities, the possibilities, and the probability of acquiring it by PAF, knowing that PAF has not been operating, or reluctant to operate twin engined warplanes.
My personal opinion is that the maintenance won't be a big hurdle since PAF will be maintaining only one type engine for both JF-17 and J-31.

An article in the People’s Daily at the end of last month did little to clarify matters. The article referred to the J-31 as a fourth-generation stealth fighter, while also saying that is comparable to the U.S.’ F-35 fighter jets. The report first said that it would be exported abroad as a competitor to the F-35, before discussing the possibility that it will be China’s next carrier-borne fighter.

““India won’t buy it. Russia won’t buy it,” Cliff noted, adding: “That pretty much leaves countries like Pakistan, Brazil, some Middle East countries, none of whom [the U.S. is] likely to sell the F-35 to anytime this decade or next.”

He also said that he did not believe Saudi Arabia was interested in the plane.

Pakistan is perhaps the most likely foreign purchaser of the fighter. Pakistan and China previously jointly developed the JF-17 Thunder advanced fighter, although only Islamabad has ended up purchasing the jet thus far. This week Pakistani officials called on China to increase cooperation in the area of defense production. Beijing has long helped Islamabad acquire the necessary knowledge and expertise to develop a more advanced domestic defense industry.

I believe it will be a mix of 4th generation stealth fighter and a fully 5th Generation stealth fighter, according to the pictures above.

What is your take?

China can barely make a 4th generation by Western standard fighter
Talking about fifth and sixth generation aircraft is little premature

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

China can barely make a 4th generation by Western standard fighter
Talking about fifth and sixth generation aircraft is little premature

JF-17,J-10,J-15,J-11Bs etc .... 4.5 gen fighters by any standards.

 

[wiseone2]

JF-17,J-10,J-15,J-11Bs etc .... 4.5 gen fighters by any standards.

People's Liberation Army Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
J-11 is a copy of Su-27/Su-30

What is a J-15 ??

JF-17 is so advanced that the PLAAF has not replaced their third generation J-8, J-7, JH-7 and Q-5 aircraft with it.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

People's Liberation Army Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
J-11 is a copy of Su-27/Su-30

Guess what even J-11 is a modified variant of SU that China built under license .. Than came more advanced. + carrier variants like J-11B,J-15,J-16

JF-17 is so advanced that the PLAAF has not replaced their third generation J-8, J-7, JH-7 and Q-5 aircraft with it.

Jf-17 has been a PAF baby (which also own 55+% share in the project).. It was created for PAF by PAF & Chinese. The SU-30 itself was inducted by russian much later in small numbers with its first user being india.
P.S: Chinese have J-10 which fits their needs.

 

[That Guy]

People's Liberation Army Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
J-11 is a copy of Su-27/Su-30

What is a J-15 ??

JF-17 is so advanced that the PLAAF has not replaced their third generation J-8, J-7, JH-7 and Q-5 aircraft with it.

Don't come here and troll. All of your points have been addressed in the past.

The J-15 is the carrier version of the J-11b, Shenyang J-15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can use google to do basic research.