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SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

Nothing is banned for Pakistan, when it comes to China.
To keep everything perspective - that statement isn't accurate, however, China does seem to bend the rules for Pakistan (when needed).

If Pakistan were to take interest in the J-20, China may budge - but financing it may be out of our reach.

So its pointless to get into the debate of what Pakistan can or can't get their hands on.

Plus, I am bit curious as to what the J-20 is sooooo off-limits to other nations? What (do) the Chinese have in the bird that's so secretive.
 
To keep everything perspective - that statement isn't accurate, however, China does seem to bend the rules for Pakistan (when needed).

If Pakistan were to take interest in the J-20, China may budge - but financing it may be out of our reach.

So its pointless to get into the debate of what Pakistan can or can't get their hands on.

Plus, I am bit curious as to what the J-20 is sooooo off-limits to other nations? What (do) the Chinese have in the bird that's so secretive.
Hi my friend it’s the same case like F22 which is even off limit for even from USA most trusted country on this earth Israel airforce though they can get anything from USA on any terms
Alas F22 is off limits now the Q here is why we want j20 from China one can imagine easily it’s their prime & sole innovation at the moment
PAF can get j20 in one case & that is if Pakistani government can convince Chinese to station their j20s with their own pilots rest assured paf can get j20 at their own once Chinese jump to 6 generation or something better then j20 for their self
Your input will be appreciated
Thank you
 
Hi my friend it’s the same case like F22 which is even off limit for even from USA most trusted country on this earth Israel airforce though they can get anything from USA on any terms
Alas F22 is off limits now the Q here is why we want j20 from China one can imagine easily it’s their prime & sole innovation at the moment
PAF can get j20 in one case & that is if Pakistani government can convince Chinese to station their j20s with their own pilots rest assured paf can get j20 at their own once Chinese jump to 6 generation or something better then j20 for their self
Your input will be appreciated
Thank you
Okay, so I do understand the comparison you made in the US/Israel & Pakistan/China relations - there is a difference when it comes to the F-22 (Raptor) & the J-20. (If) the United States were willing to sell the Raptor to Israel, that ship has sailed & though the Raptor may be the most advanced, capable and expensive jet out there. Its been out of production for nearly a decade. I don't Lockheed Martin jump starting that project with Congress against it. And people should also be aware that the US are not going to take a bullet for Israel either, infact could throw them under the bus for their own interests. The Israel F-16 sale to Croatia was a glimpse that picture ain't that perfect.

The J-20, on the other hand is something new and if there is something we've learned is that the Chinese will do probably anything to piss off the United States. Case in Point: Huawei 5G

I'm not certain if I got your point about PAF - J-20 - Chinese - Own Pilots.

Its either:
a) PAF requesting PLAAF J-20's to be stationed in Pakistan.
b) PAF paying/buying J-20's & have Chinese Pilots to operate them.

Option (A) would make sense (kind of), but what kind of Govt would opt for Option (B)?!!

Personally (& this is my opinion), but I just don't think that the J-20's can only be assessable after/if the Chinese were to come up with a better/next generation jet.

Finally, I would (again) like to come back to the point I raised in my last post. What's so special about the J-20, that the Chinese have put the label "Not for Export". One can/could understand US's stand for the F-22 (Raptor), but China's stand puzzles me...

Does the stealth coating have the DNA of a certain chopper they somehow got their hands on?
 
Okay, so I do understand the comparison you made in the US/Israel & Pakistan/China relations - there is a difference when it comes to the F-22 (Raptor) & the J-20. (If) the United States were willing to sell the Raptor to Israel, that ship has sailed & though the Raptor may be the most advanced, capable and expensive jet out there. Its been out of production for nearly a decade. I don't Lockheed Martin jump starting that project with Congress against it. And people should also be aware that the US are not going to take a bullet for Israel either, infact could throw them under the bus for their own interests. The Israel F-16 sale to Croatia was a glimpse that picture ain't that perfect.

The J-20, on the other hand is something new and if there is something we've learned is that the Chinese will do probably anything to piss off the United States. Case in Point: Huawei 5G

I'm not certain if I got your point about PAF - J-20 - Chinese - Own Pilots.

Its either:
a) PAF requesting PLAAF J-20's to be stationed in Pakistan.
b) PAF paying/buying J-20's & have Chinese Pilots to operate them.

Option (A) would make sense (kind of), but what kind of Govt would opt for Option (B)?!!

Personally (& this is my opinion), but I just don't think that the J-20's can only be assessable after/if the Chinese were to come up with a better/next generation jet.

Finally, I would (again) like to come back to the point I raised in my last post. What's so special about the J-20, that the Chinese have put the label "Not for Export". One can/could understand US's stand for the F-22 (Raptor), but China's stand puzzles me...

Does the stealth coating have the DNA of a certain chopper they somehow got their hands on?
there is a Chance that both Parties don't want to export both jets for export because its technology (F-22/J-20) might fall into enemy hands for F-22 (Russian/Chinese), for J-20 (India/USA/EU) @Trailer23
 
Okay, so I do understand the comparison you made in the US/Israel & Pakistan/China relations - there is a difference when it comes to the F-22 (Raptor) & the J-20. (If) the United States were willing to sell the Raptor to Israel, that ship has sailed & though the Raptor may be the most advanced, capable and expensive jet out there. Its been out of production for nearly a decade. I don't Lockheed Martin jump starting that project with Congress against it. And people should also be aware that the US are not going to take a bullet for Israel either, infact could throw them under the bus for their own interests. The Israel F-16 sale to Croatia was a glimpse that picture ain't that perfect.

The J-20, on the other hand is something new and if there is something we've learned is that the Chinese will do probably anything to piss off the United States. Case in Point: Huawei 5G

I'm not certain if I got your point about PAF - J-20 - Chinese - Own Pilots.

Its either:
a) PAF requesting PLAAF J-20's to be stationed in Pakistan.
b) PAF paying/buying J-20's & have Chinese Pilots to operate them.

Option (A) would make sense (kind of), but what kind of Govt would opt for Option (B)?!!

Personally (& this is my opinion), but I just don't think that the J-20's can only be assessable after/if the Chinese were to come up with a better/next generation jet.

Finally, I would (again) like to come back to the point I raised in my last post. What's so special about the J-20, that the Chinese have put the label "Not for Export". One can/could understand US's stand for the F-22 (Raptor), but China's stand puzzles me...

Does the stealth coating have the DNA of a certain chopper they somehow got their hands on?
Hi my friend thanks for your detailed & in-depth reply
Now if i May ask you couple of more Q against the j20 supply for PAF
I hope you can elaborate more against my Q
A why would you think China will give away their latest technology which even they didn’t export
To any other country even not sharing anything with Russia against their stealth technology
B Why do you think China shouldn’t take the same stride as USA did for F22
As being a less informed member on this forum I think I can say to some extent that f35 is less capable then the F22 as USA is not willing to share their Raptor technology with any other nation
I think same is the case with China they will surely sell their stealth technology to PAF or may be any other Middle Eastern country but with inferior technology to j20 that’s the reason j31 is still in the shadows for some time as China also have some years to go for their fully operational 2/3
ACC for their naval force
Just my thoughts Pakistan shouldn’t be expecting everything specially the top tier Chinese technology until unless Chinese have upgraded version of that technology as there is no free lunch on the table specially every time
Once again thx for your early detailed reply
Thank you
 
there is a Chance that both Parties don't want to export both jets for export because its technology (F-22/J-20) might fall into enemy hands for F-22 (Russian/Chinese), for J-20 (India/USA/EU) @Trailer23
Well, yeah that could be the case, but as I mentioned earlier the F-22 is no longer in production & Congress doesn't want to buy any more OR let Lockheed Martin sell 'em to another Nation.

Not to upset our Chinese friends, but the fact is that though the F-22 is 2 decade old tech, the J-20 isn't anywhere near the Raptor.

And there is a purpose for these type of Jets wither we accept it or not. The so-called 'Stealth' technology was basically an advanced version of the U-2 that the Americans introduced. If China fears that it may end up in the hands of India/US/EU, then they might as well put them under covers & fly 'em at Parades & Air Shows.

A. why would you think China will give away their latest technology which even they didn’t export To any other country even not sharing anything with Russia against their stealth technology
B. Why do you think China shouldn’t take the same stride as USA did for F22 As being a less informed member on this forum I think I can say to some extent that f35 is less capable then the F22 as USA is not willing to share their Raptor technology with any other nation
I think same is the case with China they will surely sell their stealth technology to PAF or may be any other Middle Eastern country but with inferior technology to j20 that’s the reason j31 is still in the shadows for some time as China also have some years to go for their fully operational 2/3
ACC for their naval force
Just my thoughts Pakistan shouldn’t be expecting everything specially the top tier Chinese technology until unless Chinese have upgraded version of that technology as there is no free lunch on the table specially every time
Once again thx for your early detailed reply
Thank you
First off, though the J-20 is now operational - I do not believe that the Chinese are completely satisfied with its engines 100%. Sure, there might be a Block II in the works with more goodies involved, but to say the J-20 is near perfect is an under statement. They can & will improve it (further).

If the J-20 was all as it has been advertised, the Chinese would not be shopping for the Su-57...and trust me, those RUSki's don't need China to share their Stealth Tech.

Obviously the F-22 is far more advanced than the F-35, which also explains the drop in $10 Million price tag from Lockheed Martin for the USAF.

In comparison the J-20 is the F-22 & the J-31 is the F-35 for China. And China might not sell the J-20 to anyone in the Middle East (for obvious reasons), but if there is any Nation - Pakistan would/could get it - if they could cough up the money.

I (personally) believe that some of friends on PDF automatically insinuate that just because we've had a long standing relations with China, they're just gonna pick up the phone & ask us to come over & take whatever we want in their inventory free of cost.

Currently..., i'm interested in a Trump/IK Meeting in the future. THAT meeting will lay out the options the PAF will have. We either get F-16's or not.

If not, what're our options...? J-10's or FC-31/J-31.
 
Spot on .Tragedy of us the Pakistanis,always try to define strategic and economic relations between countries either on love (in case of China) or hate basis(USA) but not on their real merit
Well, yeah that could be the case, but as I mentioned earlier the F-22 is no longer in production & Congress doesn't want to buy any more OR let Lockheed Martin sell 'em to another Nation.

Not to upset our Chinese friends, but the fact is that though the F-22 is 2 decade old tech, the J-20 isn't anywhere near the Raptor.

And there is a purpose for these type of Jets wither we accept it or not. The so-called 'Stealth' technology was basically an advanced version of the U-2 that the Americans introduced. If China fears that it may end up in the hands of India/US/EU, then they might as well put them under covers & fly 'em at Parades & Air Shows.


First off, though the J-20 is now operational - I do not believe that the Chinese are completely satisfied with its engines 100%. Sure, there might be a Block II in the works with more goodies involved, but to say the J-20 is near perfect is an under statement. They can & will improve it (further).

If the J-20 was all as it has been advertised, the Chinese would not be shopping for the Su-57...and trust me, those RUSki's don't need China to share their Stealth Tech.

Obviously the F-22 is far more advanced than the F-35, which also explains the drop in $10 Million price tag from Lockheed Martin for the USAF.

In comparison the J-20 is the F-22 & the J-31 is the F-35 for China. And China might not sell the J-20 to anyone in the Middle East (for obvious reasons), but if there is any Nation - Pakistan would/could get it - if they could cough up the money.

I (personally) believe that some of friends on PDF automatically insinuate that just because we've had a long standing relations with China, they're just gonna pick up the phone & ask us to come over & take whatever we want in their inventory free of cost.

Currently..., i'm interested in a Trump/IK Meeting in the future. THAT meeting will lay out the options the PAF will have. We either get F-16's or not.

If not, what're our options...? J-10's or FC-31/J-31.
Forget about getting anything of value. Time for reality check
 
Newer version J35 seems more promising and capable with WS19 engine
It would suit ideally with project Azam
Parallel to this TFX can be incorporated

If AZAM and TFX both focus it, may develop into a formidable fifth gen to challenge F35
 
Hi,

@Deino has talked many a times about pakistan not having funds for aircraft---.

Yet the production of 054's has begun---4---one after the other---8 submarines---1 after the other---and multiple other corvettes and weapons---.

What was that---close to 8 billion dollar deals for navy---.

And according to deino---pak had no funds---.

Now for the J20---the J20 is not fully developed---it is in the critical stage of final development---. Once it reaches that stage---it would first meet the needs of the Plaaf by default---. And after that if Paf decides to buy it---there is nothing from the chinese side that would stop it---.

Write it down---take it to the bank and deposit it in the safe deposit---.

Over 8 years ago I wrote about pak navy to get the type 054's---4 subs and aircraft---and all super studs were crying---Pak has no money---but about 3-4 years ago---suddenly the money popped up---.

The problem here is not china---the problem here is pakistan---. Pakistanis are petty criminals---all they know is to take bribes and commission and steal land---they do not know how to make deals for the welfare of the nation---.

The American came asking for help after 9/11---. Pakistan was sitting on the deal of the century---yet they fckd up so bad that you cannot even cry about it---. The US was a LAYDOWN at that time---and yet the pakistani public let them get away with it---.

What happened with the 8 submarine order---and the 4 type 054 order---. The indian sub came in visiting---. Pakistan navy was fck face wondering what happened---china was fck faced what did we do---they both suddenly found out that they both fckd up---.

The geo political tactical situation of gwadar had taken a very very serious and a sharp turn or the worst---as it was supposed to---and I had talked about it for a almost decade ago that neither would china---nor would pakistan be ready to protect gwadar because they both were not ready to understand what gwadar was doing to the region---.

Next came the Yemen crisis---where pakistan again failed miserably to understand the consequences---. The came 26th feb---and then came the sanctions back on iran---iran also threatened to attack pakistan as well---US naval battle group back in the region and then suddenly china realized how critical the situation had grown---.

The US had deployed the F22 / F35 in an active role in the region ( syria )to tell pakistan and china---hey little boyz---take a look at our toyz---.

Now why is china building the J20's if it still needs changes---because it wants to get its pilots and techs ready to use the aircraft to its fullest capacity and familiarize itself with what it has now---and when the final changes take place the pilots and tech would already be on top of their game knowing the aircraft to around 80%---and the newer changes would be absorbed at a much much faster pace---.

That final product is what the Paf would want---.
 
Hi,

@Deino has talked many a times about pakistan not having funds for aircraft---.
...
And according to deino---pak had no funds---.
....
That final product is what the Paf would want---.


Pardon to say so, but again You are deliberately misquote one of my previous post, put it into a wrong perspective, hide the issue I addressed to by other useless and irrelevant stuff and in the end reply with exactly the same nonsense like my once two year-old kid in the Supermarket.

In summary: I want this and that and I need to get it the way I like it to get ... like "That final product is what the Paf would want"

Again, after our last discussion on "just mate the FC-31 design, which is a copy of the F-35 and mate it with a WS-19 - that can't be too difficult - .." I cannot take you serious any more.

Therefore I would like to quote You from another post:

That is not intelligent of you---. Talk intelligent please---.

Please take your own advice and "Talk intelligent please".
 
Pardon to say so, but again You are deliberately misquote one of my previous post, put it into a wrong perspective, hide the issue I addressed to by other useless and irrelevant stuff and in the end reply with exactly the same nonsense like my once two year-old kid in the Supermarket.

In summary: I want this and that and I need to get it the way I like it to get ... like "That final product is what the Paf would want"

Again, after our last discussion on "just mate the FC-31 design, which is a copy of the F-35 and mate it with a WS-19 - that can't be too difficult - .." I cannot take you serious any more.

Therefore I would like to quote You from another post:



Please take your own advice and "Talk intelligent please".

Hi @Deino

I have yet to see an article about J31 that does not say it to not to be a copy of the F35---.

The reports presented in front of the US congress / senate say the same thing about the stolen design---.

They don't know---but the great @Deino knows it all---even though the chinese were spanked hard for stealing the design features of the F35---but as they did not inform you---it did not happen---.

Deino---I know what I know---I just bring out your name just to rub your face in the dirt to let you know---if pakistan wants it---it will get it from china---just like the 8 sub contract---just like the 4 type 054's in production---an over 6 billion dollar deal---.

These are just 3 links at random on the web comparing the j31 to be a design of the F35---.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...lth-fighter-vs-chinas-new-j-31-who-wins-13938

https://www.businessinsider.com/9-p...t-version-of-the-f-35-stealth-fighter-2018-10


https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/g23303922/china-copycat-air-force/

Shenyang J-31 and the U.S. F-35
final7-1537299087.jpg

VCG AND YICHUAN CAO/NURPHOTOGETTY IMAGES
Like the F-22, Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter was also compromised by Su Bin, leading to China’s J-31 program. This jet, still under development, possesses a greater operational range and larger payload capacity than the F-35 it was based on. There is an expectation that the J-31 will become China’s primary carrier-based fighter once it reaches full production, replacing the PLA-N’s troubled J-15 once it enters service. Like the J-20 program, the J-31 is limited by China’s inexperience with stealth aircraft.

Aesthetically, the J-31 seems to borrow heavily from both the F-35 and F-22 programs, suggesting that it may be lighter and more maneuverable than America’s top-tier fighter. But it does lack some degree of the F-35’s stealth characteristics, as well as the American jet’s real claim to fame—a sensor suite that offers the pilot greater awareness of the battlespace.

In many ways, the F-35 serves not only as a fighter, but as a data hub. There is no indication that China’s J-31 has been able to fuse such a large variety of feeds into a singular manageable interface. That means the F-35’s ability to fight from beyond the horizon won’t be found in its Chinese knock-off.


https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...lth-fighter-vs-chinas-new-j-31-who-wins-13938
 
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