‘Sab ka Kashmir’

[SRP]

Lets not use the indian timeline of events which start from the "tribal invasion" but the real time line.

On November 5 and 6, 1947, more than 100 lories, loaded with women, children and old men were taken into the wilderness of Kuthua forests. Hindu extremists and armed gangs were let loose on these innocent people and an unparallel butchery was perpetrated,

British daily The London Times quoting its special correspondent in India stated that the Maharaja, under his own supervision, got assassinated 2,37,000 Muslims, using military forces in the Jammu area.

The editor of Statesman, Ian Stephen, in his book Horned Moon writes that till the end of autumn 1947, more than 200,000 Muslims were murdered in one go. Horace Alexander wrote in the Spectator (16 January 1948) that the killings had “the tacit consent of State authority” and put the figure at 2,00,000.

Times of London reported the events in Jammu with such a front page headlines: “Elimination of Muslims from Jammu”, and pointed out that Maharaja Hari Singh was “in person commanding all the forces” which were ethnically cleansing the Muslims.

Daily Telegraph of London dated 12 January 1948
The other aspect of the carnage was appropriation of properties of Muslims. The Muslim names were immediately erased to conform to new ownership. For instance Urdu Bazar became Rajinder Bazar and Islamia School became Hari Singh High School to conform to the new “ownership”. Almost 95 percent of left-over properties, which should have in the normal course been taken over by the State government were allowed appropriated by looters and rioters

So that gives you an idea of what was going on before any "tribal invasion".

Patiala State infantrymen stationed at Jammu and Patiala gunners positioned at Srinagar Airfield on 17th of October 1947 could not have gone unnoticed

So the excuse that the indian army only came in after the "tribal invasion" is false.

It was only after the mass killings that the Muslims soldiers from poonch-mirpur had a uprising against the Dogra regime for its connivance in the ethnic cleansing of Muslims in kashmir. They knew that the Dogra regime intended to accede to India and New Delhi had annexation design over the state.It was only after the full indian invasion of kashmir that the pak army-militias came to the aid of the kashmiris.
(Quoted by Rajendera Sareen in his book Pakistan: The India factor, New Delhi, 1948, p-221) Government of India in order to justify their invasion on State of Jammu Kashmir launched a propaganda that there was no Poonch rebellion but that 1,00,000 ferocious Tribesman had invaded Kashmir at the instigation of Pakistan Government who looted and killed everyone coming in their way; and that they had been imparted training and supplied transport facilities by Pakistan Army.

1.Dogra regime go on mass killing spree of muslim in jammu
2.Indian army assisted by Hindu and Sikh extremists —— both local and those imported from the East Punjab help dogra forces.
3.Uprising in kashmir with poonchis-mirpuris soldiers taking the lead
4.Full invasion by the indian army
5.Followed by pak army-militia help for kashmiris

Now moving onto the instrument of accesion
According to the Indians the original “Article of of Accession” for the state of Kashmir is lost–as if it ever existed. There are serious issues of timing and dates pointed out by various international, Pakistani and Indian authors–The works of Stanley Wolpert and Alistair Lamb stand out in this matter.
Kashmir article of accession was never presented to Pakistan or the UN. It has now been lost, if it ever existed. Even the forged copy has problems with dates The International Commission of Jurists (ICJ), based in Geneva, passed a resolution proclaiming Kashmir’s accession to India as bogus and null and void.
Alastair Lamb (in his book, Kashmir – A disputed legacy 1846-1990) points out that the Instrument of Accession could not have been signed by the Mahrajah on 26th October as he was travelling by road to Jammu (a distance of over 350 Km).
No satisfactory original of the Instrument of Accession has ever been produced in an international forum; a published form has always been shown. Further, the document was not presented to Pakistan or to the UN. In the summer of 1995, the Indian authorities reported the original document as lost or stolen. This sheds further doubt on whether the Mahrajah actually signed the Instrument of Accession.

can you give link for this claim?

 

[dabong1]

can you give link for this claim?

Am pretty sure you can highlight extracts and copy and paste them into google and see what comes up.
I have given you names dates and times so it cant that hard to research it.
If theres anything in particular that you want a link for....point it out and i will get you the link.

 

[janon]

Lets not use the indian timeline of events which start from the "tribal invasion" but the real time line.

On November 5 and 6, 1947, more than 100 lories, loaded with women, children and old men were taken into the wilderness of Kuthua forests. Hindu extremists and armed gangs were let loose on these innocent people and an unparallel butchery was perpetrated,

British daily The London Times quoting its special correspondent in India stated that the Maharaja, under his own supervision, got assassinated 2,37,000 Muslims, using military forces in the Jammu area.

The editor of Statesman, Ian Stephen, in his book Horned Moon writes that till the end of autumn 1947, more than 200,000 Muslims were murdered in one go. Horace Alexander wrote in the Spectator (16 January 1948) that the killings had “the tacit consent of State authority” and put the figure at 2,00,000.

Times of London reported the events in Jammu with such a front page headlines: “Elimination of Muslims from Jammu”, and pointed out that Maharaja Hari Singh was “in person commanding all the forces” which were ethnically cleansing the Muslims.

Daily Telegraph of London dated 12 January 1948
The other aspect of the carnage was appropriation of properties of Muslims. The Muslim names were immediately erased to conform to new ownership. For instance Urdu Bazar became Rajinder Bazar and Islamia School became Hari Singh High School to conform to the new “ownership”. Almost 95 percent of left-over properties, which should have in the normal course been taken over by the State government were allowed appropriated by looters and rioters

So that gives you an idea of what was going on before any "tribal invasion".

Patiala State infantrymen stationed at Jammu and Patiala gunners positioned at Srinagar Airfield on 17th of October 1947 could not have gone unnoticed

So the excuse that the indian army only came in after the "tribal invasion" is false.

It was only after the mass killings that the Muslims soldiers from poonch-mirpur had a uprising against the Dogra regime for its connivance in the ethnic cleansing of Muslims in kashmir. They knew that the Dogra regime intended to accede to India and New Delhi had annexation design over the state.It was only after the full indian invasion of kashmir that the pak army-militias came to the aid of the kashmiris.
(Quoted by Rajendera Sareen in his book Pakistan: The India factor, New Delhi, 1948, p-221) Government of India in order to justify their invasion on State of Jammu Kashmir launched a propaganda that there was no Poonch rebellion but that 1,00,000 ferocious Tribesman had invaded Kashmir at the instigation of Pakistan Government who looted and killed everyone coming in their way; and that they had been imparted training and supplied transport facilities by Pakistan Army.

1.Dogra regime go on mass killing spree of muslim in jammu
2.Indian army assisted by Hindu and Sikh extremists —— both local and those imported from the East Punjab help dogra forces.
3.Uprising in kashmir with poonchis-mirpuris soldiers taking the lead
4.Full invasion by the indian army
5.Followed by pak army-militia help for kashmiris

Now moving onto the instrument of accesion
According to the Indians the original “Article of of Accession” for the state of Kashmir is lost–as if it ever existed. There are serious issues of timing and dates pointed out by various international, Pakistani and Indian authors–The works of Stanley Wolpert and Alistair Lamb stand out in this matter.
Kashmir article of accession was never presented to Pakistan or the UN. It has now been lost, if it ever existed. Even the forged copy has problems with dates The International Commission of Jurists (ICJ), based in Geneva, passed a resolution proclaiming Kashmir’s accession to India as bogus and null and void.
Alastair Lamb (in his book, Kashmir – A disputed legacy 1846-1990) points out that the Instrument of Accession could not have been signed by the Mahrajah on 26th October as he was travelling by road to Jammu (a distance of over 350 Km).
No satisfactory original of the Instrument of Accession has ever been produced in an international forum; a published form has always been shown. Further, the document was not presented to Pakistan or to the UN. In the summer of 1995, the Indian authorities reported the original document as lost or stolen. This sheds further doubt on whether the Mahrajah actually signed the Instrument of Accession.

Unadulterated BS, and demonstrably so. The first part is of course the pakistani skewed version of events. The last part, about there not having been any instrument of accession - how far can you take this charade?

The maharaja was alive until 1961, and his son was the governor of the state for a long time, and is still a parliamentarian. Don't you think that the maharaja would have told the world that he did not sign an instrument of accession, and that it was just an Indian propoganda, until his death in 1961? Do you really think that such things can be forged and disseminated?

Here is the instrument of accession (ok, it's an image of the same):

Princeton university's page for that document and corresponding documents:
Instrument of Accession (Jammu and Kashmir)

If this was a massive fraud perpetrated by India on the rest of the world, and the maharaja's signature was forged by conniving Indians, the maharaja himself could have said so. He had plenty of time. Man, I really can't debunk every conspiracy theory thrown up here.

 

[cleverrider]

Now is not the Time for Open Borders May be in future.

 

[Hyperion]

Kashmir tum sabb log bant lo, meray liye eik @ZYXW hee kaafi hai!

 

[dabong1]

Unadulterated BS, and demonstrably so. The first part is of course the pakistani skewed version of events. The last part, about there not having been any instrument of accession - how far can you take this charade?

The maharaja was alive until 1961, and his son was the governor of the state for a long time, and is still a parliamentarian. Don't you think that the maharaja would have told the world that he did not sign an instrument of accession, and that it was just an Indian propoganda, until his death in 1961? Do you really think that such things can be forged and disseminated?

Here is the instrument of accession (ok, it's an image of the same):

Princeton university's page for that document and corresponding documents:
Instrument of Accession (Jammu and Kashmir)

If this was a massive fraud perpetrated by India on the rest of the world, and the maharaja's signature was forged by conniving Indians, the maharaja himself could have said so. He had plenty of time. Man, I really can't debunk every conspiracy theory thrown up here.

complete BS.......show us the original copy.
The International Commission of Jurists (ICJ), based in Geneva, passed a resolution proclaiming Kashmir’s accession to India as bogus and null and void.

@dabong1 - Mate, are you a Kashmiri ?

Pakistani from kashmir

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

@Joe Shearer
what's your take on the genocide description given in #29

 

[janon]

complete BS.......show us the original copy.
The International Commission of Jurists (ICJ), based in Geneva, passed a resolution proclaiming Kashmir’s accession to India as bogus and null and void.

Show a legitimate link to that claim, an unbiased one. If it was a resolution passed by the ICJ, you would find a link to it on their website. The only websites which claim that nonsense are pakistani ones. The ICJ has not passed any such resolution. On the contrary, ICJ has been actively monitoring the democratic process in Indian kashmir since 1976, incuding the elections.

Please show me a link to the resolution on their website, or any respectable, non partisan media source. These are lies peddled by pakistanis.

As I said before - if the instrument of accession was a forgery, and the maharaja did not actually sign that document, he would have said so himself. He was alive for 14 years more.

 

[Dillinger]

Kashmir tum sabb log bant lo, meray liye eik @ZYXW hee kaafi hai!

Hands off. I have decided to contest your claim. Sorry bro, can't let her go with a Talib.

On topic, what absolute bullfu##. IF someone takes it from us then all well and good, a legitimate victory it will be but we ain't giving it up nor sharing it.. specially not to AK toting mard-e-momins.

 

[Aka123]

First and foremost thing for any solution.

People to people Contact should increase. Liberalization of visas should be done. Visa on arrival should be started for all.
Indians should know how Pakistanis are and Pakistanis should know how Indians are.
I doubt how many Indians and Pakistanis have met each other. That's one prime reason, they sit in distant lands, listen to media and political propaganda and baselessly start hating each other.I have met many Pakistanis and can guaranty that the relationship is not what we see here. Don't get misguided by PDF.

One more thing, remember terrorists never come with visas.

 

[Bullet500]

Why just Kashmir, open all borders between India and Pakistan like European Union and then watch South Asia Mushroom and Flourish into a World Super Power in less than 10 years.

And let islamist radicals into india? No fking way!!

 

[janon]

One more thing, remember terrorists never come with visas.

Sometimes they do. All the terrorists who blew up the world trade center on 9/11 came to the US on valid visas.

 

[Manindra]

Show a legitimate link to that claim, an unbiased one. If it was a resolution passed by the ICJ, you would find a link to it on their website. The only websites which claim that nonsense are pakistani ones. The ICJ has not passed any such resolution. On the contrary, ICJ has been actively monitoring the democratic process in Indian kashmir since 1976, incuding the elections.

Please show me a link to the resolution on their website, or any respectable, non partisan media source. These are lies peddled by pakistanis.

As I said before - if the instrument of accession was a forgery, and the maharaja did not actually sign that document, he would have said so himself. He was alive for 14 years more.

His media come with fake wikileaks cable, what do you expect from him

Thread title trolls me & I come here for my share of kashmir

 

[Aka123]

Sometimes they do. All the terrorists who blew up the world trade center on 9/11 came to the US on valid visas.

I am saying liberalize visa and not give up security check.
Also remember before WTC incident, terrorism was not that common and the World was not that equipped to defend this kind of incidents.
And don't compare with 9/11. It happened due to overconfidence of USA.

They thought sitting in a distant land( far off from the rest of the World Landmass), they will interfare in every countries affairs but were too ignorant to think that someone can easily cross that vast stretch of sea and retaliate to them. That's the reason their security system was also loose during that time.

Remember Titanic was the biggest vessel on Earth but still it sinked in it's very first voyage. Ignorance can be fatal.

 

[mirage2K]

Why just Kashmir, open all borders between India and Pakistan like European Union and then watch South Asia Mushroom and Flourish into a World Super Power in less than 10 years.

open borders and welcome terrorists and illegal immigrants, thank you very much for the suggestion but we are not interested...yes you are right on the mushrooming part...we will be mushrooming with more illegal immigrants