S-400 : A silver bullet for IAF air defence systems?

[Baibars_1260]

the moment you switch on that radar which will be like switching on a torch in the pitch black. the location will be made visible straight away and then you will be able to carry out the necessary SEAD option against it.

There is a reason why s400 is mobile system that is kept on the move and NOT a stationary system!

How effective would AGM-88E HARM missiles be against an S-400?
We don't know exactly what variant of the AGM-88 HARM Pakistan uses.
Pakistan also uses the MAR-1 missile.

 

[Baibars_1260]

A question came to mind. What was PAF doing in China during last Shaheen VIII exercise? Not to mention that Turkey has the S-400 as well.......... in both cases, who knows. All you need to do is, sharpen your skills and develop your tactics. No doubt S-400 is a capable platform as of yet but then again; one should never be over confident or think that a force like PAF will sleeping by then.

How well would the S-400 be protected from an EMP weapon?
Usually these systems are designed to withstand an EMP. But the EMP itself degrades (temporarily) the electronic radio frequency environment by creating static similar to a sunburst.
Pakistan is rumored to have EMP weapons. However the wide spectrum RF static from an EMP wanes over a few minutes and that may not be sufficient to get off an airstrike.

 

[Path-Finder]

How effective would AGM-88E HARM missiles be against an S-400?
We don't know exactly what variant of the AGM-88 HARM Pakistan uses.
Pakistan also uses the MAR-1 missile.

This will need something better than AGM-88 which is for battlefield SAM's

 

[The Eagle]

How well would the S-400 be protected from an EMP weapon?
Usually these systems are designed to withstand an EMP. But the EMP itself degrades (temporarily) the electronic radio frequency environment by creating static similar to a sunburst.
Pakistan is rumored to have EMP weapons. However the wide spectrum RF static from an EMP wanes over a few minutes and that may not be sufficient to get off an airstrike.

I am not an expert of EMP related field or precisely in wave band or frequency detraction expert but, tactics are not executed in stand alone point. There will be different factors, elements, equipment & maneuvers deployed at the same time in counter to such a threat. For example, as you quoted the time for few Minutes and I say even double digit seconds can make a lot of difference but again, that depends upon the deployment & execution by the attacking force.

 

[TNT]

I m talking about different defense systems, here!
1. Israeli low-level Spyder quick-reaction surface-to-air missle (QR-SAM) systems (15-km range)
2. Akash area defence missile systems (25-km range)
3. long-range Barak-8 SAM systems (70 to 100-km range)
4. S 125 SAM systems (incorporates with the S 300 System " PSM-33 Mk.2 Radar and the ST-68 ‘Tin Shield’ Radar")
4. S-400 Triumf missile
5. Indian Ballistic Missile Defence systems

It will provide layer of protections to India and indian cities. your are just talking about layer protection of S 400 missile defense system.

I am telling that Pakistan will not gonna to deal alone with S 400 defense systems.

S400 has short range capability as well, it has 4 range layers, so if u have to deploy spyder and barak and akash and chopra all at contiguous areas then its a waste. India has a large landmass and most probably wont have more than 2 different systems at an area.
Its not that we only worry about S400 and dont see all those SAM systems and IAF, its also not as if S400 totally changes everything.

 

[PanzerKiel]

what happens when you are painted by radars?
beeping in the cockpit?
what goes in your mind?
is it like being in front of sniper and he is just waiting to push the trigger?

A constant beep or maybe a constant visual warning through the aircraft Radar Warning Receiver. You can't just ignore it because it keeps flashing in front of you and making a shrill sound....

I used to be on simulators with PAF pilots....

 

[khanmubashir]

UCAVS and Long range SOWs in cognitive EW is initial way to go, we can get Stealth UCAVs and suicide drones for putting pressure on Indian AD.

On 27 Feb 19 paf Ew tactics were so effective Indians could not even I'd or communicate with their helicopter right atop Sri Nagar airbase
These theoretical ranges r without considering Ew tactics

Besides nearly ever battle Russian gear has performed much poorly then what it's brochure said

S400 can easily take out Sub sonic ALCMs, you’ll need supersonic cruise missiles to neutralise it and currently we and Russia are the only ones who have it.

Yeah that's why USA tomahawks hit Syrian targets with impunity
Even bases where Russian were based
And Russian still couldn't intercept em with 30 minutes prior warning to scat
Lrsm nsm most of upcoming NATO cm r subsonic terrain hugging so they confident they can deal with s400 and whatever Russian can muster in the near future

 

[Baibars_1260]

I am not an expert of EMP related field or precisely in wave band or frequency detraction expert but, tactics are not executed in stand alone point. There will be different factors, elements, equipment & maneuvers deployed at the same time in counter to such a threat. For example, as you quoted the time for few Minutes and I say even double digit seconds can make a lot of difference but again, that depends upon the deployment & execution by the attacking force.

Absolutely correct, and I was grossly mistaken.
I just did some more research. An EMP is unlikely to either damage an S-400 system or even temporarily degrade its capabilities through RF static . The RF static will be hardly more than for a fraction of a second.
An EMP is not even remotely as powerful as a solar flare ( sun burst) which is trillions of times more powerful than any EMP, even one generated from a thermonuclear explosion. The sun is 148 million kilometers away from the earth and the solar flares deliver 10^20 joules of energy. The time it takes for the energy to reach the earth, peak and wane is because of the distance traveled. Communications have been known to be affected only by about 2 minutes from a naturally occurring sunburst. An EMP is not even remotely as powerful.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It is always better to let the enemy believe in what they want to---.

The adversary also has a game plan.

 

[aziqbal]

best way to counter Indian S400 is get Turkey + China to handle the EW information

use it to programme our own missiles, basically building our own S400 hunting missiles

also allow our air force to train against these systems in Turkey to develop tactics to avoid them

overall I dont see S400 as a big threat, we can developed two methods

1 - to take them out
2- to avoid them

 

[Baibars_1260]

S400 has short range capability as well, it has 4 range layers, so if u have to deploy spyder and barak and akash and chopra all at contiguous areas then its a waste. India has a large landmass and most probably wont have more than 2 different systems at an area.
Its not that we only worry about S400 and dont see all those SAM systems and IAF, its also not as if S400 totally changes everything.

On the short range low altitude capacity.
How do layered systems work against an MRLS such as the A300 MRLS system? Or is this even needed for protection of the S400?

If an S400 does not have independent protection from an A300 MRLS then it would need to be screened by its own layered defense system, with an envelope radius of 250-290 km or kept that further away.

 

[PanzerKiel]

best way to counter Indian S400 is get Turkey + China to handle the EW information

use it to programme our own missiles, basically building our own S400 hunting missiles

also allow our air force to train against these systems in Turkey to develop tactics to avoid them

overall I dont see S400 as a big threat, we can developed two methods

1 - to take them out
2- to avoid them

Exactly.

A radar transmitting is always vulnerable since its transmission is normally caught by AWACS and other receivers to be stored in a threat library which also contains the frequencies on which the radar operates.

If you know the frequencies, it makes the task of ECM aircraft easy since they know exactly which all frequencies to jam.

On the short range low altitude capacity.
How do layered systems work against an MRLS such as the A300 MRLS system? Or is this even needed for protection of the S400?

If an S400 does not have independent protection from an A300 MRLS then it would need to be screened by its own layered defense system, with an envelope radius of 250-290 km or kept that further away.

Generally, such costly systems are protected by dedicated troops in order to guard both against ground and aerial threats against which the system itself won't be operating.

 

[Baibars_1260]

An interesting news item here but it could be propaganda or Syrian incompetence.
-----

Unanswered Israeli Air Strikes Against Syria Raise S-400 Questions - Breaking Defense

The first signs of dissatisfaction with the Russian air defense systems came on May 1 when the Syria Direct website ran a story quoting what was described as a Syrian military source who criticized the S-300 air defense systems supplied by Russia.

breakingdefense.com

TEL AVIV: Israeli air strikes against targetsin Syria may be one of the main reasons for the growing crisis between Russia and Turkey since they’re highlighting the Russian-made S-400 air defense systemsmay not be as effective as Turkey believed.

The first signs of dissatisfaction with the Russian air defense systems came on May 1 when the Syria Direct website ran a story quoting what was described as a Syrian military source who criticized the S-300 air defense systems supplied by Russia. The source pointed to the repeated failures of the Russian-made systems to protect sites in Syria from the Israeli strikes. The comments by the apparent Syrian military official was the first clear sign of a big dispute between Moscow and Ankara related to the operational efficiency of the air defense systems

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Your analysis of the capability of the S400 and its deployment in the India/Pakistan theatre is flawed, as it does not take into account the need to place the S400 system far enough from Pakistan to not come under long range MLRS systems that can take it out. MLRS system have reached the 400km + range now, coupled with ELINT and AWACs aircraft, they can provide guidance to MLRS systems to fire at a S400 site as soon as it is activated.

You only have to look at the performance of the S300 system in Armenia to see, they are very vulnerable, both to drones and MLRS systems now.

The S400 system will make strikes against India more difficult, but i think its ability to affect the war over Pakistan will be quite limited.

Turkey must use your post to lift the ban on F35 program by America.
the ban was placed due to its miltiple application of intelligence gathering and offensive capability whether or not it is vulnerable to atracks is different subject. it doesnt come in isolation and hasmultiple layers of defences from other units and platforms against MLRS or whatever threatens it. if similar or older version examples were defeated in Armenian or Syrian conflict then check out how the attackers degraded the defences and isolated the other systems before targetting S300 etc.

 

[Crixus]

The best way for Pakistan to deal with Indian air defence is to exploit the integration issue between different kind of AD systems India has or will have ..... ultimate success or failure is directly proportional to the level of integration achieved between different platforms by the end of day S-400 is for defence not attack, so its only comes into picture when PAF is the aggressor otherwise no worries for PAF .