S-400 : A silver bullet for IAF air defence systems?

[PanzerKiel]

It still is a big threat, Pakistan needs to do something, either sabotage the S400s when they reach India through covert attacks, or somehow Russia pulls out of the deal. Something needs to be done.

Necessary MEASURES and PLATFORMS have already been taken / inducted in order to neutralize these systems once GO AHEAD is received.

 

[Vapour]

It still is a big threat, Pakistan needs to do something, either sabotage the S400s when they reach India through covert attacks, or somehow Russia pulls out of the deal. Something needs to be done.

Think it's too late to make Russia pull out of the deal as initial payments have been made IIRC, unless something truly drastic happens. I'm sure all the relevant commands etc., have formulated plans to combat the S400, obviously won't be told to us but imagine should another aerial encounter take place a year or two down the road, taking out or steering clear of a S400 system would be high on the priority list.

 

[HostileInsurgent]

It still is a big threat, Pakistan needs to do something, either sabotage the S400s when they reach India through covert attacks, or somehow Russia pulls out of the deal. Something needs to be done.

We will be the 2nd largest user of S400 after Russia with 5 Regiments on order and 5 More under consideration. 5 Regiments means 80 Launchers, how many will you sabotage?

And Colonel Rajesh can sabotage your Air defences as well if you can.

 

[Basel]

They need BIG GUNS like a Semi Stealth platform with a long range ALCM.

PAF already have 500km+ range ALCMs but more variety of tech is also needed.

 

[HostileInsurgent]

PAF already have 500km+ range ALCMs but more variety of tech is also needed.

S400 can easily take out Sub sonic ALCMs, you’ll need supersonic cruise missiles to neutralise it and currently we and Russia are the only ones who have it.

 

[Basel]

S400 can easily take out Sub sonic ALCMs, you’ll need supersonic cruise missiles to neutralise it and currently we and Russia are the only ones who have it.

Nope it can not as ALCM have low RCS and will be supported by other very capable systems to tackle Indian AD, its not as simple as some Indian think, that S-400 is out of this world.

 

[PanzerKiel]

For me, not even the missile of S-400, but the radar itself is the biggest challenge. A pilot whose aircraft is getting painted hundreds of kms away from target by an enemy radar would be in a really difficult situation....when to prematurely drop his payload and start evasive maneuvers.......since he will never know when the SAM battery starts firing or what type of missile is being fired....what i have seen and experienced in near-real situations, my aircraft getting painted by a hostile transmitter is utterly dangerous which obviously calls for response actions......IAF experienced this alot in Op Swift Retort......Mirage 2000s and some other aircraft...

 

[Basel]

For me, not even the missile of S-400, but the radar itself is the biggest challenge. A pilot whose aircraft is getting painted hundreds of kms away from target by an enemy radar would be in a really difficult situation....when to prematurely drop his payload and start evasive maneuvers.......since he will never know when the SAM battery starts firing or what type of missile is being fired....what i have seen and experienced in near-real situations, my aircraft getting painted by a hostile transmitter is utterly dangerous which obviously calls for response actions......IAF experienced this alot in Op Swift Retort......Mirage 2000s and some other aircraft...

What Indian dont understand is Pakistan is not preparing to tackle one Indian system, Pakistan is working to tackle whole Indian AD including their Air power.

 

[HostileInsurgent]

For me, not even the missile of S-400, but the radar itself is the biggest challenge. A pilot whose aircraft is getting painted hundreds of kms away from target by an enemy radar would be in a really difficult situation....when to prematurely drop his payload and start evasive maneuvers.......since he will never know when the SAM battery starts firing or what type of missile is being fired....what i have seen and experienced in near-real situations, my aircraft getting painted by a hostile transmitter is utterly dangerous which obviously calls for response actions......IAF experienced this alot in Op Swift Retort......Mirage 2000s and some other aircraft...

You’re a PAF veteran?

 

[Metal 0-1]

The S-400 has to wait until the Jeff is 240km away to fire. At this point, a 48N6DM is used to bring down the fighter.

JF-17 Block 2 changes things a bit: the fighter isn't detected straight away, with the first ping occurring 315km away from the site. However, even then, the track quality isn't good enough for a shot.

PAF already have 500km+ range ALCMs but more variety of tech is also needed.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Necessary MEASURES and PLATFORMS have already been taken / inducted in order to neutralize these systems once GO AHEAD is received.

It is just not about S 400! it is about layer of protections.

It will never be easy go an destroy the s-400 systems. There will be multiple layer of defense systems from border itself.

It would not be a easy target! NO one says that air defence system is a 100% foolproof but it is called something better then nothing.

 

[Metal 0-1]

Chinese can help us in this regard.
PAF should send it's assets like F-16, Jeff, Mirage and EW patforms(AWACS/DA-20) to China to develop tactics against S-400.

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

Then by that logic any non S-400 air defence is practically useless.
And ya, IAF has bought all 4 missiles.

Heres the thing.. PAF full radar coverage of Pakistan and that too integrated and divided into 2 commands (South and North) which gives em the edge...

It is just not about S 400! it is about layer of protections.

It will never be easy go an destroy the s-400 systems. There will be multiple layer of defense systems from border itself.

It would not be a easy target! NO one says that air defence system is a 100% foolproof but it is called something better then nothing.

Koral land based ew can easily take out those small systems...

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Heres the thing.. PAF full radar coverage of Pakistan and that too integrated and divided into 2 commands (South and North) which gives em the edge...

Koral land based ew can easily take out those small systems...

Boss, it does not work that way!

Take an example - fighter plane uses electronic jammer to protect from missiles but the same way electronic counter-countermeasures use by Missile.

S 400 is part of layers of protections! it is not that Pakistan can go and destroy the s 400 missile systems. before reaching to s 400 missiles systems, they have to deal with other missile systems as well.

There will be 3-4 layers and start from border itself. And, what do you think that if pak will try to destory then Indians will be watching the bollywood movies?

What if india will launch missiles on Pakistani cities as response? Even you don't have protection to protect them!

It is not a so simple as you think!

 

[Bawag]

Replacing the 747 with a JF-17 Block 2 changes things a bit: the fighter isn't detected straight away, with the first ping occurring 315km away from the site. However, even then, the track quality isn't good enough for a shot.
The S-400 has to wait until the Jeff is 240km away to fire. At this point, a 48N6DM is used to bring down the fighter.
Now, pulling out the big guns that the PAF doesn't have (yet), I'm replacing the JF-17 with a stealthy target (a F-35). The detection and engagement range falls to a low 79km. Adding a dedicated VHF radar, the Nebo-SVU, could makes things a bit better.
So, what we see is that even for conventionnal fighter-sized targets like the Jeff, the 400km mark isn't achievable. Even if the 40N6 was able to engage fighters with an high-enough Pk, the sheer size (and RCS) of the JF-17 makes it difficult to engage beyond 240km.
This could be made even more difficult by flying lower and using OECM. Now, if the S-400 cannot intercept fighters at 400km, what can it do? Short answer: a lot of things.
First of all, while it cannot provide air defense over the border unless located very close to the combat zones, it can nontheless provide a temendous amount of protection to Indian assets *in India*.
Located close to an airbase or an important C2 node, the S-400 can protect it from massive air attacks. If located close to the border, the system can act as a barrier to fend off air attacks by fighters too.
Perhaps the most important advantage that the SA-21 will give is to prevent the PAF a "free ride". By making flying high risky, the S-400 will force PAF planners to design more complex missions, with low flight, lighter payloads and increased wear and tear on men and hardware.
In its secondaty BMD role, the S-400 will also give India the capacity to deal with TBMs and SRBMs fired at the front line.
In the long run, it is probable that Russia will put into service a CEC capability for the S-400. Such a capability will likely involve the new A-100, the replacement for the aging A-50. If India can get its hands on some of these, then the 400km-range of the 40N6 will be usable
AWACS, transport and tankers would then be at risk even deep into the Pakistani airspace. However, this capability is likely still years away given how demanding CEC is.
Finally, the S-400 deal allowed India to secure technology transfers in key defense areas. High power radars, very long range missiles, and so on. For 5.5 billions USD, getting that tech and five S-400 systems seems like a killer deal to me.
Source:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1291035586019692545

Not my area of expertise, but time will tell in case of a conflict. I am pretty sure that PAF would be using the swarms of aerial dummy targets (cheap but big enough to be detected by radars) flying towards India at different altitudes to exhaust the AD of enemy.

I read somewhere that IDF at one point was using a $600,000 AD missiles for killing a $3K-4K aerial objects which raised the questions on the cost 2 benefit of IDF approach.